Dog, Cow or Jackass?

[NeedImprovement]

Hi dogknox.

I don’t really see myself disagreeing with anything you say in general (although I have been called a donkey on occasion ] ).

I might add that, although we say man is created in the image of God, the most accurate image of God we have is actually a married couple - a man and woman together.

It is funny how different animals affect our thinking though. Like when we think of a dog, we often think … “loyal”.

St. Augustine said , “The hippopotamus is proof that God has a sense of humour.”

Animals glorify God their Creator - that would seem sufficient in itself.

 

[severus68]

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

Animals cannot sin because they have no free will. They have emotions and love.

The dogs who ran into burning houses did it out of the instinct to save its loved ones, Humans do it too. They were not trained to do. What about the cat who ran back into a burning house and brought out its kittens one by one although it got burned?

That we are made in God’s image gives us great responsibility.We have free will. and greater intellect but that is a privilege.

Animals come from God too,

Christ did not come to save animals as they do not sin and need no salvation.

It really does not matter whether anyone says animals cannot and do not love, I know they do. I am sure St Francis would agree with me.

 

[dogknox]

Hi dogknox.
I don’t really see myself disagreeing with anything you say in general (although I have been called a donkey on occasion ] ).
I might add that, although we say man is created in the image of God, the most accurate image of God we have is actually a married couple - a man and woman together.
It is funny how different animals affect our thinking though. Like when we think of a dog, we often think … “loyal”.
St. Augustine said , “The hippopotamus is proof that God has a sense of humour.”
Animals glorify God their Creator - that would seem sufficient in itself.

Hello** NeedImprovement** I hope all is well…
I reply: As far as calling someone a “Jackass” is this…
On occasion I run into the odd Atheist, their common claim is… “There is NO God thus there is No sin!”

Thinking to themselves that; “because I (the Atheist) don’t believe there is sin, I can go my merry way with no hindrances (sin) to hold me back”.
This is where the “jackass” comes into the conversation…I point out, they are no more then a common animal because; animals also can’t sin! I point out, they are lowering themselves to just being an animal, by believing the way they do!

Truth be told… Most are not genuine “Atheist”! To be Atheist is to not believe in anything. To hold this “Belief” they are believing in something!
They have “Beliefs” whether they admit it or not!

 

[dogknox]

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

Animals cannot sin because they have no free will. They have emotions and love.

The dogs who ran into burning houses did it out of the instinct to save its loved ones, Humans do it too. They were not trained to do. What about the cat who ran back into a burning house and brought out its kittens one by one although it got burned?
That we are made in God’s image gives us great responsibility.We have free will. and greater intellect but that is a privilege.
Animals come from God too,
Christ did not come to save animals as they do not sin and need no salvation.

It really does not matter whether anyone says animals cannot and do not love, I know they do. I am sure St Francis would agree with me.

severus68 Thank you for your reply.
I point out… there are a many Emotions …but “Love Faith & Hope are NOT emotions.”
They are gifts from God… You have confused the topic with your own emotions!

The cat rescued the kittens because of “Animal Instinct”! Think of any animal in the animal kingdom and the mother will defend her offspring as best she can! It is NOT love!
If you have your way… Cows, donkeys, worms, snakes, wombats, slugs, kangaroos, fish, one celled protozoa will all be loving…“ANIMALS!” Just where do you draw the line???

FACT: (one more time) Only man is made in the image of love!
To say “a cow can love”, is to say “cows can sin!”
FACT: (one more time) Only man can sin… to be man is to be a sinner! I have met people that have told me… “I have no sins”. I reply; “then you are lowering yourself to being just a brute beast, because they also have no sins!”

severus68 The virgin Mary… Is a sinner, NOT because she has sins, but because; “She is man”!
To say; “Blessed Mary is NOT a sinner”, is to say, Mary is not made in the image of God: Wrong!!
There is a difference between “Being a sinner” and “Being with sin”!

Mary is without sin!<<< >>>Mary is a sinner!<<< because Mary is man!<<< >>>Mary is NOT an animal!<<<

severus68 To say: “You have no sins” is to say you are NOT man!
Do you understand? around and around ha-ha
Mary is man! She was made in the Image of God, she has the capability to love or to hate… to sin or not to sin!

Love is free will… I can’t force you to love me…
severus68 “If you refuse to love me, I will punch you in the nose”!
**Question **would your love for me be true love!

severus68 “If you promise to love me, I will pay you eighteen dollars”!
**Question **would your love for me be true love!

Love is a work of the heart, it is GIVING of self, from the heart! Only man has “free will” to let go of self for others!
Man was saved by; LOVE Alone!
Man will enter through the door of love, we both know; “God IS Love”!

 

[markbrumbaugh]

My dog loves me. What the heck is your point?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Father John Hardon, SJ , describes the sinlessness of our Blessed Mother this way :

SINLESSNESS OF MARY.
Freedom from original and all actual sin of the Blessed Virgin. By a special privilege of grace Mary was preserved from all venial sin and, in fact, she was also impeccable. She could not sin, because of the extraordinary grace she received as the Mother ofGod. Moreover, she was freed from all unruly passions, concupiscence, which are the effects of sin.

---

She never committed any sins . In this sense, she really can’t be called a sinner. But the human nature she took on did need saving . And God did save Her , but it was at the moment of Her conception .

 

[dogknox]

My dog loves me. What the heck is your point?

markbrumbaugh I hope all is well…
My point… Love is only for Man and God.
You love your dog? Then you love the creation NOT the creator!
You probably love your car and your money also!!
You think your dog loves you…Then you reject…“Man is made in the image of God”?? Is this it? You don’t understand your dog is;** Not equal to God!!!** … try reading the scriptures!
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so **that they may rule over **the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

My point… IF you love then you are MAN! If you refuse to love then you SIN!

My point… ONLY…“MAN” is made in the image of God… not dogs not cows!
God is LOVE! If…
If you love then you have God inside, if you refuse to love then you reject God!
It is just this simple!!

My point… All who say…“I am without sin or I can’t sin (atheists)”, they are really saying… “I am not a man”, they are lowering themselves to that of a beast, a dog… or as in the title of this thread>> “Jackass”!

**My point… **When you pray to God start with… “Forgive me Jesus I am a man, I am a sinner”!!

My point is… Man is a higher being… To think your dog can LOVE, then your are rejecting the scriptures, and LOGIC!

 

[dogknox]

Father John Hardon, SJ , describes the sinlessness of our Blessed Mother this way :

SINLESSNESS OF MARY.
Freedom from original and all actual sin of the Blessed Virgin. By a special privilege of grace Mary was preserved from all venial sin and, in fact, she was also impeccable. She could not sin, because of the extraordinary grace she received as the Mother of God. Moreover, she was freed from all unruly passions, concupiscence, which are the effects of sin.

---

She never committed any sins . In this sense, she really can’t be called a sinner. But the human nature she took on did need saving . And God did save Her , but it was at the moment of Her conception .

NeedImprovement You say Mary, “COULD NOT Sin”!
So you are saying; “Mary did not have free will???”
So you are saying; Mary is not “Man”?
So you are saying; Mary is NOT made in the Image of God??
So you are saying; Mary is no higher then a common animal!? Because Animals also can’t sin!

I point out.. by saying Mary can’t sin then you take away…Luke 1:38 as Mary’s gift to us! It becomes no longer a gift, of Love!
Luke 1:38
“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

NeedImprovement Luke 1:38 becomes a robotic, programed response… You take away from Mary her “YES”: “May your word to me be fulfilled.”
What you are doing is saying; “Any old woman would have worked to be used as a womb for Jesus!”
You take Mary’s choice from her!!
Do you understand???

**I reply: **“Jesus was tempted by Satan”, **Jesus is MAN!!! **Jesus could not sin, OR if he did he would not be perfect, he would not be God! It does not mean he could not sin, it means he is MAN >>Perfected<<!!

To say Jesus is NOT 100% “man” is to reject the teaching of the Catholic Church!
To say Jesus is NOT 100% “man” is to make God into a robot, with no choice, it is to say Jesus, can’t love!
If Jesus decided NOT to love then he would be sinning!
To LOVE= To give of self from the heart>>FREELY<<!

To sin is to not do the commands of God! It is just this simple!
Adam was also made perfect, Adam was also made without sin & the perfect “MAN” did sin! Jesus is a second Adam he also is made perfect, but he unlike Adam did not sin…
It does NOT mean Jesus could NOT have sinned, it means Jesus was tempted, tested, tortured, and crucified and did not sin!

Matthew 26:39
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Free will is deciding to “LOVE” if you take away “free will” then you are NOT man!!
It is just this simple!!!

John 14:15
" **If **you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 15:10
" **If **you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 15:17
"This I command you, that you love one another.

 

[NeedImprovement]

NeedImprovement You say Mary, “COULD NOT Sin”!
So you are saying; “Mary did not have free will???”
… by saying Mary can’t sin then you take away…Luke 1:38 as Mary’s gift to us! It becomes no longer a gift, of Love!
Luke 1:38
“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

NeedImprovement Luke 1:38 becomes a robotic, programed response… You take away from Mary her “YES”: “May your word to me be fulfilled.”
What you are doing is saying; “Any old woman would have worked to be used as a womb for Jesus!”
You take Mary’s choice from her!!
Do you understand???

Actually, I thought I made it clear that those were Father John Hardon S.J.'s words. Mine came below after the separator :

She never committed any sins . In this sense, she really can’t be called a sinner. But the human nature she took on did need saving . And God did save Her , but it was at the moment of Her conception

… those were my words. Neither can you infer from my words that Mary could not sin, since I said she needed saving.

You, however did call her a “sinner” and although you don’t mean it within the context of actually having committed sin, that is what “sinner” usually implies in everyday english.

I don’t see this next part precisely the same way as you do dogknox :

NeedImprovement You say Mary, “COULD NOT Sin”!
So you are saying; “Mary did not have free will???”
… by saying Mary can’t sin then you take away…Luke 1:38 as Mary’s gift to us! It becomes no longer a gift, of Love!
Luke 1:38
“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

NeedImprovement Luke 1:38 becomes a robotic, programed response… You take away from Mary her “YES”: “May your word to me be fulfilled.”
What you are doing is saying; “Any old woman would have worked to be used as a womb for Jesus!”
You take Mary’s choice from her!!
Do you understand??? …

I would think that perhaps (I’m not him so I don’t know for sure) that Father Hardon meant to convey that when one’s free will is transparent to the will of God - as our Blessed Mother’s is/was, then it is impossible for one to sin, because as a human, one has become united with God in the most singular, intimate conceiveable way.

The Immaculate Heart of Mary being forever free from sin from the moment of Her Immaculate Conception , does not imply she had no free will. I agree with you that without free will, we simply aren’t human. But free will is a gift from God - sin is a device of the devil, his fallen angels and of humans. The fallen angels have sinned eternally … yet they are not human.

Try looking at it from God’s perspective. The angel Gabriel came to Mary with an invitation from God. If we understand all the ramifications of free will , when Gabriel presented God’s invitation to Mary - she was free to say yes or no - under no penalty of sin ; otherwise, if our Blessed Mother was only free to say yes under penalty of sin, She never had any free will to begin with … then indeed a slave/robot, but by your definition - not mine.

I’ve always seen it as counterproductive and as a stumbling block to associate our Blessed Mother with sin - it only serves to obscure the truth… nothing else to add on this matter.

This thread would probably be more at home in the philosophy forum as opposed to social justice.

I apologize I won’t be able to continue with this thread because I’m leaving some of my work undone.
God Bless.

 

[dogknox]

Actually, I thought I made it clear that those were Father John Hardon S.J.'s words. Mine came below after the separator :
… those were my words. Neither can you infer from my words that Mary could not sin, since I said she needed saving.
You, however did call her a “sinner” and although you don’t mean it within the context of actually having committed sin, that is what “sinner” usually implies in everyday english.
I don’t see this next part precisely the same way as you do dogknox :

I would think that perhaps (I’m not him so I don’t know for sure) that Father Hardon meant to convey that when one’s free will is transparent to the will of God - as our Blessed Mother’s is/was, then it is impossible for one to sin, because as a human, one has become united with God in the most singular, intimate conceiveable way.
The Immaculate Heart of Mary being forever free from sin from the moment of Her Immaculate Conception , does not imply she had no free will. I agree with you that without free will, we simply aren’t human. But free will is a gift from God - sin is a device of the devil, his fallen angels and of humans. The fallen angels have sinned eternally … yet they are not human.
Try looking at it from God’s perspective. The angel Gabriel came to Mary with an invitation from God. If we understand all the ramifications of free will , when Gabriel presented God’s invitation to Mary - she was free to say yes or no - under no penalty of sin ; otherwise, if our Blessed Mother was only free to say yes under penalty of sin, She never had any free will to begin with … then indeed a slave/robot, but by your definition - not mine.

I’ve always seen it as counterproductive and as a stumbling block to associate our Blessed Mother with sin - it only serves to obscure the truth… nothing else to add on this matter.
God Bless.

NeedImprovement Your words… The fallen angels have sinned eternally … yet they are not human.
I reply: The Angels have already been Judged! We have not.
The Angels were formed and placed into heaven… ALL started out their existence “IN Heaven!” It is very obvious some did not want to love… Those that decided by their, “Free Will” NOT to love were removed. Those that decided by “Free Will” to LOVE were allowed to stay! They were separated by their own choice, they decided to LOVE/Not love!
NOW… Today the Angels and Demons have been judged… The Demon CAN’T love, He would never ever want to love so “HE CAN’T”, he is 100% pure HATE! Absent of all LOVE… VOID of God!
The Angels are 100% pure LOVE… they have been judged… They cannot not hate, they would never, ever want to hate>>NEVER<<! They are FULL of grace and LOVE!

WE… >>> Mary Included<<< have not been judged… Mary had free will, she had choice as the Angels “DID”! The only difference is MAN was formed and placed on the earth. We were not formed and placed in heaven, as the Angels! Now…
Now God does not have to remove anyone from heaven…only the “MAN” that chooses to love will enter… as Mary made her choice… Freely she decided to LOVE, to give of herself!
She could have still sinned to say she could not sin, you are taking away from Mary her CHOICE her freedom to “Love or not to Love”!

Your words…

then it is impossible for one to sin, because as a human, one has become united with God in the most singular, intimate conceiveable way.
The Immaculate Heart of Mary being forever free from sin from the moment of Her Immaculate Conception , does not imply she had no free will.

By saying this, (above) you are saying Mary was already JUDGED! WRONG!

Yes we know Mary’s choice, we know Mary is in heaven… but she still had a choice as the Angels had their choice!

**Dogknox **