Does you love for the EF make you anti OF unintentionally?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jasonjessica09
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think you and I have a similar outlook.
I tend to be skeptical as well.

The good thing about this type of outlook is that our faith is not easily shaken when priests or religious that we hold in high esteem make mistakes.

And unless something id de fide, we realize that reforms may be in order and we don’t question the Holy Spirit abandoning his Church.
I agree, too often people think that criticising a particular action of a pope or reform is criticising the office of the papacy or even the holy spirit itself. Fair enough if something is expressed in the ordinary magisterium we are supposed to obey it, but if it clearly goes against previous teaching or the infallible magisterium we can question it (politely and charitably) and not be ‘dissident’ or ‘disloyal’ to the church.
They all used the same phrase, which I believe may have come from Augustine.

“I am a child of the Church.”

As long as the pope, the bishop or the superior did not command sin, they went along without thinking about it too much, because they were truly sons or daughters of the Church. They trusted that the pope, bishop or superior would figure it out with the help of grace. The wonderful thing about their lives is that they did not spend time on the things that we do. They spent their time doing three things:
  1. Praying
  2. Serving
  3. Penance
I think that we make too many things important in our lives that at the end of the day are not going to make us saints. Sanctity is achieved through the heroic practice of virtue, detachment and trust in the Blessed Mother who will always lead us to her Son.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br Jr, the only qualification I would make to this is that it is not wrong to question or to think about these issues, after all, many doctors of the church such as St Thomas Aquinas, St Robert Bellarmine and even St Augustine himself did so. Different saints act and are called to do different things, some it is true may just humbly obey and serve trusting and not questioning others however are called to question these things and even state facts that may be unpopular or question the hierarchy, the saints I have cited did so in their theological works.

The beauty of The Church is that there is room for both, but it would be wrong as you often say to apply the example of some saints and apply that to all of them or set it as an example that must be followed by everyone.
 
I agree, too often people think that criticising a particular action of a pope or reform is criticising the office of the papacy or even the holy spirit itself. Fair enough if something is expressed in the ordinary magisterium we are supposed to obey it, but if it clearly goes against previous teaching or the infallible magisterium we can question it (politely and charitably) and not be ‘dissident’ or ‘disloyal’ to the church.

Br Jr, the only qualification I would make to this is that it is not wrong to question or to think about these issues, after all, many doctors of the church such as St Thomas Aquinas, St Robert Bellarmine and even St Augustine himself did so. Different saints act and are called to do different things, some it is true may just humbly obey and serve trusting and not questioning others however are called to question these things and even state facts that may be unpopular or question the hierarchy, the saints I have cited did so in their theological works.

The beauty of The Church is that there is room for both, but it would be wrong as you often say to apply the example of some saints and apply that to all of them or set it as an example that must be followed by everyone.
I don’t disagree with you. However, I’m very conscious of my audience. In this forum, there are too many people who are looking for a loop whole to call into question the authority of the Ordinary Magisterium. They take a statement like yours to mean that they can do just that. That is not what men like St.Robert, St. Augustine or St. Thomas had in mind. In fact, had they been told to “Shut up” by the pope, they would have done so. I’m afraid that the audience that we have in this forum does not include too many Roberts, Augustines and Thomases (sp?). If they’re told to “shut up” they would probably go bonkers. Something that none of these great men would have done, because while they were very intelligent, they were also very submissive to Church authority.

We always have to be very careful what we say to what audience. It can be taken to another end that was not meant to be.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Something that none of these great men would have done, because while they were very intelligent, they were also very submissive to Church authority.
This is an unfortuntate consequence of the delamination of western culture.

In St. Thomas’s day, the Church was an integral part of society. Now, it has been marginalized. It is thought of as its own sphere, which exists alongside of secular society but which secular society remains free to ignore.

The reaction is that the Church perhaps is more hesitant to countenance interference in her affairs. Hence, the sad delay in reacting to the abuse scandals.

In St. Thomas’s day, an offending priest would not have been fired, nor would he have been permitted to slink off into secular society. He probably would have been remanded to a cell in some Benedictine monastery and flogged.

Now, any disagreement immediately raises the spectre of schism or apostasy because we are free to leave. This, to my thinking, sadly makes all debate potentially explosive, but at the same time (paradoxically) devalues debate, because we run into the danger of schism so quickly. Why debate, if one is going to be accused of schism?

While separation of church and state is a given in our society, neither should Catholics forget its artificiality, especially when it is is taken to the present extreme which is more of an apartheid than a separation. It affects us as well as the society that has excluded our Church.
 
I don’t disagree with you. However, I’m very conscious of my audience. In this forum, there are too many people who are looking for a loop whole to call into question the authority of the Ordinary Magisterium. They take a statement like yours to mean that they can do just that. That is not what men like St.Robert, St. Augustine or St. Thomas had in mind. In fact, had they been told to “Shut up” by the pope, they would have done so. I’m afraid that the audience that we have in this forum does not include too many Roberts, Augustines and Thomases (sp?). If they’re told to “shut up” they would probably go bonkers. Something that none of these great men would have done, because while they were very intelligent, they were also very submissive to Church authority.

We always have to be very careful what we say to what audience. It can be taken to another end that was not meant to be.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br Jr

That is true but I’m not entirely sure any of them would have shut up if told to do so purely because the church told them to, if any of them were true to their theology (and we can presume they were) they would only shut up if it was just and proper to do so. Like all saints they were submissive but they would not follow something they believed was unjust or wrong, St Thomas Aquinas and St Robert Bellarmine were clear on this, the former on the limits of obedience, the latter on the limits of papal power. Limits which are often forgotten, so that any sort of disobedience or questioning becomes sinful, as if it is sinful to refuse to obey something which is manifestly unjust or false or to point out that even the papal power has to be exercised within limits.

Yes it is true people here may be looking for an excuse to disobey, I use the word may but on the other hand it is no better to simply obey without question even if it is clear that something is wrong with what we are being told to do or if the person in question has exceeded their powers. And I’ve seen both extremes on this forum, those who think the bishops and pope can do no wrong and that their word is always Gospel and those who question and criticise everything they do. Both are equally problematic.
 
Like all saints they were submissive but they would not follow something they believed was unjust or wrong, St Thomas Aquinas and St Robert Bellarmine were clear on this, the former on the limits of obedience, the latter on the limits of papal power.
I don’t disagree with you or Br Jr but having read some Church history, I seem to think that prior to this century, they were more careful to avoid heresy than anything else. One generally was not called out on his disobedience but whether his beliefs were in line with Church doctrine. A Catholic was generally punished severely, even burned, for preaching heresy. Of course, on the other side, if you disobeyed your monarch, you were beheaded. I don’t know what the punishment was for disobeying your abbott, if that’s the right word.
 
I don’t disagree with you or Br Jr but having read some Church history, I seem to think that prior to this century, they were more careful to avoid heresy than anything else. One generally was not called out on his disobedience but whether his beliefs were in line with Church doctrine. A Catholic was generally punished severely, even burned, for preaching heresy. Of course, on the other side, if you disobeyed your monarch, you were beheaded. I don’t know what the punishment was for disobeying your abbott, if that’s the right word.
I’m sure Br Jr will explain the rather serious problems you got in if you were disobedient and a religious, for secular clergy it was another matter and for laity another matter altogether, still obedience is at the foundation of all holiness. But one must differentiate from mindless obedience and true obedience, the former will obey even when something is manifestly unjust or even sinful, the latter will question and will not do so if it is wrong to do so.

Amongst theologians however I agree, heresy was more ‘important’ than obedience, still I suppose one could say disobediece is in a way a form of heresy.
 
I’m sure Br Jr will explain the rather serious problems you got in if you were disobedient and a religious, for secular clergy it was another matter and for laity another matter altogether, still obedience is at the foundation of all holiness. But one must differentiate from mindless obedience and true obedience, the former will obey even when something is manifestly unjust or even sinful, the latter will question and will not do so if it is wrong to do so.

Amongst theologians however I agree, heresy was more ‘important’ than obedience, still I suppose one could say disobediece is in a way a form of heresy.
The rule on obedience remains the same for religious and laity. You must always avoid sin. If you are commanded to sin, you cannot obey.

Outside of sin, you may be commanded to do what in your find may seem to be foolish or lacking in good judgment. You are still bound to obey. This is where people like Thomas, Augustine and Robert were very different from us. They knew the line. They often did obey what was foolish and poor judgment, because they were not being commanded to sin.

Remember the old saying, “What is true cannot be true here and false there.”

Before Thomas and Robert, Francis wrote in the admonitions to his three orders what he learned from Benedict and Augustine.

And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfil the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor.

These great men lived by this principle. Today, we’re not too willing to make this sacrifice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
yes I do think that it does this, and it also confuses me because I love the TLM and then I start reading things like Open Letter to Confused Catholics to help confuse me. I think that I got way to traditional for a while and while I still love and even prefer the TLM I’m starting to feel like the NO Mass is ok too. St. Josemaria Escriva is helping to guide me.
 
yes I do think that it does this, and it also confuses me because I love the TLM and then I start reading things like Open Letter to Confused Catholics to help confuse me. I think that I got way to traditional for a while and while I still love and even prefer the TLM I’m starting to feel like the NO Mass is ok too. St. Josemaria Escriva is helping to guide me.
St. José María Escrivá is awesome. Follow his lead.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The rule on obedience remains the same for religious and laity. You must always avoid sin. If you are commanded to sin, you cannot obey.

Outside of sin, you may be commanded to do what in your find may seem to be foolish or lacking in good judgment. You are still bound to obey. This is where people like Thomas, Augustine and Robert were very different from us. They knew the line. They often did obey what was foolish and poor judgment, because they were not being commanded to sin.

Remember the old saying, “What is true cannot be true here and false there.”

Before Thomas and Robert, Francis wrote in the admonitions to his three orders what he learned from Benedict and Augustine.

And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfil the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor.

These great men lived by this principle. Today, we’re not too willing to make this sacrifice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br Jr

Are not religious bound to a stricter definition of obedience than laity, is that not the ‘point’ of the vow of the obedience? and the same with the ‘promises’ secular clergy make?

As for St Thomas and so forth, I see both people who would go further than they did as regards disobedience and people who do less than they did and obey anything. I can see no difference between the two. For that matter St Robert Bellarmine and even Bl Cardinal Newman went a little further than ‘you must obey if its not a sin’ they laid out more stringent limits for papal power beyond which it was legitimate to disobey.

Simply put if the person was acting ‘ultra vires’ you didnt have to obey, no matter who they were.
 
Simply put if the person was acting ‘ultra vires’ you didnt have to obey, no matter who they were.
Gentlemen, if I might interject - the discussion in this OP is whether attachment to the EF causes a dislike of the OF.

We all know that the de-facto replacement of the EF with the OF (though when it happened, the EF was sort of the OF and vice versa) is unique in Church history. It had not happened before on such a scale. Moreover, the disintegration of the Church in its historical heartlands that coincided with the substitution of the OF for the EF is also unprecedented.

Brother JR is appealing to the high value of obedience in the medieval and renaissance Church.

JMJ is appealing to the aversion to heresy - or anything even approaching it, during the same periods.

You are both correct. We cannot know how St. Thomas or St. Robert Bellarmine or St. Francis de Sales would have reacted to the substitution of one form of the mass for another.
That was not their cross to bear.

As I have read your posts and replies to one another, I have puzzled why neither of you have anwered the question of the OP completely satisfactorilly - given that you both raise points that are objectively completely correct.

Perhaps the different mass forms under discussion have come to symbolize a set of ancillary beliefs about the Church, morality, and society, that neither form was ever meant to carry. People are not really reacting to the mass per se, but to the beliefs each form seems to represent. Hence the passionate nature of the debate.

Because I suffer from the need to be literal, let me venture guess that I hope will illustrate what I am trying to express: If St. Francis could come back to us for a week, I expect he he would not be bothered by the OF. He would be very bothered by the Cathedral in Los Angeles. He would probably also be bothered by New St. Peters. The indictment he would level against the way many Catholic lay people live would be even more severe.

In my previous post, I suggested that there is a common denominator between the OF and the EF partisans, or at least most of them. I do not think that when Christ exhorted us to love our enemies, that He meant we should not know them as well.
 
Because I suffer from the need to be literal, let me venture guess that I hope will illustrate what I am trying to express: If St. Francis could come back to us for a week, I expect he he would not be bothered by the OF. He would be very bothered by the Cathedral in Los Angeles. He would probably also be bothered by New St. Peters. The indictment he would level against the way many Catholic lay people live would be even more severe.
Actually, if he came back, no one would ever now his position on any of these things. Francis was a very wise man. He kept his opinions to himself. He preached virtue and avoidance of sin. He was also very diplomatic. He avoided ever confronting anyone, denouncing anything, or stating a preference for anything.

There are very few things on which he expressed his preference. He bound his sons and daughters, under penalty of excommunication from ever expressing opinions contrary to his own, the pope or a bishop, without permission to do so. He prohibited all forms of debate on matters concerning ecclesiastical life. When he went to the Lateran Council, he refused to vote on the grounds that he was not there to take a position on any issue on the table, but he was there to model for others how to be Catholic. He was very comfortable telling everyone at the Council that he would not vote.

This was a man who abhorred all kinds of debates and argumentation. He constantly reminded his sons and daughters to make sure that everyone who saw them, saw in them men of peace and men who are conciliatory.

I believe that it is this use of charm to bring out the best in people and bring about change that made him one of the most beloved saints in the Church and raised his religious family to become the largest religious family in the Church to this day.

Maybe, it is this charm that we are lacking. All too often we try to make corrections without charm, without a smile, instead we put anger into our corrections or even hostility.

Francis certainly became angry with his brothers and sisters and was even physical with them, but never outside of the community. I think this would be the man who would just roll his eyes and go about his business of living the Gospel in obedience, without property and doing penance. He was very good at “eye rolling”. There are writings by the early friars and sisters that describe him taking a deep breadth when something displeased him and then making some kind of humorous remark to regulate his reaction. He had a wonderful sense of humor and an incredible amount of patience. This was not something that he was born with. He worked very hard at this all his life.

I think that if he were walking down the streets of LA looking for a church and saw the cathedral, his only question would have been whether or not there was a tabernacle there where he could pray. If he didn’t like the design, he would simply roll his eyes, smile and walk in to say his prayers.

We know that he did not like the mass of his time. There are several indicators of this. He banned Gregorian Chant from mass and the LOTH. He asked the pope to give him another missal, which the pope gave him. However, he did so in a manner that was so subtle that no one realized what was happening until it happened. It was Clare who later told us about his aversion to Gregorian Chant. It was Illuminato who later told us about his dislike for the mass of his diocese, because it was too complicated and required too many books and cards. Francis simply instituted the changes without making a public announcement. He shared his opinions within the community, never with the world.

Pope Gregory IX would later tell of their conversations while he was still Cardinal Hugolino. It is very clear that there were many things on which he had opinion, but not one knew until after his death, when his friends revealed them. He limited his statements to what was happening within his community, not the Church around him. He was not one to decry anything. That was not his style and it was a style that he encouraged his sons and daughters to avoid. This was a fascinating man, who transformed the world and the lives of millions of people from the 13th century to this day, without making a fuss over anything except poverty and obedience.

I believe that many Catholics today would not like him, because he would never answer their questions. He modeled how things should be, rather than explain it. We like to hear things in black and white. That is not Francis of Assisi or his order.

Other Catholics would love him, because of his charm, wit, sense of humor and ability to rise above the stuff that worries most of us.

He certainly is not a man about whom people would feel indifferent. Some would love him and others would hate him, not greys.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top