Does your Christian Church/tradition teach about hell?

[Joshua27]

[Prov 9:18] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 15:11] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 15:24] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 23:14] pit hell sheol death Sheol grave death death
[Prov 27:20] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 30:16] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave N/A
[Eccl 9:10] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Cant. 8:6] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Isa 5:14] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave# hell
[Isa 14:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 14:11] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave nil Hades
[Isa 14:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 28:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol pit grave Hades
[Isa 38:10] grave hell sheol death grave grave dead grave
[Isa 38:18] grave hell sheol grave grave grave dead grave
[Isa 57:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol hell dead hell
[Eze 31:15] grave hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:16] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:17] hell hell sheol grave realm of the dead grave grave hell
[Eze 32:21] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 32:27] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave death sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades

These translations show that grave, hell and sheol are used unterchangeable as the same meaning; “death condition” (oblivion), not a place of torment.

---

As far as Lazarus and the Rich Man passage…

Now…for the best context of this situation, it is best to start at the beginning of Luke chapter 15…even before verses 19-31 of chapter 16.

[Luke 15:1] Then drew nearer unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
[Luke 15:2] And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying “this man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
[Luke 15:3] And He spake this parable unto them, saying “[Luke 15:4-10] Statement on Sinners being like Lost Sheep”

[Luke 15:11] And He said, "[Luke 15:12-32 Parable: The Prodical Son]
A certain man had two sons…"

[Luke 16:1] And He said also unto his disciples, "[Luke 16:1-13 Parable: The Two Masters]
There was a certain rich man…"

[Luke 16:14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

[Luke 16:15] And he said unto them [Pharisees], “[Luke 16:15-18] Statement on Those who justifying themselves of high esteem among men are abominable to God”.

[Luke 16:19] "There was a certain rich man…" as Christ began to explain the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Christ first gave a statement and then parables to explain his statement. This was Christ’s literary technique (style):

Lesson 1 (Lost Sheep); Parable follows
Lesson 2 (Two Masters); Parable follows
Lesson 3 (Too High Self-Esteem); (what follows next?)…

The first two stories are accepted by most people as parables which explain his first two statements, so why is the third - which starts the same exact way as the first two - considered actual truth? Why would we assume Messiah suddenly changed his literary technique (the manner by which he was teaching) upon an interruption by the Pharisees?

This is another parable. What Christ actually says about the real Lazarus when he dies (and is dead for 4 days) is “Lazarus sleeps”. Christ doesn’t describe him being anywhere.

<Now let me tackle your other passages before you think I’m ducking those too>

 

[Joshua27]

1 Samuel 28:11-15 - The Witch of Endor

It is kind of strange that the word ‘disturb’ would be used. How could it be that the spirit of Samuel was ‘disturbed’ if it had not existed in the first place? Not only that, but she said she saw a divine being coming out of the ground. Why a ‘being’? Why not a life-force? If this life-force has a consciousness such that it in itself is a being then you have to explain why it isn’t an immortal spirit?

1 Peter 3: 8 & 19-20

Christ, “though dead in the flesh, was made alive in the spirit”. Interesting phrase right? Not only that, but we see that there were spirits in prison. None of this looks good for you.

btw, the word for soul in Greek is psyche.

[You’re right, Psyche is greek for soul (while Autou means being/person), but that still proves there IS a distinction between the words used for “soul” and “spirit”.]

I’m going to answer these quotes together. What are Angels and Demons (as types of beings)? The answer is “THEY are spirits”. We know from scripture that demons are called “unlean spirits” [Matthew 12: 43-45] and angels are called “ministering spirits” [Hebrews 1:14] (plus there are also fallen Angels [spirits]). These types of beings DO exist…God is even called most Holy Spirit…but this isn’t what we are. We are “souls”.

Again, if we just step back for a sec and read this word, “immortal soul” (which currently promotes the belief in “a non-extinguishing spirit-form of a human being who sheds their physical body”), we must ask "what does immortal mean?

We agree that:

Death = “to expire; to end; to no longer be; to perish”.
Immortality = “to never expire; to never end; to always be; eternal life”

Let’s set aside the fact that “soul” and “spirit” are scripturally established as two separate elements…Let’s say that the “soul/spirit” of a person is immortal…so tell me, were we always immortal? Because even if one believes that the “soul/spirit” of a person is immortal, scripture defines the “demarcation line” between when immortality is available and, when it is not:

[John 3:16] “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever should believe in him would not perish, but have eternal life.”

So here the condition of immortality (eternal life) is “to believe in God’s begotten Son”, which logically means that those who do not believe in God’s Son do not possess immortality (eternal life) and thus [in the words of scripture] perish (extinguish). They do not go elsewhere [like to Hell] as immortal beings.

Now notice that Christ didn’t appear (to die for us) until 4000 or so years after the time of Genesis; after Satan’s deception…so what about all of those people who physically died in between (BTW - Necromancy of Samuel is a defined abomination [Deut 18:10-12])? Are we saying they possessed immortality BEFORE Christ even appeared? If so, this belief makes Christ’s gift a lie.

Matthew 17:1-4 - The Transfiguration of Christ, with Elijah and Moses there talking with Him

Elijah ascended to heaven. This is fine. But Moses was dead as per Deuteronomy

…5Then Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab, at the Lord’s command.

So we see here the same Moses that died is now here with Jesus on the mountain. Now I’m sure you will say that God brought Moses back to life, but that isn’t indicated anywhere in the verse or in the bible.

Actually, I was going to say that this was simply a vision.

Start again at Matthew 17:1 and go all the way down to verse 9, where it says:

[Matthew 17:9] "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, “Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

…you can even read their further dialogue where Christ tells the disciples that “Elias” has already come (in John the Baptist). So how could Elijah be on the mountain if he was already John the Baptist, unless it is indeed a vision like Christ says?

---

The problem is death, not hell.

 

[TheQuestioner]

[Prov 9:18] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 15:11] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 15:24] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 23:14] pit hell sheol death Sheol grave death death
[Prov 27:20] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 30:16] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave N/A
[Eccl 9:10] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Cant. 8:6] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Isa 5:14] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave# hell
[Isa 14:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 14:11] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave nil Hades
[Isa 14:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 28:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol pit grave Hades
[Isa 38:10] grave hell sheol death grave grave dead grave
[Isa 38:18] grave hell sheol grave grave grave dead grave
[Isa 57:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol hell dead hell
[Eze 31:15] grave hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:16] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:17] hell hell sheol grave realm of the dead grave grave hell
[Eze 32:21] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 32:27] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave death sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades

These translations show that grave, hell and sheol are used unterchangeable as the same meaning; “death condition” (oblivion), not a place of torment.

---

As far as Lazarus and the Rich Man passage…

Now…for the best context of this situation, it is best to start at the beginning of Luke chapter 15…even before verses 19-31 of chapter 16.

[Luke 15:1] Then drew nearer unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
[Luke 15:2] And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying “this man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
[Luke 15:3] And He spake this parable unto them, saying “[Luke 15:4-10] Statement on Sinners being like Lost Sheep”

[Luke 15:11] And He said, “[Luke 15:12-32 Parable: The Prodical Son]
A certain man had two sons…”

[Luke 16:1] And He said also unto his disciples, “[Luke 16:1-13 Parable: The Two Masters]
There was a certain rich man…”

[Luke 16:14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

[Luke 16:15] And he said unto them [Pharisees], “[Luke 16:15-18] Statement on Those who justifying themselves of high esteem among men are abominable to God”.

[Luke 16:19] "There was a certain rich man…" as Christ began to explain the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Christ first gave a statement and then parables to explain his statement. This was Christ’s literary technique (style):

Lesson 1 (Lost Sheep); Parable follows
Lesson 2 (Two Masters); Parable follows
Lesson 3 (Too High Self-Esteem); (what follows next?)…

The first two stories are accepted by most people as parables which explain his first two statements, so why is the third - which starts the same exact way as the first two - considered actual truth? Why would we assume Messiah suddenly changed his literary technique (the manner by which he was teaching) upon an interruption by the Pharisees?

This is another parable. What Christ actually says about the real Lazarus when he dies (and is dead for 4 days) is “Lazarus sleeps”. Christ doesn’t describe him being anywhere.

<Now let me tackle your other passages before you think I’m ducking those too>

hmmm problem here is that parables are told in order to help common people understand a concept in their own language. The fact that Jesus mentions a hell means that the belief in such existed during His time. His parables may not be necessarily true but the concepts behind them would definitely be true (otherwise his point would be moot), so your justification that “it was only a parable” means nothing. Also note that Christian traditions and beliefs are based off of Pharisaic Judaism, hence the belief in a hell would have transferred over.

Sleeping was interchangable with death. In Greek mythology Sleep and Death were brothers. Christ need not mention the real Lazarus was anywhere, because He was about to come back to life. (btw, Lazarus would not have necessarily been in heaven or hell at that point anyway, because once you pass from the temporal to the eternal your state becomes eternal too. Those who are caught up to heaven or hell receive visions, they don’t actually go there, I would say at least)

 

[TheQuestioner]

I cut your quotes to save on space, but again these passages talk about the lake of fire where people, the false prophet and the beast and devil are going to be tossed. This is the place of “torment” as described in scripture…a place that currently isn’t Hell nor discuss as being a place where disobedient people go right now (before the end). And for Matthew, the fact that the fire never dies says nothing about the people that are in it.

Fair enough

This is the problem, Hell is never described as being “unquencheable fire” in the whole of scripture. We associate the two (Hell and LOF) through generations of tradition, which is unfounded in scripture.

But Mark 9, if you read well says:

Mark 9:42 And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire

I guess you missed it, but right there hell is described as unquenchable fire.

But “true” the word used for hell IS Hates (greek), which means “abode or realm or place of the dead”…the same meaning as described in the Old Testament using the Hebrew word, “Sheol”.

Jesus does not use the word Sheol in Mark, but Gehenna (Latin Gehennam and Greek γέεννα) a term in Christ’s day used to describe the opposite of the coming Kingdom (Olam Ha-Ba) (not the same as Sheol, which was more like Hades as you stated).

It was a place of torment, during which in Christ’s day seems to be a place where people could remain forever (In the Talmud, which was made some time after Christ’s day, 5 people are said to be there for all eternity)

 

[TheQuestioner]

Spirit = Power of Life
Body = Housing (temple) for the Power
Soul = Being; Alive; a Person [as opposed to a corpse]

Nice to see the Jehovah Witnesses come out to the forum.

Anyway, you forget one part of the soul. The psyche also has an intellect. It is a person with free will. If the Spirit was simply the Power of Life, then there would be no difference between people and animals. Not only that, but non-physical beings exist. The Angels. These have been traditionally referred to as spirits.

1 Samuel 16

14 Now the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. 15And Saul’s servants said to him, ‘See now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.

Now using your definition, it would be that an “evil life force” tormented Saul. This makes no sense. Spirit here is used to denote a non-physical being. You cannot say an evil “energy” tormented Saul because energy itself is physical. Remember E=MC^2? Energy thus is a physical part of the universe. A non-physical spirit thus cannot be an “energy”.

1 Kings 22

19 Then Micaiah* said, ‘Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20And the Lord said, “Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?” Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, **“I will entice him.” **22“How?” the Lord asked him. He replied, “I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.” Then the Lord * said, “You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.” 23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.’

The spirit is clearly not God, because it speaks separately from them. So we see that spirits can denote non-physical beings. Hence spirit does not necessarily denote life force. Even if it did, with the passages presented it is clear that these life-forces can be beings that exist as persons, even without physical bodies.

[Gen. 2:7] And God formed man of the dust of the ground [the body], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life “Ruach”, Hebrew for "wind or spirit’]; and man became a living soul “Nephesh”, Hebrew for “being”].

So the equation was established: Spirit + Body = Person (a Soul)

Sure, except not so much soul as a living soul.

Paul even indirectly made the same distinction between “spirit” and “soul” in his first letter to the Thessalonians:

[1 Thes. 5:23] “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit “Pneuma”, Greek for “wind or spirit”] and soul “Auton”, Greek for “property of self”] and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our lord Jesus Christ.”

…So there’s a difference between “spirit” and “a soul (a person)”. But many will turn to passage Ecc. 12:7 in order to explain that people go to different locations after death…but look at the words used in the passage:

[Ecclesiastes 12:7] “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit “Ruach”, Hebrew for "wind or spirit’] shall return unto God who gave it.”

…Notice it doesn’t say anything about “Nephesh” (hebrew) or “Auton” (greek) [the living soul/being]. The equation is not satisfied without both constants: without the spirit, we can’t BE; and without the body, we can’t BE.

I didn’t raise Ecclesiastes 12:7, so no need to bring it up. Yes, the word used can also be translated as “breath” here. Still, you cannot use 2 verses to denote the whole of Jewish and Christian theology on the soul. If you want to get into a verse fight, you’ll realize quickly that I have way more ammunition than you. Also note that traditional Christian interpretations work with all these verses, while your interpretation contradicts much of the verses I posted.

There is more in scripture to support that “spirit” is not “an immortal soul” but “lifeforce” (energy). And because of Adam’s sin, that lifeforce began to fade [along with physical death]…we were losing both parts to the equation, until [like you’ve said] Christ came and offered “eternal life” “Pneuma” (greek) or “Ruach” (hebrew)]; the Spirit part.

This offering of Eternal life does not require Christ’s death and Resurrection if there is no immortal soul. God can simply just not let the faithful die.Your point makes the sacrifice of Christ unnecessary.

[For another example: Energy powers your phone. Surely, your phone is physically decaying but it won’t physically expire any time soon [unless you damage it]…however, the energy within its battery also slowly fades until expired. But then you plug your phone into the power source, not restoring your phone’s original energy (which is gone), but filling your phone with new energy.]

Energy is physical. E=MC^2 proves that Energy is a physical thing in the universe (even if it can exist in a wave)

 

[TheQuestioner]

We connect to Christ (the Vine/power source), however, we still require a “non-decaying” housing (body) for this eternal life (because we still must satify the equation), which is the reward upon Christ’s Second Advent. I find that ALL points and passages in scripture finally sync with this view.

You see the problem here right? You took merely 2 passages and tried to use them to prove the whole of Christian and Jewish theology. There are many passages (like the one in 1 Peter) that turn should by all means turn your confidence a bit. I would like to see you address these. The traditional interpretation of the Christian afterlife works well with all these verses (you have yet to show how It would not), while I have pointed out time and again how yours does not, and becomes problematic when we deal with Salvation. I don’t think you realize what not having an Immortal Spirit does to our salvation story, and maybe your claims and opinions are a bit short sited, but again, maybe you accept this and have a different view of salvation. There would essentially be no need for Christ to have died in order to remove sin since sin is a non-physical thing and therefore should not exclude anyone from eternal salvation if there is no non-physical self. Even if there is a non-physical aspect of the material self you would have to answer why sin would necessarily exclude anyone from a physical paradise. You would also have to then explain why it would necessarily exclude anyone from continual existence (if one can continue to exist with sin, why must they suddenly have to be wiped out of existence?). If there is no non-physical self then what would necessarily stop everyone who ends up in New Jerusalem from sinning again? (there is a Catholic explanation for this, but it requires the traditional view of the afterlife. How do you explain angels?

Well, no…I never said there is no spirit. I said there is no “immortal” soul. What is the point of resurrecting people and judging them if judgment has already been made pursuant to the belief that people are already alive either in heaven or hell? To be in either place suggests that a “determination (judgment)” has already been made upon their death [which does not sync with scripture that says ‘judgment comes at the end of days by Christ’]…and if people are already immortal, the “reward” [eternal life (i.e. “immortality”)] spoken of by Christ and by Paul is useless…if we’ve always had it all of this time.

Simply put, human beings are creatures that are both spiritual and material beings. In order for humans to fully receive our reward we require our bodies (in a weird way emotions are attached to bodies only, but this is another topic). Also, in order to receive the fullness of our punishment we need our bodies (physical pain is not present in the non-physical world). It only makes sense. We are created with our bodies and are living souls. Our bodies are dead without our spirits and our spirits are not complete without our bodies. Thus the Resurrection. Also the second judgment, while you are right in that it will not change your fate, is done to reveal all truth of all things. Everything will be revealed. Everything. Every last thought and inner motive. Everyone will know, every question answered and every excuse put to rest.

 

[Joshua27]

Nice to see the Jehovah Witnesses come out to the forum.

[hmm…if only it were true.]

Anyway, you forget one part of the soul. The psyche also has an intellect. It is a person with free will. If the Spirit was simply the Power of Life, then there would be no difference between people and animals. Not only that, but non-physical beings exist. The Angels. These have been traditionally referred to as spirits.

Wait now…You’re arguing against a point I never made. God is a Spirit, and God is Life. I never said spirit doesn’t exist because if I did, that would mean I’m also saying that God doesn’t exist. I said (and have been saying) that “spirit” exists. What I arguing against is the "immortal"ness aspect of us.

1 Samuel 16

14 Now the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. 15And Saul’s servants said to him, ‘See now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.

Now using your definition, it would be that an “evil life force” tormented Saul. This makes no sense. Spirit here is used to denote a non-physical being. You cannot say an evil “energy” tormented Saul because energy itself is physical. Remember E=MC^2? Energy thus is a physical part of the universe. A non-physical spirit thus cannot be an “energy”.

Well, Jacob physically wrestled with an Angel [a spirit], which resulted in a real physical limp. How is this possible if spirits are non-physical?

Matter and Energy are indeed interchangeable (neither created or destroyed), which begs another question, "how did the physical universe (with every physical thing in it) come to be from nothing based on this equation? The answer is, “it came from something…someone…someone real [a Spirit]”. Now, no one on this planet can pretend to have the full equation that completes “energy = mass times the square of light” and indeed the equation is NOT complete (as advanced mathematicians will attest to). So no one can effectively use Einstein’s equation for or against the argument.

1 Kings 22

19 Then Micaiah said, ‘Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20And the Lord said, “Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?” Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, **“I will entice him.” **22“How?” the Lord asked him. He replied, “I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.” Then the Lord said, “You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.” 23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.’

The spirit is clearly not God, because it speaks separately from them. So we see that spirits can denote non-physical beings. Hence spirit does not necessarily denote life force. Even if it did, with the passages presented it is clear that these life-forces can be beings that exist as persons, even without physical bodies.

…Wait a sec…I think I’m beginning to understand your argument…

You’re arguing against my distinction between “Spirit, Body, and Soul” “that one can’t exist without both body and spirit”] by using the above passages (showing how those “spirits” indeed exist without bodies), right?

I agree with you. Those spirits DO exist as living beings with wills (though without bodies). But here’s my point:

Were Are Not Them. We Were Not Made Like Them. We Are Humans.

We are Hybrids…We are a fusion between dust and spirit. We (particularly) can not BE without both…which says nothing about anything else that IS (as one thing or another). We are not made like the angels (or other spirits) because we’re not spirits. We were made a little lower. We are not made like the animals (or other physicals) because we’re not physical. We are made a little higher. We are that notch between both. We are Souls. A x B = AB. We are AB. We can not be AB without both A and B.

I didn’t raise Ecclesiastes 12:7, so no need to bring it up. Yes, the word used can also be translated as “breath” here. Still, you cannot use 2 verses to denote the whole of Jewish and Christian theology on the soul. If you want to get into a verse fight, you’ll realize quickly that I have way more ammunition than you. Also note that traditional Christian interpretations work with all these verses, while your interpretation contradicts much of the verses I posted.

Ammunition? Well if you think so, don’t hold back. Let’s see it. Besides, I never conveyed that you raised Ecc. (nor did I ever raised any of the verses you first spouted to me). Whether or not I brought up a verse didn’t matter to you when you offered yours to prove your point, so don’t think to set double standards for me. In fact, what’s evident is if I show a human error in overlooking a verse you offer, you’re quick to jump to conclusions (believing me to have no answer for it, though I disproved all others).

Accordingly, let me address 1 Peter 3 with my reply to your last posts…

 

[Joshua27]

1 Peter 3

8For Christ also suffered* for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you* to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight people, were saved through water.

Christ, though dead in the flesh, was made alive in the spirit. Interesting phrase right? Not only that, but we see that there were spirits in prison. None of this looks good for you.

Point 1: Christ. …Christ. It’s talking about Christ, the Son of God. Are you trying to use this passage to prove that we also are made alive in the spirit after our flesh is put to death? But this says “HE” was put to death but made alive in spirit (because he suffered for our sins).

Point 2 (additional passage): John 3:13 should put a sufficient stamp of acceptance on my argument:

“No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” Spoken by Christ himself. This passage not only supports my argument, but it supports how 1 Peter 3 is also accurate (while still not applying to us; human beings).

Point 3: Notice that the passage 1 Peter 3 refers to a “former time” - the time of Noah and his ark - when these spirits were disobedient to God (prior to entering into the prison). So if we venture back to the story of Noah [starting at **Genesis 6:1] look what we read:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, [2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. [3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. [4] There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men and, they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Job 38:7 then shows that the phrase “sons of God” was another name for “angels”, the particular angels from the time of Noah were disobedient (fallen) angels who went against the natural order and had intercourse with human women, creating offspring that were violent abominations of life on the earth. This is how demons were first made.

The flood killed the bodies of these abominations but they don’t die as easily as we [when the material body expires] because they were also seeds of angels, so these “unclean spirits” were sent to the pit/abyss (the same pit referred to in Rev. 9:1 and Luke 8:30-31) to await the fire of judgement (LOF) which will utterly destroy them.

<

Luke 8:30 “Jesus demanded, “What is your name?” “Legion,” he replied, for he was filled with many demons.” [31] The demons kept begging Jesus not to send them into the bottomless pit [abyss]."

Rev. 9:1 “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [where demons like Locust come out in the following verses].”

>

…So 1 Peter 3 isn’t referring to normal humans either, but demons. Christ ministered to the demons in prison.

[snipped] I don’t think you realize what not having an Immortal Spirit does to our salvation story, [snip]. There would essentially be no need for Christ to have died in order to remove sin since sin is a non-physical thing and therefore should not exclude anyone from eternal salvation if there is no non-physical self.

Do you mean “salvation” in terms of “going to heaven”? There is a need for Christ’s act if the problem is Death. The goal is for God come down to earth, as God’s eternal dwelling place is with man (paradise on earth) [Rev. 21:1-3].

Even if there is a non-physical aspect of the material self you would have to answer why sin would necessarily exclude anyone from a physical paradise.

You would also have to then explain why it would necessarily exclude anyone from continual existence (if one can continue to exist with sin, why must they suddenly have to be wiped out of existence?).

1 John 1:5 “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” No darkness (sin) can exist in the presence of Light (God). God’s coming to live with us because he loves us. But in his very presence, sin (and anywhere sin resides) is utterly destroyed by default…which is why - in the days before Christ - no one could step foot in the Holy of Holies (under normal circumstances) while God was in there or they immediately die…because they were dark with sin. This is why Satan is called a “Murderer from the [very] beginning” [John 8:44]. He caused the problem of Death.

If there is no non-physical self then what would necessarily stop everyone who ends up in New Jerusalem from sinning again? (there is a Catholic explanation for this, but it requires the traditional view of the afterlife).

1 John 3:9 “Those who have been born into God’s family do not commit sin, because God’s seed Christ] is in them. So they can’t sin, because they are children of God.”