Doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

[benhur]

Thanks Ben, good to catch up.

I bolded I think the key where we differ. We have to take parables at face value. If it was a message to individuals, don’t you think it would have been the parable of the 2 virgins?

I don’t think we can ignore that we have a situation where you start with a congregation (10) and that half the congregation prepares one way, the other prepares differently (pointed out as unprepared).

It’s easy to conflate sin and preparation, but we must remember Sin is where we “personally account”.

If preparation was included in that logic, that would conflict with 12 Apostles, serving 2x2, feeding many. Working together, working out the Way together is heavily taught.

From an individual perspective, be alert about avoiding sin certainly, as that is yours you own.

But from a preparation perspective, God made people to work well together.

Take care,

Hi ffg,

yes thank you.

I would agree that 10 means something more than two, for God’s people have always been a community of faith . The textual meaning definitely deals with Israel and her children. It is clear that the jewish community was divided. Jesus gives the reason why. Some were Jewish only in name, not circumcised in the heart. Some were born of God, and believed. The others did not. So while salvation indeed is a personal thing, one can never escape the two camps, children of Satan , and children of God, as prophesied at the garden of Eden after the fall (mans/Eve’s seed…believers in the promise, and Satan’s seed, haters of the promise.)

Good point about the number…Blessings

 

[benhur]

I don’t really see the problem. For those who know that the Eucharist is the real presence of Christ, and that Christ has given the Church the power to forgive sins in His name, why would you stay away from the Sacraments since Christ has given them to us? For those who, because of their upbringing, background, or whatever other personal reasons, remain unconvinced there is Christ’s mercy. What is in someone’s heart is between that person and God. It’s not a problem for Catholics because we are not required to judge who is saved and who is not. I’ll leave that to my Baptist friend who tells me I’m going to Hell because I worship a cracker… God love him.

Hi robert,

forgive me but i couldn’t help laughing at your blunt comment about your friend, (I pray you are good friends, enough to be blunt with each other…that is special). Thank you for your merciful, hopeful stance towards others. Yet there are times I do not mind bluntness, as some hard liners can be, even catholic ones…Jesus even said let cold be cold and hot hot but lukewarmness effects no one…again, at times.

I think I have addressed issue in the few posts above.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Hi duane,

Thanks for your response.

If I may say, it appears you viewpoint is on the hard line side, that not all would agree. Yet not sure you word it the way decrees do. Another words, i understand the decrees that say we are not in fullness, or that we are in a dingy, and not the Big mother ship etc, but can u cite any decree or catechism that puts it as you do, that there is no guarantee for P’s but only for those in the graces of the CC church ? Again the CC teaches these other are brethren(and really there is not guarantee for anyone , even CC, unless one believes in OSAS).

Hi Ben, thanks for the reply.

You misunderstand what I said, as I could have worded it better. Christ’s guarantee is for all. But for a Protestant, a Catholic can objectively say that having cut yourself off to the fullness of truth, it is harder for you to attain salvation. A Catholic has the guarantee that if we persevere to the end, we will be saved. If one were not in the Church Christ founded, and one knows they are not, does the guarantee exist for them if they persevere knowing they are not in the Church Christ founded?

Still think the term ignorance (of CC) is very subjective, and the gospel fruit is quite objective , that one knows of his salvation, as per john’s epistle. I mean do you think I am ignorant of CC and her teachings and her call for men’s souls ? Do you really think I do not understand the teaching of CC "eating’’ , or confession ? Remember, many reformers were steeped in CC, even clergymen. (of course I understand the rarer exception , where one has heard nothing , or little of Catholic church, just as a missionary may encounter folks who have heard nothing of any gospel, C or O or P.)

Blessings

Of course it is subjective, as everyone’s level of ignorance is different. But subjectivity does not entail vagueness. I can not judge your ignorance. I have seen a group of people that had the same level of education read a document. Their level of understanding of said document was varied. I am sure you have read many of CC’S documents. Your understanding is limited by the way you understand Scripture. That is obvious.

Ben, at the end of the day, Christ founded a Church that had the power to bind it’s members consciences. We see this at the Council of Jerusalem. Christ promised that Church would last into perpetuity. He promised infallibility to that Church. Even if you don’t believe that Church is the Catholic Church, THAT CHURCH MUST EXIST SOMEWHERE. If you, or anyone, including a Catholic, belongs to a church that they do not believe has the power to bind them, then the are not fully in the Church Christ founded.

 

[Duane1966]

Catholic has the guarantee that if we persevere to the end, we will be saved. If one were not in the Church Christ founded, and one knows they are not, does the guarantee exist for them if they persevere knowing they are not in the Church Christ founded?

This could also be rephrased as though Christ’s guarantee exists for all, is not the accessibility of said guarantee diminished the further you are from the Church He founded?

 

[lanman87]

i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you

I’m late to this party and admit I didn’t read the 10 pages of replies.

My answer would be yes, your relationship with God is more important than the church you attend.

When we stand in judgement we will be given one of two answers. Welcome, Good and Faithful servant, or Depart from me you worker of iniquity I never knew you. Christ does not accept us based on what church we attend, what doctrine we hold, or what works we did in His name. We will be accepted based on our relationship with Him and faithfulness to Him.

I would tell anyone to worship with a community of believers that encourages you to form a relationship with Christ and encourages you to become a Good and Faithful servant of Him.

 

[peace2u2]

i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you

My understanding is that Catholic Christianity is not a denomination but rather a religion. And the word “religion” is rooted in a Latin word ‘religare’ which means “relationship” - with God so in other words MY RELIGION IS MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

My religion is the way I express my relationship with God and also the way God expresses His relationship with me. Since I relate well to the material, having a tangible relationship thru the Church helps me not worship material. Thru the Sacraments I can see, touch, hear, taste and smell the Supernatural - the otherwise invisible Divine Grace.

Also, I have a question for you: In the Catholic Chirch thru the Eucharist we receive the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ and we become part of the Mystical Body of Christ so how can you be part of that Mystical Body if your not partaking of the Catholic communion: the Eucharist?

I have also tried to sustain my relationship with God by just reading my Bible but I failed miserably- the Church keeps me accountable and I need the strength God gives me in the Eucharist- I guess that is why I’m Catholic - the Eucharist my soul food - food for the journey.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in Truth.

 

[ffg]

Hi ffg,

yes thank you.

I would agree that 10 means something more than two, for God’s people have always been a community of faith . The textual meaning definitely deals with Israel and her children. It is clear that the jewish community was divided. Jesus gives the reason why. Some were Jewish only in name, not circumcised in the heart. Some were born of God, and believed. The others did not. So while salvation indeed is a personal thing, one can never escape the two camps, children of Satan , and children of God, as prophesied at the garden of Eden after the fall (mans/Eve’s seed…believers in the promise, and Satan’s seed, haters of the promise.)

Good point about the number…Blessings

I think there is still a little bit of misunderstanding. I said sin is personal.

Salvation requires God and at least 1 person to save. That’s more than personal, it’s a relationship. Per Jesus (end of Matt 25), we build a relationship with Him as we build a relationship with other people. That’s a lot of ‘relationship-ing’.

To prepare for that saving Jesus asked person’s to commune and serve. Both of which require more than 1 person and are ‘relationship-ing’ practices.

It’s important to remember Jesus died for All, so if one is breathing, one can repent and change. Those who choose Hell, are not pre-destined, due to the power of God’s love and the freedom it brings, they choose hell by rejecting relationship with God.

I would not use the term ‘children of Satan’ it diminishes, (or levels with) the term ‘Children of God’, who are royalty (as God is King).

Don’t let Satan fool you into thinking he is more than he is, wrong.

 

[Duane1966]

I’m late to this party and admit I didn’t read the 10 pages of replies.

My answer would be yes, your relationship with God is more important than the church you attend.

When we stand in judgement we will be given one of two answers. Welcome, Good and Faithful servant, or Depart from me you worker of iniquity I never knew you. Christ does not accept us based on what church we attend, what doctrine we hold, or what works we did in His name. We will be accepted based on our relationship with Him and faithfulness to Him.

I would tell anyone to worship with a community of believers that encourages you to form a relationship with Christ and encourages you to become a Good and Faithful servant of Him.

Jesus founded a Church. Of that there is no dispute. Your relationship with that Church is your relationship with Him. They are one and the same. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM,

Actually my post was far from being anything “relative”, and wholly on the side of absolute truth. One must absolutely be born again, born of the Father/the Spirit, regenerated.

Absolutely, no two ways about it, as the judgement day (and the parable) will reveal.

Blessings

So my friend. HOW then does that jive with TRUTH?

Jesus founded ONLY one Church, holds only one set of Faith beliefs and insist even in these times that ALL salvation has to Flow through HE [today’s RCC]

So are we to assume that Jesus, after instituting HIS RCC, [Mt 10:1-8; Mt 16:15-19; John 17:17-20; Mt 28: 18-20; Eph 4: 1-7] has somehow changed the criteria for Salvation HIS way? … Or is man’s way just as “good”; is man’s way sufficient?

This seems to ME to worth praying about.

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=lanman87;14612621]i’m late to this party and admit i didn’t read the 10 pages of replies.

My answer would be yes, your relationship with God is more important than the church you attend.

]

Except when it is the one true church & faith founded, desired and protected by God himself.

When we stand in judgement we will be given one of two answers. Welcome, good and faithful servant, or depart from me you worker of iniquity i never knew you. Christ does not accept us based on what church we attend, what doctrine we hold, or what works we did in his name. We will be accepted based on our relationship with him and faithfulness to him.

I would tell anyone to worship with a community of believers that encourages you to form a relationship with Christ and encourages you to become a good and faithful servant of him.

as a fyi:

Jesus/ God will make his final judgment on each of us not based on what we choose to accept, believe or practice; NO, rather it will be as it must be, based on what he God has made possible for each of us to know, accept, believe and live. Amen!

One MIGHT ask:

Why is it that Jesus Himself founded just One Church & just One set of Faith beliefs? Seems to ME, that there Has to be a valid reason for this reality.

Gby

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi La,

No, some Catholics would say problematic. Either one must "eat’’ or “confess”, as Jesus said, or it is *optional *? The most you could say that CC view is a better option, but it is still an option, not a must anymore. Or is there indeed a optional way of “must” eating ? Is it really up to one’s beliefs, that both are saved? Is it really necessary for one to belong to the CC to be saved then ?

One can not escape the dilemma by citing exceptions to the rule, for as you know , sometimes the exception also proves the rule.

Blessings

Hmmmm, is it REALLY, just an option? JESUS Himself didn’t seem to think so:

1Cor.11: 23 to 30

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” … In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself {MEANING SPIRITUAL DEATH}
[30] That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died"

John.20:19 to 23
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them,** “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.**”

My friend; these teachings appear in the bible for a reason: are we to assume Jesus did not mean what HE SAID?

Pray about it,

GBY

Patrick

 

[benhur]

I’m late to this party and admit I didn’t read the 10 pages of replies.

My answer would be yes, your relationship with God is more important than the church you attend.

When we stand in judgement we will be given one of two answers. Welcome, Good and Faithful servant, or Depart from me you worker of iniquity I never knew you. Christ does not accept us based on what church we attend, what doctrine we hold, or what works we did in His name. We will be accepted based on our relationship with Him and faithfulness to Him.

I would tell anyone to worship with a community of believers that encourages you to form a relationship with Christ and encourages you to become a Good and Faithful servant of Him.

Hi a,

Welcome to CAF…and a big amen to your post…of course many will say the devil is in the details, …as to just what constitutes a good and faithful servant…but as you suggest…keep your eyes on Jesus and you will not "sink’’, for He in the end gives us understanding of such things, that a preacher/teacher/church may say.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Hi a,

Welcome to CAF…and a big amen to your post…of course many will say the devil is in the details, …as to just what constitutes a good and faithful servant…but as you suggest…keep your eyes on Jesus and you will not "sink’’, for He in the end gives us understanding of such things, that a preacher/teacher/church may say.

Blessings

It’s funny that you did not find that post vague. What constitutes Good and Faithful servant is very subjective. After all, I know many a person who have kept their eyes on Jesus, and in doing so have stated that abortion is okay for a Christian. Listen to the Church He founded, then you hear Him. Reject the Church He founded, and you reject Him, in His own words.

 

[benhur]

My understanding is that Catholic Christianity is not a denomination but rather a religion. And the word “religion” is rooted in a Latin word ‘religare’ which means “relationship” - with God so in other words MY RELIGION IS MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

My religion is the way I express my relationship with God and also the way God expresses His relationship with me. Since I relate well to the material, having a tangible relationship thru the Church helps me not worship material. Thru the Sacraments I can see, touch, hear, taste and smell the Supernatural - the otherwise invisible Divine Grace.

Also, I have a question for you: In the Catholic Chirch thru the Eucharist we receive the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ and we become part of the Mystical Body of Christ so how can you be part of that Mystical Body if your not partaking of the Catholic communion: the Eucharist?

I have also tried to sustain my relationship with God by just reading my Bible but I failed miserably- the Church keeps me accountable and I need the strength God gives me in the Eucharist- I guess that is why I’m Catholic - the Eucharist my soul food - food for the journey.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in Truth.

Hi,

I just read that “religion” has at least three root possibilities, the main being “religio” (study or religious laws ), another “religare”, meaning to bind.But yes, a catholic or Augustinian view is of “re-eligare” as in rebinding back to God( closest to you interpretation). Jesus did say religion is visiting the sick and other such good works, but do not think He would characterize relationship to Him as “religion”.

Blessings

 

[ericc]

i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you

Well some of them do have more pleasurable social events, better public relations, better visual/sound system/song and dance team. Or dynamic, smooth, engaging, appealing, charismatic pastors. But they certainly lack some of the sacraments that top up your grace meter that brings you closer to God such as confession and the Eucharist. So which one is important or more effective to you? God calls many types to his priesthood. Not all are great public speakers, fantastic or charismatic in personality, but all are authorized to act in his person. With the confession/eucharist graces, how could you NOT be in the deepest relationship with God vs another that doesn’t even believe in these?

But if you talking about getting in depth theological knowledge (you said deeper relationship didn’t you), the Catholic Church is unsurpassed as she has the fullness of truth in her. If you accept that the Church has the fullness of truth, then could you get elsewhere such truth? If you admit you can’t then the reason for looking elsewhere must be for other reasons or you haven’t look hard enough within the Catholic Church for that deeper understanding.

Perhaps you need to disclose what you find lacking. Some of the folks might be able to point you to the right resource, share their thoughts and experiences, nudge you towards the right direction.

You do agree excellently marketed products/services appears more appealing? But unfortunately, salvation is not a product/service per se. Hence , promotional activities in the CC are not very classy in many parts of the world and solemn worship without (or reduced) the glitter/bling may be seen as the appropriate approach towards worship of God.

 

[Darryl_B]

i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you

I wanted a deeper relationship with God, I had been protestant for 18 years, so I went to a Catholic Mass out of curiosity. Oh that was an eye opener. When I went back to my protestant church the next week, all the gloss had gone and I felt that I was being entertained by worship leaders. I then found it incredible that someone would want to leave the Catholic Mass which has a deep profound mystery relationship with God, to loose all that just for the sake of a coffee and a chat and a weekly get together. You may journey out, my friend, but eventually you might find yourself journeying back when you see.

 

[PJM]

I wanted a deeper relationship with God, I had been protestant for 18 years, so I went to a Catholic Mass out of curiosity. Oh that was an eye opener. When I went back to my protestant church the next week, all the gloss had gone and I felt that I was being entertained by worship leaders. I then found it incredible that someone would want to leave the Catholic Mass which has a deep profound mystery relationship with God, to loose all that just for the sake of a coffee and a chat and a weekly get together. You may journey out, my friend, but eventually you might find yourself journeying back when you see.

THANK YOU!

And God Bless

Patrick

 

[benhur]

So my friend. HOW then does that jive with TRUTH?

Jesus founded ONLY one Church, holds only one set of Faith beliefs and insist even in these times that ALL salvation has to Flow through HE [today’s RCC]

So are we to assume that Jesus, after instituting HIS RCC, [Mt 10:1-8; Mt 16:15-19; John 17:17-20; Mt 28: 18-20; Eph 4: 1-7] has somehow changed the criteria for Salvation HIS way? … Or is man’s way just as “good”; is man’s way sufficient?

This seems to ME to worth praying about.

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Does not the CC agree with my post , that one must be born again, absolutely , to see the kingdom, and to see one’s place in the church , that Jesus Christ founded ?

Blessings

 

[SuperLuigi]

Yes.

That is why I am Catholic!

 

[benhur]

It’s funny that you did not find that post vague. What constitutes Good and Faithful servant is very subjective. After all, I know many a person who have kept their eyes on Jesus, and in doing so have stated that abortion is okay for a Christian. Listen to the Church He founded, then you hear Him. Reject the Church He founded, and you reject Him, in His own words.

Hi D,

I think subjective is the wrong word. I made it very clear that proper understanding on what is a good and faithful servant can only be understood to the extent of just how much we “keep our eyes on Jesus”, that their is nothing subjective when being partakers of His understanding.

Is it a straw man, or do you really think pro abortion folk, even Christian , really have their eyes on Jesus on this matter, and that Christ has given them such understanding, that the condition was met for divine illumination ?

Blessings