Doesnt it say in the bible that women cant speak

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Doesn’t the Deposit of Faith include all of Christ’s revelations? I have read somewhere that the Deposit of Faith ended with the death of the last Apostle but I could be wrong.

Pro Vobis,

To be fair one could argue that this was a discipline or practice that could be temporary. I haven’t heard much on that argument yet. I am just defending St. Paul against those who say he and the Holy Ghost were wrong because they didn’t know what we have learned since the French Revolution, Female Suffrage, and the Errors of Russia have penetrated our consciences.

One could point to Acts 15 where for the present circumstances, which involved many converts from Judaism, that the Gentile Christians would refrain from consuming blood for the sake of their Jewish brethren for whom this was an occasion of stumbling. I believe that this biblically recorded command has expired along with the one that says a bishop must be the husband of one wife. Now he must be the husband of no wife! Disciplinary again and changable.

This could fall into such a category but there are so many other places in the New Testament that emphasize a less prominent role for women that I am convinced it is a practice that should be recognized as universal.

 

[choy]

It’s an organization of Catholic women who work with the Canadian government to promote life issues. We are the reason that Harper is not allowing any abortion funding to go to the Third World.

i love you

i mean, the CWL collectivly

good job

yes, i don’t want my taxes (especially we are overtaxed here in BC) to go to funding abortion anywhere. at least not funding them overseas is a start. can you work to put abortion on the ballot and see if everyone in Canada really approves of it? i heard it was never put into a vote

 

[jmcrae]

i love you

i mean, the CWL collectivly

good job

yes, i don’t want my taxes (especially we are overtaxed here in BC) to go to funding abortion anywhere. at least not funding them overseas is a start. can you work to put abortion on the ballot and see if everyone in Canada really approves of it? i heard it was never put into a vote

We have a meeting tonight - I’ll ask. It could take a year or so to get the ball rolling. I can also see if anyone else is working on this.

 

[WatchingMedia]

AVOIDING the REAL ISSUE - -

I don’t hear anyone addressing the laziness on the part of (most but not all) males for not volunteering for duties at MASS on Saturday evening or Sunday morning.

Examination of Conscience
Laziness a Capitol Sin (SLOTH) ?
Are men leading their families to heaven ?

 

[choy]

AVOIDING the REAL ISSUE - -

I don’t hear anyone addressing the laziness on the part of (most but not all) males for not volunteering for duties at MASS on Saturday evening or Sunday morning.

Examination of Conscience
Laziness a Capitol Sin (SLOTH) ?
Are men leading their families to heaven ?

i don’t volunteer for mass but i volunteer to teach PREP
is that okay?

 

[jmcrae]

Pro Vobis,

To be fair one could argue that this was a discipline or practice that could be temporary. I haven’t heard much on that argument yet. I am just defending St. Paul against those who say he and the Holy Ghost were wrong because they didn’t know what we have learned since the French Revolution, Female Suffrage, and the Errors of Russia have penetrated our consciences.

The quote you are responding to is from On the Dignity of Woman, by Pope John Paul II, and believe me, he had no time for the French Revolution, or for Communism, etc. Read the whole encyclical.

This could fall into such a category but there are so many other places in the New Testament that emphasize a less prominent role for women that I am convinced it is a practice that should be recognized as universal.

There are a lot of places in the New Testament where women are being praised for their work of evangelism, and their role in the Mass, when St. Paul says Mass at the homes of Priscilla and Lydia (which means that they must have been involved in setting up the Altar, etc.)

The only other places where it seems as if St. Paul is rebuking women is when he rebukes certain young widows for gossiping, and tells them to take on more work in the Church (thus, increasing their role; not decreasing it) and where he instructs certain older women to focus on teaching the younger women and the children, instead of teaching the men.

 

[gtrguy155]

Thanks everyone. This has helped immensly. God bless =)

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

As for all this business of whining that men don’t want to help with Mass???

Do what? Part of the problem with The Ordinary Mass is it creates this problem by making extra unnecessary work for laypeople. There is no reason I would not rather have the priest read the Epistle and give me communion than some self-conscious female who speaks too quietly and tries to make eye contact while I’m trying to remember who He is that the woman is placing on my tongue.

All this laity “participation” is condescending baby play. Let me dig a hole and fill it up again. Its like letting your four year old “steer” the car. It satisfies a four year old to think he is driving. All this “work” is dividing up stuff that the priest can easily do better.

 

[ProVobis]

No. Does it address the “feminization” of St. Jerome’s Scriptorium?

Are you implying St. Jerome misinterpreted the original languages?

 

[jpjd]

Doesnt it say in the bible that women cant speak During services?? My mom is a protestant and brought this up. She asks why us catholics would do something completely opposite the bible. I searched online and cant find an answer to this question. I would sure appreciate some help in explaining this cuz it is kind of worrying me me because it actually DOES say it.

Well, gtrguy, the Bible also says, FROM JESUS HIMSELF, in Matthew 5:29-30:

29] If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
30] And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Ask your mom why no one, Protestant or Catholic, ever plucks out their eye or cuts off their hand?

 

[ProVobis]

One could point to Acts 15 where for the present circumstances, which involved many converts from Judaism, that the Gentile Christians would refrain from consuming blood for the sake of their Jewish brethren for whom this was an occasion of stumbling. I believe that this biblically recorded command has expired along with the one that says a bishop must be the husband of one wife. Now he must be the husband of no wife! Disciplinary again and changable.

Rory, I’m not so much concerned with discipline or rationalizations here as I’m concerned with the truth. Why did St. Paul write it, what are we to do with it today, and what does it mean in relation to our salvation?

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

The quote you are responding to is from On the Dignity of Woman, by Pope John Paul II, and believe me, he had no time for the French Revolution, or for Communism, etc. Read the whole encyclical.

There are a lot of places in the New Testament where women are being praised for their work of evangelism, and their role in the Mass, when St. Paul says Mass at the homes of Priscilla and Lydia (which means that they must have been involved in setting up the Altar, etc.)

The only other places where it seems as if St. Paul is rebuking women is when he rebukes certain young widows for gossiping, and tells them to take on more work in the Church (thus, increasing their role; not decreasing it) and where he instructs certain older women to focus on teaching the younger women and the children, instead of teaching the men.

jmcrae…

I don’t suppose there was the same kind of elaborate ceremony to setting up the altar during such times as has subsequently developed. But for the record, I don’t have a problem with women assisting with setting up the altar. We would have a problem if you refused! Altar Society is customarily a feminine activity and rightly so. Without you ladies, we would never have the ornate and lovely altar linens and cloths.

My answers have been prompted by the comment of the original poster’s Mom. She is a Protestant who believes that women should not speak in Church. I would not recommend that the original poster should inform his mother that the Catholic Church now teaches that St. Paul was wrong about women speaking in church services, or worse, that the Holy Ghost was wrong because they had not experienced the enlightenment that we now have in our blessed and lovely times. I think this would first of all misrepresent the Church’s teaching, and secondly would turn her away from the Church even further.

Thanks,

Rory

I was thinking of St. Peter…

In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives. Considering your chaste conversation with fear. Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: But the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and a meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: As Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters you are, doing well, and not fearing any disturbance. Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered.

—I Pet. 3:1-7

1. The “conversation of the wives” means their actions and behaviors, not their arguments and admonitions.
2. There is a distinctly stronger emphasis on a female having a “hidden man of the heart”. To interior beauty and excellence that does not need outward embellishment.
3. Subjection to their husbands arises again, just as when St. Paul urged that the women who would speak should ask their husbands at home.
4. The female is in some respect a weaker vessel, though not hindered in the spiritual life. If women will accept this role, they are the mystics, they are the contemplatives, they are the ones best able to be united to Christ in meekness.

This command to be silent, can’t be understood outside of this teaching context which goes far to affirm itself as being not cultural, but theological when St. Peter appeals to how Sara was pleasing in God’s sight through her quiet subjection to Abraham. There is a hierarchy in heaven, a hierarchy in the Church, and hierarchy in the home.

Its no great problem to be disqualified from any of the functions of the hierarchical authorities. You have recognized yourself as has the Church that the most exalted creature in all the universe is a female, Our Blessed Mother in heaven. It is easier to be exalted if we are humble as you know. Whether we are men or women, when we are talking and leading we tend to get pushy and proud. Catholic women who are pushing themselves forward for jobs that can be done by men are missing out on a blessed opportunity to be unknown and hidden.

In my opinion, it is the spirit of the age and not the Spirit that inspired St. Paul and St. Peter to write Scripture which is leading the charge for females taking over roles traditionally assigned to men. This is especially the case in regard to the question at hand, when women are specifically singled out to be silent in the churches. I think there is evidence to suggest that this coimmand of St. Paul’s is reflective not of culture, but of Christian theology.

By the way, if any pope trumps St. Paul anytime as you said (regretfully from my perspective), I would point to the first pope who enlarges greatly upon the role of females in such a way that seems far easier to reconcile with St. Paul than with Pope Paul’s female lectors.

 

[floresco]

Rory, I’m not so much concerned with discipline or rationalizations here as I’m concerned with the truth. Why did St. Paul write it, what are we to do with it today, and what does it mean in relation to our salvation?

It seems very unlikely that “women should keep silence in church” means that women may not speak at all. After all, just a few chapters earlier in I Cor 11:5 says

but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head…

If women were not permitted to prophesy, why would St. Paul be concerned with what they were wearing when they did it? If we examine the “women keep silence” passage in context, it is in the middle of a section on the need for order in worship. This is consistent with explanations earlier in the thread saying this passage is about women who were disrupting services.

I do think that women, and laity in general, are currently encroaching on liturgical roles that ought to be the priest’s, but I doubt that the “silent women” passage addresses what the problem is.

 

[WatchingMedia]

As for all this business of whining that men don’t want to help with Mass???

Do what? Part of the problem with The Ordinary Mass is it creates this problem by making extra unnecessary work for laypeople. There is no reason I would not rather have the priest read the Epistle and give me communion than some self-conscious female who speaks too quietly and tries to make eye contact while I’m trying to remember who He is that the woman is placing on my tongue.

All this laity “participation” is condescending baby play. Let me dig a hole and fill it up again. Its like letting your four year old “steer” the car. It satisfies a four year old to think he is driving. All this “work” is dividing up stuff that the priest can easily do better.

There is a point in what you say. - There are so many receiving Holy Communion, and so few going to Confession.
Either they don’t know what sin is, or they are all Saints.
Due to all these folks receiving Communion the Priest does need help.
Any Volunteers - MEN ?

However the original question was about women taking part in the Mass. The best way to stop it, is for Men to do it.

Draft on USCCB web site for Mass in 2011. Looks like things will be more uniform.

 

[ProVobis]

However the original question was about women taking part in the Mass. The best way to stop it, is for Men to do it.

It’s more than the Mass. It’s Ecclesia, as I noted above. Many of the parishes and schools were effectively run by the nuns prior to Vatican II. Men weren’t typically teaching grade schools where most Catholics were being first cathechized, at least not in the US. Though the religious orders were being diminished, nevertheless men never really overtook the women in matters of parish life and education. It really should be of no surprise that many women today are giving readings, distributing communion in and out of Mass, serving Mass, transporting consecrated hosts, etc. After all, more women than men go to Church and more women then men receive communion. Wasn’t always like this but in the EF attendance seems to be about 50/50 men/women; communion recipients are fewer as well for what that’s worth. Could it be that the EF is seen as more macho than the OF?

 

[geovet]

I do not see the point of asking for more men or boys to volunteer. Would the women and girls be told they were not needed by their parish?

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

There is a point in what you say. - There are so many receiving Holy Communion, and so few going to Confession.
Either they don’t know what sin is, or they are all Saints.
Due to all these folks receiving Communion the Priest does need help.
Any Volunteers - MEN ?

However the original question was about women taking part in the Mass. The best way to stop it, is for Men to do it.

Draft on USCCB web site for Mass in 2011. Looks like things will be more uniform.

I suggest that the best way is to “stop it” (women doing stuff that they shouldn’t) is to get the laypeople to quit coveting what isn’t their vocation. This isn’t just a male/female problem. It is a lay/priest problem. Back to my original thesis. The problem is Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and the belief that a hierarchy of priests is bad. Priests have their office. Laypeople have theirs. Male laypeople determined to intrude into the sanctuary aren’t an improvement on female laypeople. A priestly hierarchy just doesn’t set well with the politics of typical modern egalitarians. That is the way it is. We have a priestly hierarchy in the Catholic Church and the sooner we recognize that it is incompatible with modern democracy the better…in my most humble opinion.

Rory

 

[ProVobis]

**I suggest that the best way is to “stop it” (women doing stuff that they shouldn’t) is to get the laypeople to quit coveting what isn’t their vocation. **This isn’t just a male/female problem. It is a lay/priest problem. Back to my original thesis. The problem is Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and the belief that a hierarchy of priests is bad. Priests have their office. Laypeople have theirs. Male laypeople determined to intrude into the sanctuary aren’t an improvement on female laypeople. A priestly hierarchy just doesn’t set well with the politics of typical modern egalitarians. That is the way it is. We have a priestly hierarchy in the Catholic Church and the sooner we recognize that it is incompatible with modern democracy the better…in my most humble opinion.

Rory

Excellent points.

 

[graceandglory]

Doesnt it say in the bible that women cant speak During services?? My mom is a protestant and brought this up. She asks why us catholics would do something completely opposite the bible. I searched online and cant find an answer to this question. I would sure appreciate some help in explaining this cuz it is kind of worrying me me because it actually DOES say it.

As a Catholic,we believe in Sacred Scripture and Tradition. It’s not up to me to interpret the scriptures, but the Magisterium. If the Magisterium tells me that YES, Jesus really did say “Eat My Flesh,” and we are to believe it literally, because we have written proof that that is what the disciples and the early Church believed; but explains to me that the scripture about women keeping silent during services was meant for the time, and then can back it up with Church documents from that time; I can rest assured that we are doing things the right way.

So would ask your mom why doesn’t she believe John 6, where Jesus tells his disciples over and over and over that we are to eat His Flesh, that THIS BODY IS MY FLESH. Why doesn’t she believe that? I believe the Eucharist is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the side issue of women readers at Church.

There are far more things in the Bible that protestants don’t believe that Catholics do. The Bible made me Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you implying St. Jerome misinterpreted the original languages?

Such a thought hadn’t even entered my mind.

No - all I meant was that, because of the low wages that Jerome was forced to pay, due to his circumstances, the only assistants he could afford, to assist him in his Scriptorium - people to mix the ink, cut the pens, prepare the parchments, etc. - were women. He couldn’t afford to hire men to do this work.