Doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

[benhur]

Hmmmm, is it REALLY, just an option? JESUS Himself didn’t seem to think so:

1Cor.11: 23 to 30

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” … In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself {MEANING SPIRITUAL DEATH}
[30] That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died"

John.20:19 to 23
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them,** “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.**”

My friend; these teachings appear in the bible for a reason: are we to assume Jesus did not mean what HE SAID?

Pray about it,

GBY

Patrick

Hi P,

Then why not insist that all others must become Catholic? Why would the Lord make so many “brethren” in the faith(howbeit not in fullness) , if indeed they most assuredly will not meet your two requirements above…they seem destined to perdition, the Lord bringing life into them for an abysmal end. Why does the church say they show the unity that is the church ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I would not use the term ‘children of Satan’ it diminishes, (or levels with) the term ‘Children of God’, who are royalty (as God is King).

Don’t let Satan fool you into thinking he is more than he is, wrong.

Hi ffg,

Jesus implies it in Genesis,and explicitly in gospels saying Satan is the father of some.

I think “children of God” implies to much of the good in humanity. It obfuscates the true nature and dilemma of our existence.

A true child of God is born again, is a Christian, as surely as in ot was Jewish (of course always, for one who accepts the witness of nature , even that which He places in us, if one has not heard the Word).

Being His creation does not make one kindred in spirit (His spiritual child, for God is a spirit), since the fall.

Satan is more than capable in having “children” , followers, just as God is also quite capable. Whom do you think we as individuals and as a church “wrestle” with ?

Blessings

 

[Magdalena59]

I’m late to this party and admit I didn’t read the 10 pages of replies.

My answer would be yes, your relationship with God is more important than the church you attend.

When we stand in judgement we will be given one of two answers. Welcome, Good and Faithful servant, or Depart from me you worker of iniquity I never knew you. Christ does not accept us based on what church we attend, what doctrine we hold, or what works we did in His name. We will be accepted based on our relationship with Him and faithfulness to Him.

I would tell anyone to worship with a community of believers that encourages you to form a relationship with Christ and encourages you to become a Good and Faithful servant of Him.

The Catholic church comes first in your relationship with Christ. This is where you build the relationship because He gave us the Church for that very purpose.

It does matter what Church we belong to and what doctrine we hold and our works. It matters a GREAT deal! How can a person say they have a close relationship with Christ when they are not even in His house and they are not following the doctrines He gives or doing the works He asks them to do? Instead, just going along trying to figure it out on their own, trying to decide which church or denomination has it right.

Jesus said in John 6:56 “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him”. The Catholic Church is where you find life because that is where you find the body and blood of Christ.

God bless.

 

[James248]

Can I say something?

I just dropped in to this conversation and couldn’t help to say a few words. Faith in God is personal, but it is also ecclesial. Although faith develops in the person, faith comes with knowledge of the Word. The 3000 who were numbered among the first Christians wouldn’t be Christians if it weren’t for Peter’s sermon.

Although God can choose to save everyone without her, the Church is the channel by which God reveals His grace. It is not invisible, but a visible authority, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. It is the Catholic Church.

 

[Duane1966]

Hi D,

I think subjective is the wrong word. I made it very clear that proper understanding on what is a good and faithful servant can only be understood to the extent of just how much we “keep our eyes on Jesus”, that their is nothing subjective when being partakers of His understanding.

Hi Ben,

The part that I highlighted, what does that entail? Christ established one Church to transmit His teachings, and what “keeping our eyes on Jesus” entails. Keeping our eyes on Jesus in all likelihood will be totally different for an LDS than it will be for you. And your definition is definitely different than the Catholic Church’s. Since you believe ultimately that only your interpretation of Scripture can bind you, what keeping your eyes on Jesus entails for you, is totally subjective. As it is for many believers. Your many posts have borne this out.

Is it a straw man, or do you really think pro abortion folk, even Christian , really have their eyes on Jesus on this matter, and that Christ has given them such understanding, that the condition was met for divine illumination ?

Blessings

Not a straw man. The problem is, many (pro-abortion Christians) truly believe they have their eyes on Jesus. The Christians who expounded every heresy throughout the ages truly believed they had their eyes on Jesus. This is what is bound to happen when ultimately you give yourself the authority to bind or loose, rather than who Christ gave the authority. The Catholic Church gives objective guidelines for what keeping your eyes on Jesus entails. Ultimately, for any sola scripturist, it is subjective, because it becomes how they interpret Scripture. Again, your many posts have borne this out.

The following part of a post made my jaw drop.

I would tell anyone to worship with a community of believers that encourages you to form a relationship with Christ and encourages you to become a Good and Faithful servant of Him.

Part of your reply was correct. Truly the devil is in the details.

I have a relative who belongs to a “community” that does not read the epistles of Paul, as they feel he was a false Apostle. This person now is pro-choice, transgender is okay, homosexuality is okay…The minister preaches that every one of these things is not wrong. And they call themselves Christian. This person feels that they have grown extensively spiritually and that their relationship with Christ is deep. This person knows Christ will call them a good and faithful servant when they are judged.

Should I encourage this relative to stay with that community of believers?

 

[lanman87]

Part of your reply was correct. Truly the devil is in the details.

I have a relative who belongs to a “community” that does not read the epistles of Paul, as they feel he was a false Apostle. This person now is pro-choice, transgender is okay, homosexuality is okay…The minister preaches that every one of these things is not wrong. And they call themselves Christian. This person feels that they have grown extensively spiritually and that their relationship with Christ is deep. This person knows Christ will call them a good and faithful servant when they are judged.

Should I encourage this relative to stay with that community of believers?

No, they have been deceived. They are not holding fast to the faith that is expressed in the Bible. Most Protestants would say that he ministers teachings are heresy, because it directly goes against the Bible. It is not even a matter of interpretation, it is flat our denial of truth.

However, there are plenty of Catholics who are pro-choice, transgender is okay, and believe homosexuality is okay. Just look at one our last Vice-Presidential Candidates and about half the members of the Supreme Court. Not to mention the politicians in most Catholic cities like Boston and New York. I wouldn’t say this is a failure of the Catholic church. I would say it is part of spiritual warfare where they are deceived. Just as I would say your relative and their “community” have been deceived.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Would anyone not Catholic and not Orthodox use the same “personal relationship” without an ecclesial structure necessary logic in any other circumstance - for example, “a personal relationship with ones mentor is all that is necessary for academic success, not university or all its educational trappings”; how about, “a personal relationship with ones spouse is all that is necessary for a successful marriage, not having a relationship with the spouses’ family, friends or kin”; and a “personal relationship with one’s manager at work is all that is necessary for success, not extraneous cooperation with ones coworkers to complete tasks”

 

[SyroMalankara]

As an addendum to that, would anyone claim that the University handbook, workplace Manual, or a book on marriage is THE FINAL word on any of those circumstances; or are there person(s) given authority to properly interpret and define those texts in the appropriate context?

 

[Duane1966]

No, they have been deceived. They are not holding fast to the faith that is expressed in the Bible. Most Protestants would say that he ministers teachings are heresy, because it directly goes against the Bible.

And they would not care because this is your private opinion, which is worth about as much as mine to them. You can tell them based on your reading of the Bible that they are wrong, but your statement does not come with the promise of Divine Authority to be infallible. They believe they are holding fast to the truth, as they see it.

It is not even a matter of interpretation, it is flat our denial of truth.

But this person’s community says it is you and your community that is deceived, and that if you truly had the Spirit, you would understand that. They believe they are holding fast to the faith expressed in the Bible.

What they have done is what the Reformers did in the sixteenth century.

However, there are plenty of Catholics who are pro-choice, transgender is okay, and believe homosexuality is okay. Just look at one our last Vice-Presidential Candidates and about half the members of the Supreme Court. Not to mention the politicians in most Catholic cities like Boston and New York. I wouldn’t say this is a failure of the Catholic church. I would say it is part of spiritual warfare where they are deceived. Just as I would say your relative and their “community” have been deceived.

Every one of those Catholics knows they are going against what their Church teaches. If you listen to them, they say we know if Jesus were here today, he would actually agree with us. They are Protestant in heart, for while they want to be called Catholic, they have not submitted their wills to the Church He founded, if they believe it is the Church He founded.

This is the dilemma all Christians must face. Most Christians believe Christ founded a Church, and that He gave that Church Divine Authority to bind and loose. In essence, those Catholics that you talk about believe either one of two things, or perhaps both. They either do not truly believe the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded, and therefore they do not recognize the Church’s authority to bind their wills, or they do not believe that Jesus truly founded and gave a Church such authority.

Christ never said that when His Church binds us, that we as individuals will agree with it. But He did promise that when said Church binds us, it is bound in Heaven. So when we go against that Church’s teachings, (and it must exist somewhere, since Christ said it will last into perpetuity), we are truly going against Jesus.

When you behold the Church, you behold Jesus. - St. Gregory of Nyssa

The Church and Jesus are one and the same.

 

[Duane1966]

Would anyone not Catholic and not Orthodox use the same “personal relationship” without an ecclesial structure necessary logic in any other circumstance - for example, “a personal relationship with ones mentor is all that is necessary for academic success, not university or all its educational trappings”; how about, “a personal relationship with ones spouse is all that is necessary for a successful marriage, not having a relationship with the spouses’ family, friends or kin”; and a “personal relationship with one’s manager at work is all that is necessary for success, not extraneous cooperation with ones coworkers to complete tasks”

As an addendum to what you wrote. Since my relationship with Jesus is supposed to affect how I treat my fellow humans, how is that relationship personal?

 

[James248]

Can I say something?

I just dropped in to this conversation and couldn’t help to say a few words. Faith in God is personal, but it is also ecclesial. Although faith develops in the person, faith comes with knowledge of the Word. The 3000 who were numbered among the first Christians wouldn’t be Christians if it weren’t for Peter’s sermon.

Although God can choose to save everyone without her, the Church is the channel by which God reveals His grace. It is not invisible, but a visible authority, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. It is the Catholic Church.

So in answer to the question, your relationship with Christ and your Church go together. Faith is ecclesial as well as personal.

 

[James248]

Would anyone not Catholic and not Orthodox use the same “personal relationship” without an ecclesial structure necessary logic in any other circumstance - for example, “a personal relationship with ones mentor is all that is necessary for academic success, not university or all its educational trappings”; how about, “a personal relationship with ones spouse is all that is necessary for a successful marriage, not having a relationship with the spouses’ family, friends or kin”; and a “personal relationship with one’s manager at work is all that is necessary for success, not extraneous cooperation with ones coworkers to complete tasks”

Exactly. Faith is ecclesial as well as personal.

 

[PJM]

Hi Patrick,

Does not the CC agree with my post , that one must be born again, absolutely , to see the kingdom, and to see one’s place in the church , that Jesus Christ founded ?

Blessings

Thank you my friend,

I suppose it depends on WHAT exactly one means by the term: “to be born again.?”

We Catholics take it to mean John 3: 5 & Mt 28:19 [To be Baptized

The difference between Catholics and Protestants seems to {ME PERSONALLY HERE] that we see this as the launching point of a Christian Life full of choices Isaiah 43: 7 & 21; AND Sir. 15:17; whereas many non- Catholic-Christians accept belief in Christ as be ALL and EVER sufficient.

That is NOT what the full body of the bible teaches.

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi P,

Then why not insist that all others must become Catholic? Why would the Lord make so many “brethren” in the faith(howbeit not in fullness) , if indeed they most assuredly will not meet your two requirements above…they seem destined to perdition, the Lord bringing life into them for an abysmal end. Why does the church say they show the unity that is the church ?

Blessings

Ahhhhh, THAT is a GREAT question, to which the answer is:

GOD DID NOT, very mortal MEN did it:blush:

Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Smith and the others actually choose to CHALLENGE what God desired, ordained, commanded, and founded and protected.

HOW CAN ONE KNOW THIS WITH CERTITUDE?

1. Because there is but One True God [the 1st commandment[ and EVEN GOD can hold only one set of faith beliefs which were TAUGHT about 1,500 years before the revolution
2. Nowhere in the entire bible can one provide evidence that GOD; Yahweh or Jesus ever desired, accepted, tolerated, permitted ANY competing set of faith-beliefs
3. After 2,000 tears the RCC still has JUST ONE SET of Faith beliefs; while protestants [means to PROTEST] after 500 years have thousands of different churches EACH identified by its OWN set of faith beliefs.
4. Actually friend; ALL salvation does FLOW THROUGH the RCC:thumbsup:
5. Catholics by virtue of BEING Christ One True Church & Faith DO HAVE a huge advantage over all others because it is: [1] the OTC [2] Do have the Seven Sacraments ALL instituted by Jesus Christ to GREATLY Aid ones salvation
6. God does desire that everyone BE joined to Him in and through the RCC
7. Salvation outside the RCC is HIGHLY and precisely conditioal: FROM OUR CATECHISM

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.** He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

i PRAY MY FRIEND, THAT THIS CLARIFIES YOUR QUESIONS

GBY**

 

[PJM]

Can I say something?

I just dropped in to this conversation and couldn’t help to say a few words. Faith in God is personal, but it is also ecclesial. Although faith develops in the person, faith comes with knowledge of the Word. The 3000 who were numbered among the first Christians wouldn’t be Christians if it weren’t for Peter’s sermon.

Although God can choose to save everyone without her, the Church is the channel by which God reveals His grace. It is not invisible, but a visible authority, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. It is the Catholic Church.

Nicely done! THANKS

 

[benhur]

The following part of a post made my jaw drop.

Part of your reply was correct. Truly the devil is in the details.

I have a relative who belongs to a “community” that does not read the epistles of Paul, as they feel he was a false Apostle. This person now is pro-choice, transgender is okay, homosexuality is okay…The minister preaches that every one of these things is not wrong. And they call themselves Christian. This person feels that they have grown extensively spiritually and that their relationship with Christ is deep. This person knows Christ will call them a good and faithful servant when they are judged.

Should I encourage this relative to stay with that community of believers?

Hi D,

Sounds like the devil is in those “details”.

You know, probably my church has a few, and the church across the street.

Perhaps another detail", and one that is in a class by itself, is for a church to say her "details’’,every single one of them, are untouched by the devil ( and of course will point out all others are).

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben,

The part that I highlighted, what does that entail? Christ established one Church to transmit His teachings, and what “keeping our eyes on Jesus” entails. Keeping our eyes on Jesus in all likelihood will be totally different for an LDS than it will be for you. And your definition is definitely different than the Catholic Church’s. Since you believe ultimately that only your interpretation of Scripture can bind you, what keeping your eyes on Jesus entails for you, is totally subjective. As it is for many believers. Your many posts have borne this out.

Hi D,

My word is “conditional”. It is a fact that any truth we or a church carry is conditional upon Christ giving it. And His giving it, is gracious yet conditional. If we abide not, desire Him not, keep our eyes on Him not, we will stray.

Agree that every man sees His ways as righteous, but they are the ways of death, and remain so unless they be born again.

Agree that we bind ourselves to what we believe. But was Peter, or any of us who profess that Jesus is the Son of the living God, making a subjective statement, or did he meet the condition of fully speaking God’s truth and not his own, and that by divine revelation ? Yet for sure Peter made it his own, bound to his gifted faith, so was he subjective?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Not a straw man. The problem is, many (pro-abortion Christians) truly believe they have their eyes on Jesus. The Christians who expounded every heresy throughout the ages truly believed they had their eyes on Jesus. This is what is bound to happen when ultimately you give yourself the authority to bind or loose, rather than who Christ gave the authority. The Catholic Church gives objective guidelines for what keeping your eyes on Jesus entails. Ultimately, for any sola scripturist, it is subjective, because it becomes how they interpret Scripture. Again, your many posts have borne this out.

Hi D,

Again, agree, that everyone thinks himself or their church to be on the right path, even you. Are you not saying you are not subjective in saying only the Catholic church is objective ? I mean we agree all folks say that.

We all exercise free will. We all falter unless Christ enlightens us. There is a “real Mccoy”, just as there falsehoods. A church claiming to solve the problem of "knowing’’, being "objective’’ for its faithful ,is just as problematic for a church to say Writ by itself will solve the problem.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Christ never said that when His Church binds us, that we as individuals will agree with it. But He did promise that when said Church binds us, it is bound in Heaven. So when we go against that Church’s teachings, (and it must exist somewhere, since Christ said it will last into perpetuity), we are truly going against Jesus.

Hi D,

I have read that the proper rendering is that whatever is bound in heaven shall be bound by the church . This was foreshadowed in OT where Christ says do what the Pharisees say when they speak from the chair of Moses, while also saying beware of their leaven (false doctrine), do not obey that.

Just because the church can truly bind does not do away with the condition that it must be of God first (conditional). It is not carte blanche , or “once right always right”.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Hi D,

Sounds like the devil is in those “details”.

Perhaps another detail", and one that is in a class by itself, is for a church to say her "details’’,every single one of them, are untouched by the devil ( and of course will point out all others are).

Hi Ben, thanks for the replies.

Well Ben, Christ established one Church, correct? And He gave that Church the power to bind and loose, correct? He gave that Church infallibility. I am sure you will disagree with that statement, but I will prove it later on in addressing one of your other replies. And He promised to give that Church the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. THIS CHURCH MUST BE VISIBLE. Otherwise this Church could not bind and loose anyone, as no one would truly know who is in authority. But the Council of Jerusalem clearly shows that it was a visible Church, and clearly shows who had authority in the Church. Now if this Church has taught error, then Christ is a liar, as the Spirit obviously did not guide it into all truth. It is not arrogant of the Catholic Church to say she cannot teach error. She truly believes the promises of Christ. It is far more problematic for you. Your denomination does not claim that it will not teach error. If they are truly the one Church that Christ established, they should be shouting they are infallible from the rooftops. It should be fundamental to them.

Agree that we bind ourselves to what we believe.

Not everyone does this. I know of people who did not understand why the CC taught contraception was a grave sin. They felt their was nothing wrong with contraception. They followed the Church anyway. They truly let the Church bind their wills. And now years later, they understand, and are happier for having followed the Church when they doubted her teachings.

But was Peter, or any of us who profess that Jesus is the Son of the living God, making a subjective statement, or did he meet the condition of fully speaking God’s truth and not his own, and that by divine revelation? Yet for sure Peter made it his own, bound to his gifted faith, so was he subjective?

Blessings

Truth is objective. For a Christian, Peter was being objective. How do you think one who practiced Judaism would respond?

Hi D,

Again, agree, that everyone thinks himself or their church to be on the right path, even you. Are you not saying you are not subjective in saying only the Catholic church is objective ? I mean we agree all folks say that.

We all exercise free will. …

Blessings

Unless that Church was given Divine Authority. Ben, I know you don’t think that Church is the CC, but where is that Church now? Surely, if Christ is not a liar, that Church must exist somewhere, with the Divine Authority that when she speaks you hear Christ, and when you reject what she says, you reject Christ. If that Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written down, surely that Church must exist today, else Christ is a liar again. If that Church was visible in the first century, then it must be visible today.

Hi D,

I have read that the proper rendering is that whatever is bound in heaven shall be bound by the church . This was foreshadowed in OT where Christ says do what the Pharisees say when they speak from the chair of Moses, while also saying beware of their leaven (false doctrine), do not obey that.

Just because the church can truly bind does not do away with the condition that it must be of God first (conditional). It is not carte blanche , or “once right always right”.

Blessings

What you have read is wrong. Here is the passage:

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Ummm no. You try to change Jesus’ words, but shall means it is not bound or loosed until the Church decides to bind or loose. AND SINCE HEAVEN CANNOT CONTAIN ANY ERROR, THE CHURCH WILL NEVER BIND OR LOOSE IN ERROR. For to loose error on Earth, would mean error is loosed in Heaven. That is why the Church is infallible.

By the way, your once right always right statement, is just an excuse to not listen to Jesus when He speaks through His Church. It is hard to listen to His Church when she teaches something that you, as an individual, thinks is wrong. Christ never promised that when His Church binds, we will agree with the binding, or loosing. He does promise that the Church, when she does exercise that power, will get it right from the beginning. The funny thing is, nowhere do I see where Jesus says that it will not be once right, always right. In fact, if it is not once right always right, then He cannot be God. If it is not once right, always right, then He established a Church that teaches error, and the gates of Hell prevailed.

Prots have a horrible problem on their hands. They cannot state that their “churches” have not taught error (This is proven from the Lambeth Conference of 1930. Before this, almost all of Christianity taught that contraception was a grave sin. Now just about all teach it is not a sin. Either error was taught before that conference, or error has been taught after. This is bound to have happened, as they do not have the authority to bind or loose.). They know they do not have the birth-right that Christ gave His Church, so they try to tear down any that would claim that they are that Church. Truly, beware this modern leaven.