Doesn't the Bible interpret itself? SDA question

[Katholikos]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Jay, Im only a part of the body of Christ[church]. Who is in tune can only be answered by each one of us. If we are in tune the Holy Spirit will reveal revelation truth to each of us.The Holy Spirit doesnt teach in error.Im a follower of Christ and each one who walks and lives with Him is a member of His Church. God Bless.

Hmmmm. What are the signs? How will I know for sure that I am “in tune with the Holy Spirit”? How can I know that I am walking with Christ when I reject His teachings in favor of my own imaginings, as you do? How will I know the difference between self-deception, mental delusions, and “revealed revelation”?

Do you think the Apostles “were in tune with the Holy Spirit”? You can know what the Apostles taught by studying early Christianity when the new Christians had no “Bible” as we know it to read and misinterpret. They relied on what the Apostles told them. Thousands of Catholics went to a martyr’s death without having read a word of the NT – it didn’t exist until the beginning of the fifth century.

Sorry, but this mythical church of yours does not exist. You (or those who have taught you) have made up your own brand of Christianity – it bears no resemblance to the original Christianity taught by the Apostles. You’re one of thousands upon thousands that have read the Scriptures and interpreted them to suit yourself. (He’s whistling “I’ll do it my way.”)

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Glenamyaglin wrote:

Now as to your question, “How do we know which is the ***real ***Word of God?” Well first ask yourself another question, “If God tells us to prove all things, 1 Thessanonians 5:21, doesn’t it stand to reason that one CAN prove all things?”, or, Would God command us to do something that was impossible for us to do? Think about it - it doesn’t make sense does it?

1 Thess 5:19-22: “(19) Do not quench the Spirit. (20) Do not despise the words of prophets, (21) but ***test ***everything; hold fast to what is good; (22) abstain from every form of evil.” (New Revised Standard Version)

“(19) Do not stifle inspiration (20) or despise prophetic utterances, (21) but test them all; keep hold of what is good (22) and avoid all forms of evil.” (New English Bible)

Other translations also read TEST in v. 21. The archaic English of the error-ridden KJV uses “prove” rather than “test” but even it cannot be twisted to make this passage apply to the Scriptures.

This passage has nothing to do with “proving” the Scriptures.

Until you can provide a God-given, “inspired” list of the writings that belong in the Bible, you can’t answer the question: What is the written Word of God? And such a list does not exist.

There are two choices: Accept the authority of the Catholic Church to determine which writings are “inspired” and which are not, or admit that you have no way of knowing what is “scripture” and what isn’t.

You haven’t even begun to answer my questions.

JMJ

 

[Katholikos]

Glenamyaglen:

Hello Katholikos,

I expected to hear from you much sooner than now. Listen I understand how shocking and almost unbelievable the Truth is at first, I went through the same trauma. I was not trying to hurt you, but show you the Truth. I’ve done that, now you may do with it what you will.GED

Sorry, but my schedule cannot always accommodate your expectations.

This “truth” of yours is not believeable – you got that right!

You must excuse me if you’re offended by my insistence that the Faith taught by the Apostles and preserved in the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church is the only valid Christian teaching.

The only thing that hurts me is that a nice guy like you got pulled into this quagmire. You should run – not walk – away from it. It’s hazardous to your spiritual health.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[Church_Militant]

Glenamyaglen:

Hello Mr Militant, I hope you are well.

Though he did not mention Martin Luther’s shinannigins he is quite aware of them. The article was on the canonization of the Holy Bible, not so much about any given religious group, whether they be Catholic or Protestant. He is not a Catholic scholar but he is a walking library of history and he preaches the Truth of God.

I would invite all else to go to the link and read the whole article and learn the Truth about the Holy Bible.

Thank you Mr. Militant

GED

No thanks…have read Worldwide Church of God literature before and despite your claims to the contrary I reject them as not the fulness of the NT truth.
http://pages.prodigy.net/hauxfan/Signs/Group_2/30.gif

 

[Katholikos]

Glenamyaglen:

. . . John gives a stern warning to anyone who would add to the Holy Scriptures in the very last book of the Holy Bible, Revelation 22:18.

The admonition in Revelation refers to the Book of Revelation itself and not to the entire Bible. It would have to tell us what it’s contents of the Bible are (list the “inspired” writings), for this to be true. It doesn’t. It says “I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book, if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book . . .”

There’s a similar quote in Deuteronomy, but the remainder of the OT and the entire NT was added to it, nevertheless.

As to visiting a place of worship of ancient times, if you can find the spot where Paul and the others worshipped on the SABBATH Day next to the riverside, Acts 16:13, then have at it, I dont know where its at. Again Christ is building a spiritual house of people who have Gods Spirit in them, 1 Peter 2:5, NOT A fancy building! . . ."

Well, people leave tracks in the sands of history. Where’s there are people, there is evidence. Translation: ‘this church of mine is not really apostolic even though it claims to be.’ There is no historical, biblical, literary, archaeological, monumental, artistic, or other evidence of its existence in the early centuries of Christianity. In fact, there is no evidence of its existence until the 20th century.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Glenamyaglin (aka GED):

I now know all I need to know about your “apostolic” church.

“Living Church of God - Who Are We?
The Living Church of God is a new organization with an old history. Its leader, Dr. Roderick C. Meredith, was one of the original evangelists ordained by the late Herbert W. Armstrong in December 1952.”

For those who may not be familiar with it, Herbert W. Armstrong founded the Worldwide Church of God after he believed he had been called by God to restore the gospel that had been lost since the first century. It has changed doctrines a number of times, but here’s some of what they believe(d):

• Observed Saturday Sabbath
• Celebrated Jewish festivals
• No Christmas and Easter
• Followed dietary restrictions of Jewish law
• Big on prophecy
• Britain and U.S. are descendants of Israel; prophecies apply to us
• No Trinity
• God the Father and God the Son are separate beings; the Holy Spirit is the Power of God
• Keep the seventh day Sabbath or be condemned
• Reading materials from other religions is discouraged lest members fall for the devil’s wily arguments
• Divine healing, reliance on medical profession is a sign of a lack of faith
• Secular utopia included in the 1,000-year reign of Christ

And so forth.

The WCG splintered after Herbert W. Armstrong’s death. the Living Church of God is one of its descendants.

GED, come in out of the rain. We’ll keep a watch for you.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

I get this mental picture of Herbert W. Armstrong “ordaining” Roderick C. Meredith.

Armstrong had as much authority to “ordain” as an Internet certificate has that names me a Doctor of Divinity.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Glenamyaglin wrote:

Whats more, if my understanding is correct, and I’m sure it is by your posts, the catholic teachings come from other writings that really have nothing to do with the Bible. God says not to add other teachings to your worship of Him. Whether you put them in His Holy Inspired Word or not, you are still adding to His Word.

The Catholic teachings come directly from the lips of the Apostles, not from any writings. The teachings of the Catholic Church are in the New Testament – either expressed or implied – simply because those were the doctrines of the Apostles that the Church was teaching at the time the NT was written. The NT and other writings confirm what the Church teaches but they are not the source of her doctrines.

Here’s the way it went down:

Christ taught the Apostles and founded the Church on the Chief Apostle, Peter. St. Peter was the head of the Apostles and the Church.

The Apostles, the leaders of the Church, in turn, taught the Church what they learned from Christ.

The Church, in turn, taught others what she learned from the Apostles.

The Church is the guardian and expositor of the Deposit of Faith entrusted to her by the Apostles (Jude 3).

Christ founded the Church to represent Him on earth, to take his place and the place of the Apostles, when they were no longer here.

The Church is the Presence of Christ in the world. The Church is still teaching exactly what she taught in the first century and will teach until the end of time.

Peace be with you,

JMJ Jay

 

[RBushlow]

Glenamyaglen:

Hello RBushlow, I hope you are well.

As I pointed out on an earlier post addressing Katholikos, all the writings that were added “after” the last writer of the Bible, the apostle John, are invalid and do not constitute real Scripture.

Actually, Barnabas, Clement, Ignatius and several of the others were writing before the death of John. However, these are not included in the Canon of the Scripture, but explanations of the scripture as passed on by the Apostles themselves. And, therefore, valuable in gauaging the correctness of someones interpretation with reference to the teaching of the Apostles. There is even a very early document containing and titled “The Teaching of the Apostles” which gives express direction in the order of worship and many other things with regard to the Church at that time. It has been irrefutably linked back to the second century.

As to visiting a place of worship of ancient times, if you can find the spot where Paul and the others worshipped on the SABBATH Day next to the riverside, Acts 16:13, then have at it, I dont know where its at. Again Christ is building a spiritual house of people who have Gods Spirit in them, 1 Peter 2:5, NOT A fancy building! Notice 2 Corinthians 6:16, “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? FOR YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD. AS GOD HAS SAID: I will dwell IN THEM and walk among them. I will be their God and they will be My people.”

are churches buildings and monastaries dating back to the first century, a good indication that these churches have a link to Christ and the Apostles. I am just curious where your linkage is, since you claim to be associated with a church which goes back to that period.

 

[Malachi4U]

“Doesn’t the Bible interpret itself?”

Now thats funny!

We all know it’s the Holy Spirit that interprets the Bible inside each of us. Thats way all protestants think exactly alike. There is only one Holy Spirit so there can only be one interpretation?

 

[Glenamyaglen]

Hello allSorry I haven’t been around for a while, not that many of you would likely care, but I thought I was being a bit un-Christian. I dont desire to hurt anyone here, but sometimes the Truth does hurt. The true Church is hard to follow through history because false teachers took over and cast those who really followed Christ’s teachings out of the physical corporate organization.It got to where true followers of Christ were called heretics by the controlling false teachers. I think I mentioned this on another thread. I dont have a Bible handy, but I can remember a few places you can check for yourself and see what I’m saying is true.

In 3 John a man named Ditrophes is mentioned by John as one of these ministers of Satan, Peter warns of them in chapter 2 of his second Epistle, Paul warns of them throughout his Epistles, Galations 1:6;(2 Thessalonians 2 - I think); 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Colossians 2, etc…

Jesus Christ prophesied of these false teachers taking over as well, He said “THE MANY” would come in His name and decieve the “MANY”, not the few. Matthew 24:3-4

The few would be the little flock.

Anyways I hope this helps. He who has ears to hear let him hear.

Later: GED

 

[Ignatius]

Glenamyaglen:

The true Church is hard to follow through history because false teachers took over and cast those who really followed Christ’s teachings out of the physical corporate organization.It got to where true followers of Christ were called heretics by the controlling false teachers.

Glenamyaglen,

You know, just making up your own history doesen’t really change anything. Jesus founded His Church, and we can trace it from that day all the way down through the ages to today.

May the light of Christ guide you.

 

[Courage_to_ride]

I welcome all that come to this forum, as I have felt welcome here myself.

Glenamyalgen, I feel that you tried to stir up trouble. It is right and just to defend the faith. But you haven’t accomplished this. You have avoided the direct questions and proven nothing. Kathlikos and Churchmilitant, and a few others, have responded to your claims and disproved your theories.

I am a new Catholic. Proud of my decision and learning more everyday. A big thing I learned was the truth. The Catholic Church was found by Jesus and we can trace our history. You have not proven your history or disproved ours. You can not pick and choose scripture.

I know that you had a good intention. I came into this church not sure of what to believe, but when the facts are laid in front of you… HELLLO?

Catholic doctrine has not changed. But, it seems that protestant doctrine does. Getting back to the original topic, SDA. My brother is SDA, a preacher. I have a book that he gave me for Christmas. I remain close with my sponsor and he and I have been working through this book. There are already numerous references to scripture that are in error. My friend, you have to read around the verse to get the meaning of it.

I wish you well and hope you don’t find the TRUTH too late.

ck