Does your non Catholic or Protestant belief, discounts the first 1500 years of Christians before your Christian faith began?

[Reformed]

You have been engaging in protestant apologetics since you been here so I am not sure why you are saying what you are saying above? Is it to get aour of the reality, that yes, the Church Fathers taught what the Catholic Church teaches and, thus the early Christian faith is more likely Catholic than Calvinist?

I stopped reading apologetic books about 8 years ago. It’s really not about Calvinism or the Roman Catholic Church. It’s about the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Check out this verse as a fellow Christian.

For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

 

[With_Questions]

If you are a non Catholic or Protestant; And you believe your Christian faith is the Truth that Jesus left here on earth, and built his church upon your faith?

I don’t understand what you are asking? Are you assuming that I believe my Christian faith is the true Christian faith that Jesus built His church upon as opposed to the Christian faith of those who may believe differently than I do?

If that is what you are assuming, that is not the case.
explain why the first 1500 years of Christians who walked the earth before your Non Catholic or Protestant Christian faith began, can deny your Truth of your Christian faith to these first Christians who many of them went to their death joyfully for their Christian faith that does not reflect your non catholic or protestant christian belief’s?

Again I don’t know what you are asking? Are you assuming that I believe Christians of the first 1500 years of church history may not be Christian because they may or may not agree with what I believe.

Again, that is not the case.
Can you justify why your Christianity changed from these 1500 years of Christians who lived and died for their Christian faith, and why you dont practice Christianity the same as they did, and yet believe your Christianity supersedes these first 1500 years of Christians?

Peace

It sounds like you are assuming:
(1) Christianity did not change at all for 1500 years from the times of the apostles to the reformation.
(2) The Christianity that I practice is a departure of the Christian faith as practiced consistently for the first 1500 years
(3) And that my Christian faith supersedes the faith as practiced by Christians for the first 1500 years.

Why do you believe that this is the case?

Do you know of any historians that do not have an agenda that would agree with your assumptions here?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

While I understand your position, I’m not so sure each and every Christian “believed” exactly the same. For the most part during that time many if not most Christians were illiterate so the only teaching they had was from the established church…so since the established church was telling them what shape their faith should take, I guess I would agree with that…however, for Friends it’s not adhering to certain “beliefs” or “dogmas” that “make us the same”, but living in our world as “incarnations” of the Life of Christ. Being a Christian is much more than “believing” but is more about doing.

If your beliefs, cause you to be more Christ like, kinder, gentler, more patient with others…if your beliefs inspire you to show mercy and gentleness…if your world becomes a better place because you have brought peace to a difficult situation, so much the better.

I have no desire to negate your belief in your church or in it’s practice…and I probably couldn’t even if I wanted to and tried.

Where ones life brings Christ to those one meet in the daily of life for me is the true test of whether I do “believe the same thing” or not…for those first disciples wanted nothing more than to let their Light shine before all men…if that is the desire and practice established for the first 1500 years and embraced, then yes, it does matter…but if it entails following the same ritual or any empty form that has lost touch with the world we live in…it is of no value to me except as an historical oddity.

Very well put. The item here is that you believe you have the same Christian Love, but is it from these early Christians from the apostles. For one many of these that could read and teach the apostolic teachings many went to their death for this faith. Are you willing to go to your death as a martyr with joy as these past Christians did for your Christian faith of today if a circumstance should arise? I pray we never see these days again, but I am trying to make a point. Is your Christian faith bring you gain in death as the first Christians believed?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t think anyone can claim beliefs and practices the same as the first 1500 years… even Catholics. There have been Councils since that time.

I beg to differ on this account for the fact is; I as a Catholic practicing in the Latin Rite confess the same Creed of beliefs and practice the same belief’s as did these Christians for the first 1500 years, So yes Catholics today say “AMEN” to the same belief the “AMEN” pronounced and believed in for the first 1500 years. The councils you bring up, only defended these apostolic belief’s not invent them, secondly the councils clarified and confirmed the apostolic Oral teachings and then wrote them down for example the Didache a first century document giving instructions to the Mass as we practice today as Catholics.

But why does your Christianity differ from these first 1500 years of Christians?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t understand what you are asking? Are you assuming that I believe my Christian faith is the true Christian faith that Jesus built His church upon as opposed to the Christian faith of those who may believe differently than I do?

Not really, the question is? Does your Christianity today reflect the first 1500 years of Christianity? if it doesn’t? Then why do you practice Christianity different from the first 1500 years of Christianity? You discuss your Christianity here and why it agrees or differentiates from the first 1500 years of Christianity?

It sounds like you are assuming:
(1) Christianity did not change at all for 1500 years from the times of the apostles to the reformation.
(2) The Christianity that I practice is a departure of the Christian faith as practiced consistently for the first 1500 years
(3) And that my Christian faith supersedes the faith as practiced by Christians for the first 1500 years

Do you know of any historians that do not have an agenda that would agree with your assumptions here?

**Why do you need an opinion of a historian to share your own Christian faith? Is not recorded history enough?

I can not assume what you think your Christianity to be. If you have an opinion of the first 1500 years of Christianity or facts to prove that their were many Christian churches for the first 1500 years by all means indulge the forum. Can you explain were your Chrisitanity came from then? if not from the reformation? The question is put for those also who have an argument against the first 1500 years of Christianity and believe their Christianity is the correct one or supersedes the first 1500 years of Christianity, if this does not apply to you, I can understand your position. But please understand the post addresses more than one Christianity of belief’s that exist today, I did not want to mention the number of different Christian denominations, but to hear and learn from those how one’s Christianity of belief’s agree or disagree with the first 1500 years of Christianity.

I believe this is forum where one at this post has the opportunity to Share Jesus from his or her Christian tradition or faith.**

 

[With_Questions]

**Why do you need an opinion of a historian to share your own Christian faith? Is not recorded history enough?
**
It depends on the question being asked I suppose. I don’t know what you are asking to be honest.
Gabriel of 12;4209443:

I can not assume what you think your Christianity to be. If you have an opinion of the first 1500 years of Christianity or facts to prove that their were many Christian churches for the first 1500 years by all means indulge the forum.

I don’t have a firm opinion yet on the first 1500 years of Christianity yet since I have not studied the topic in depth enough to have an intelligent and informed opinion.

However, I have read some on this topic and have an opinion on what I have read. However, I am open to changing my opinion as I learn more facts.

 

[O.S.Luke]

But why does your Christianity differ from these first 1500 years of Christians?

It’s not “my Christianity.” It’s ours.

 

[Peter_J]

While I understand your position, I’m not so sure each and every Christian “believed” exactly the same.

I agree.

I think that’s one reason that we RCs believe in “development of doctrine” – notwithstanding the fact that we believe that the deposit of faith (“the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints”) never changes.

For example, as late as the 13th century there was no consensus about whether Mary was immaculately conceived (St. Thomas Aquinas is often brought up as someone who thought that she wasn’t); and yet today we can count the Immaculate Conception as a dogma, because of the doctrinal development that took place from the 13th century to the 19th century.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It depends on the question being asked I suppose. I don’t know what you are asking to be honest.

I don’t have a firm opinion yet on the first 1500 years of Christianity yet since I have not studied the topic in depth enough to have an intelligent and informed opinion.

However, I have read some on this topic and have an opinion on what I have read. However, I am open to changing my opinion as I learn more facts.

Well history records that for the first 1500 years the only Christian faith in the world was Catholic. The Holy Catholic Apostolic church in the west During King Henry the Eigth seperated himself and his kingdom from the Catholic church and Rome because the Pope would not grant him a divorce, others like Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli seperated themselves from the Holy Catholic Apostolic church and became our seperated brethern.

From these seperated brethern (referred to as Protestants because they protested the Catholic faith) branched off many different Christian denominations known as non catholics. Non Catholic is a term used today to distinguish Protestants from non denominations and many other Christian sects that seperated themselves from their Protestant church’s or traditions. From these Protestant faiths came many more divisions and they continue to divide among themselves today, example the Lutherans and Anglican church’s.

So if your Christianity was founded among Protestantism your Christian faith may have been started by a Man, if your Christian faith seperated from the Protestant reformers, your Christian faith may have gotten started by a woman or man, that go by many different christian names.

The question I hope helps us understand where we are today in our Christian church’s and where we come from. The second part of the question deals with comparing one’s christian faith to the 1500 years of Christian faith before their founders broke away from the Holy Catholic Apostolic christian faith. I hope from here to learn and understand non catholic positions on Christian faith, to find a solution to help bring us all back together.

But I dont see this happening if we all dont know from where we came from to start. We just seem to be pointing out why we differ, when we all come from the same Christian foundation, which was uncontested for 1500 years, and remains today in the west the Roman Catholic church which was founded by Jesus himself who built his church upon Peter (see Mathew 16:16-19) unchanged. That is why Roman Catholics are apostolic and possess the orthodox faith from the apostles unchanged because we hold to the apostolic Traditional teachings for last 2000 years.

I hope this commentary helps you, in understanding what christian faith you come from and who started or taught you your christian belief’s, and then compare them to the first 1500 years of uncontested Christian belief’s.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It’s not “my Christianity.” It’s ours.

Was “Ours” Christianity practiced as did the first 1500 years of christians did?

 

[With_Questions]

Well history records that for the first 1500 years the only Christian faith in the world was Catholic.

What about the Orthodox?

And I do seem to remember of reading of small groups like the Waldenses who were persecuted by the Catholic church.

But anyway,just fact checking here.

The Holy Catholic Apostolic church in the west During King Henry the Eigth seperated himself and his kingdom from the Catholic church and Rome because the Pope would not grant him a divorce, others like Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli seperated themselves from the Holy Catholic Apostolic church and became our seperated brethern.

From these seperated brethern (referred to as Protestants because they protested the Catholic faith) branched off many different Christian denominations known as non catholics. Non Catholic is a term used today to distinguish Protestants from non denominations and many other Christian sects that seperated themselves from their Protestant church’s or traditions. From these Protestant faiths came many more divisions and they continue to divide among themselves today, example the Lutherans and Anglican church’s.

So if your Christianity was founded among Protestantism your Christian faith may have been started by a Man, if your Christian faith seperated from the Protestant reformers, your Christian faith may have gotten started by a woman or man, that go by many different christian names.

Well all I can speak to in regards to “My Christian Faith” is how God has moved personally in my life.

My Christian faith was started many years ago in a dorm room at college. I trust it was not started by a Man since it was the Holy Spirit who brought me to Christ.

The question I hope helps us understand where we are today in our Christian church’s and where we come from. The second part of the question deals with comparing one’s christian faith to the 1500 years of Christian faith before their founders broke away from the Holy Catholic Apostolic christian faith. I hope from here to learn and understand non catholic positions on Christian faith, to find a solution to help bring us all back together.

But I dont see this happening if we all dont know from where we came from to start. We just seem to be pointing out why we differ, when we all come from the same Christian foundation, which was uncontested for 1500 years, and remains today in the west the Roman Catholic church which was founded by Jesus himself who built his church upon Peter (see Mathew 16:16-19) unchanged. That is why Roman Catholics are apostolic and possess the orthodox faith from the apostles unchanged because we hold to the apostolic Traditional teachings for last 2000 years.

I hope this commentary helps you, in understanding what christian faith you come from and who started or taught you your christian belief’s, and then compare them to the first 1500 years of uncontested Christian belief’s.

Peace be with you

Well I trust that in the first 1500 years of church history there also were folks whose Christian faith was started by the Holy Spirit and is founded upon Christ. Certainly when I read the New Testament, I see the same Christian faith that I profess and at least attempt to live by.

So I am not terribly worried about that issue in this regard.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Was “Ours” Christianity practiced as did the first 1500 years of christians did?

With Questions answered the way I would have answered. I would add to the list the Celtic - by sheer isolation, their faith was practiced a little differently than Rome’s, even though they were technically under Rome’s rule.

The short answer would be “no.” Papal bulls and encyclicals didn’t get around as well as they have in more modern times.

 

[Contarini]

What about the Orthodox?

And I do seem to remember of reading of small groups like the Waldenses who were persecuted by the Catholic church.

The Waldenses originated in the 12-13th centuries, and were basically a renewal movement many of whom were forced out of the Church by the hierarchy’s refusal to allow them to preach. (You will find radical Protestants who claim that the Waldenses existed continuously from the early centuries of the Church, but this is not a historically tenable claim.) There were various dissenting movements at various points in Church history, though, so you’re right that there was never a time when the only church was the Catholic Church (well, perhaps in the first couple centuries, since arguably the other allegedly Christian groups in that era were so heretical that they don’t count by anyone’s standard!).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I like your answers; So your Anglican faith although it comes after 1500 years later, you believe is a succession from the first 1500 years of Christianity? How is this so?

How are the teachings of Trent or Vatican II a succession from the first 1500 years? How is the practice of communion in one kind a succession from the practice of communion both kinds, as found in the early Church? And so on, and so forth. All churches change. I have no problem with your Communion’s distinction between “change” (i.e., change that contradicts previously held principles) and “development,” but you need to recognize that both are subsets of what in common speech is called “change.”

No contemporary Christian church is exactly the same as the early Church. It’s just not possible. Cardinal Newman famously said that “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant,” because the Protestants of his era (and many today) claimed anachronistically to be practicing the “pure” religion of the earliest Church, and this is plainly false. But by the same token, Catholicism today is not simply identical (in all its observable aspects) with the religion of the early Church. It may be identical in all essentials, but that requires a set of judgments as to what things are essential. To ignore this–to claim that in every detail your Church is the same as it was in the first century–indicates not just that you aren’t deep in history, but that you haven’t even dipped your toes into it.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

With Questions answered the way I would have answered. I would add to the list the Celtic - by sheer isolation, their faith was practiced a little differently than Rome’s, even though they were technically under Rome’s rule.

I’m not sure “rule” is the best category. The increasing emphasis on “rule” was one of the basic problems with medieval Catholicism (a problem from which Catholicism is still suffering). But Celtic Christians certainly thought they were part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Edwin

 

[Thing]

With Questions answered the way I would have answered. I would add to the list the Celtic - by sheer isolation, their faith was practiced a little differently than Rome’s, even though they were technically under Rome’s rule.

The short answer would be “no.” Papal bulls and encyclicals didn’t get around as well as they have in more modern times.

I would not like to suggest [if I were you] that the Catholic Church in Ireland was a different or independant religion. The Irish Bishops did visit Rome, Palladius and St. Patrick in the 400’s AD. were the first bishops sent by Rome to Ireland. The Irish monks and Bishops were extremely well educated in the Catholic faith, and had in fact better Latin than many of the Italian Bishops in Rome.
Many of the Catholic Saints in the Church were Irish missionary monks who converted much of Scotland, England, and western Europe, e.g. St. Columba and St. Columbanus.
Anyway…

 

[gcnuss]

Sorry to be a little slow in joining this thread. You folks have a bit of a head start on me.

If you are a non Catholic or Protestant; And you believe your Christian faith is the Truth that Jesus left here on earth, and built his church upon your faith? explain why the first 1500 years of Christians who walked the earth before your Non Catholic or Protestant Christian faith began, can deny your Truth of your Christian faith to these first Christians who many of them went to their death joyfully for their Christian faith that does not reflect your non catholic or protestant christian belief’s?

Can you justify why your Christianity changed from these 1500 years of Christians who lived and died for their Christian faith, and why you dont practice Christianity the same as they did, and yet believe your Christianity supersedes these first 1500 years of Christians?

Speaking for myself (although I think I can speak for Lutherans in general), we do not discount the first 1500 years of Christianity. If we did, we would be discounting the New Testament, the witness of the martyrs, and the three ecumenical creeds. We do not discount any of these.

I have used the story of Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas as an example of the way in which the early martyrs rejoiced in the deaths they faced. We do not deny the faith of those early martyrs. I can only pray that I would be as faithful and joyful in witness as they should I ever be faced with martyrdom.

With the early Church, we reject Arianism, Nestorianism, Donatism, Pelagianism, and all the heresies that plagued it.

With the early Church, we confess the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

With the early Church, we believe that Baptism washes away sin and brings one to new life in Christ.

With the early Church, we believe that in Holy Communion we receive the true Body and Blood of our Lord.

This is a short list of what we have received from the pre-1500 Church. We do not discount any of it. At the same time we have some differences in ecclesiology – the way in which the Church is structured here on earth. These do not, however, discount the faith that has been passed down over the centuries by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thing]

I’m not sure “rule” is the best category. The increasing emphasis on “rule” was one of the basic problems with medieval Catholicism (a problem from which Catholicism is still suffering). But Celtic Christians certainly thought they were part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Edwin

Celtic Catholics had validly ordained Bishops and Priests sent from Rome originally and the sacrament was therefore valid also.
But things changed after the reformation (in some places) and when one removes the intention of ordaining priests and removes that intention from the form used to ‘make’ priests then you do not have validly ordained priests and the sacraments from those invalid priests are also invalid.
When there are no validly ordained priests in a country for over 100 years then any originally validly ordained priests will all have died out and that church will remain without priests or sacraments.
Until of course Rome again sends to them valid Bishops to ordain valid priests…

 

[O.S.Luke]

I’m not sure “rule” is the best category. The increasing emphasis on “rule” was one of the basic problems with medieval Catholicism (a problem from which Catholicism is still suffering). But Celtic Christians certainly thought they were part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Edwin

No argument, and “rule” was probably not the best word. But if you look at their liturgies of the past, they were definitely different in flavor from the mainline liturgies of Rome.

Thing:

I would not like to suggest [if I were you] that the Catholic Church in Ireland was a different or independant religion.

It was not my intent to make that suggestion - Celts were unashamedly Catholic. But in looking at Celtic liturgies and spirituality back in the day, they were much different in flavor than Latin liturgies and Western spirituality.

 

[Cinette]

If you are a non Catholic or Protestant; And you believe your Christian faith is the Truth that Jesus left here on earth, and built his church upon your faith? explain why the first 1500 years of Christians who walked the earth before your Non Catholic or Protestant Christian faith began, can deny your Truth of your Christian faith to these first Christians who many of them went to their death joyfully for their Christian faith that does not reflect your non catholic or protestant christian belief’s?

Can you justify why your Christianity changed from these 1500 years of Christians who lived and died for their Christian faith, and why you dont practice Christianity the same as they did, and yet believe your Christianity supersedes these first 1500 years of Christians?

Peace

I get the gist of your post but I must say that I had to read the 2nd sentence several times and I am not sure I understand it very well! I did a word count and it has 57 words!

Nevertheless the question is an interesting one.