Dog ghosts or...?

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What I am saying is, NO ONE can say animals will not be in heaven with us. Only God knows. However, He obviously knows we love them and God loves them too.

This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head.”
Ephesians 1:10

“Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water.” Isaiah 11:6-9

“Search in the Lord’s book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever.” Isaiah 34:16, 17

ANIMALS AND GOD

God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

“Then God commanded, ‘Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw.”
Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

“All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields.”
Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

“Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them”
Matthew 6:26
“He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call.” Psalm 147:9

Hosea 2:20 - I will make a covenant for them on that day, with the beasts of the field, with the birds of the air, and with the things that crawl on the ground. Bow and sword and war I will destroy from the land, and I will let them take their rest in security.

Job 12:7-10 - But now ask the beasts (cattle) to teach you, and the birds of the air to tell you; or the reptiles on the earth to instruct you, and the fish of the sea to inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of God has done this? In his hand is the soul of every living thing, and the life breath of all mankind.

Revelation 5:8-13 All creatures recognize Jesus as the Savior of the world and praise God right along with redeemed men.

Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21 God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 8:19 says that the lesser creatures await Christ’s return to redeem the sons of God so they, too, will be released from physical death to eternal life.

Romans 8:21-22 says “Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now”
This.

Who’s to say there will be no animals in the world to come either? It’s not really clear. I know there is disputed teaching on this subject but I don’t think God would mind letting us see our animal friends again after all he is all loving.
 
This.

Who’s to say there will be no animals in the world to come either? It’s not really clear. I know there is disputed teaching on this subject but I don’t think God would mind letting us see our animal friends again after all he is all loving.
The compilation of verses vary in relevence greatly. They don’t really pertain to animal’;s souls after death at all. And I’m sure some are taken out of context or misinterpreted.

I confronted them here:
A lot of these quotes don’t really mention Heaven or salvation. They talk about Animal’s relation to Humanity but they can be interpreted any which way. For instance, that Romans 8:19 quote says: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God.” This doesn’t say Heaven or salvation or even Eternal Life. They will be released from their bonds on Earth.
 
The compilation of verses vary in relevence greatly. They don’t really pertain to animal’;s souls after death at all. And I’m sure some are taken out of context or misinterpreted.

I confronted them here:
I suppose you have a point and I’m not denying that, however I guess I’m just a rebel for continuing to believe there will always be animals. I mean Genesis says God created the animals for us and they are so innocent, I don’t think he would deprive us of their companionship.
 
In order for it to be said as self serving, it would first need to be intended to be self serving. I can assure you, I have no such intent when I say that a rational mind (albeit one that possesses moral reason) is needed for Heaven and to see the Beatific Vision.
I apologize if my post appeared critical of you or anybody else on the forum.

I was nOt addressing you, but rather the legions of philosophers who came up with the same answer long ago. (It does seem a wee bit self serving that a philosopher would tie eternal life to the ability to do philosophy!)

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
 
I suppose you have a point and I’m not denying that, however I guess I’m just a rebel for continuing to believe there will always be animals. I mean Genesis says God created the animals for us and they are so innocent, I don’t think he would deprive us of their companionship.
But think of it. Animals are beings of this world. Not Divine, not spiritual but instead fully material. They have souls, yes, but they have no reason to be in Heaven. They were made FOR us, indeed, but only in life will they serve and obey us (or some, seek our ruin). They are there for our benefit, but they are still life given by God so it must also be respected, like any of God’s gifts. They are there for many reasons. Food, protection, even for childish whims or fancies. They are there to help us and, as you said, be our companions. We must remember that in Heaven, we wont need these animals. As St. Matthew put it, “For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.” This is describing us, people. We wont be married, we wont need spouses. It will be a very personal and intimate communion that occurs between ourselves and God, one that animals cannot participate and one that we participate in personally.
I apologize if my post appeared critical of you or anybody else on the forum.

I was nOt addressing you, but rather the legions of philosophers who came up with the same answer long ago. (It does seem a wee bit self serving that a philosopher would tie eternal life to the ability to do philosophy!)

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
I didn’t think you were addressing that to me, though I did comment as if you were, hoping to perish such a thought.
 
I am thinking since your family member was shoved by an unseen hand, that the “dog ghosts” may not be dogs at all! I agree that the house should be blessed. As for animals being in Heaven, God can do ANYTHING–He’s GOD! So if He wants them there, they will be there, even if they don’t have souls. They are His creations after all–He can do with them as He pleases. Truth is, we really don’t know and should just leave it up to God in His Wisdom. But I do think we are forgetting that one day there will be a new Heaven and a NEW EARTH. On this new earth, surely there will be animals. Perhaps it is then that we will see our beloved pets or others like them. The new earth will be what the Garden of Eden was before the Fall. So even if our pets won’t be in Heaven, it’s possible they will be part of the new Earth.
 
As for animals being in Heaven, God can do ANYTHING–He’s GOD! So if He wants them there, they will be there, even if they don’t have souls. They are His creations after all–He can do with them as He pleases. Truth is, we really don’t know and should just leave it up to God in His Wisdom. But I do think we are forgetting that one day there will be a new Heaven and a NEW EARTH. On this new earth, surely there will be animals. Perhaps it is then that we will see our beloved pets or others like them. The new earth will be what the Garden of Eden was before the Fall. So even if our pets won’t be in Heaven, it’s possible they will be part of the new Earth.
I wont dispute that God can, indeed, do anything. However, this doesn’t mean that He would or that it is the case. He created them without reason, without rationale, and without a moral “compass”. I don’t think God would choose to pull a 180 and decide that animals can go to Heaen just for the sake of it.

I don’t pretend to know what will be in the new world.
 
I am thinking since your family member was shoved by an unseen hand, that the “dog ghosts” may not be dogs at all! I agree that the house should be blessed. As for animals being in Heaven, God can do ANYTHING–He’s GOD! So if He wants them there, they will be there, even if they don’t have souls. They are His creations after all–He can do with them as He pleases. Truth is, we really don’t know and should just leave it up to God in His Wisdom. But I do think we are forgetting that one day there will be a new Heaven and a NEW EARTH. On this new earth, surely there will be animals. Perhaps it is then that we will see our beloved pets or others like them. The new earth will be what the Garden of Eden was before the Fall. So even if our pets won’t be in Heaven, it’s possible they will be part of the new Earth.
This is what I was trying to say earlier by the world to come. and I agree with this post.
 
But why would God need to take care of them? They lack a moral sense. They cannot decide right from wrong. That is a large thing that separates human souls from that of animal souls. Animal souls cease to exist upon death. Our souls are rational while their souls aren’t they cannot go to Heaven. They lack the Beatific Vision. I would love to think that my dear sweet dog, Abbie, would go to Heaven, but I don’t see the sense in it.
God is ALL LOVE. Just as you felt a need to take care of Abbie here on this earth, so does He in heaven. We are made in His Image. If God didn’t care for His animals, why did he command us to care for them?

Animals have not sinned. They are innocent and do what they were created to do. It might not be pleasant to us, but that’s the way it is. There is no right nor wrong in the animal world.

The Garden of Eden, before he fall, was where Adam and Eve lived in harmony with all of his creatures. I think that is the way it is in heaven.
 
I agree with the above. We sinned, animals did not, so why should the reward be limited to us? God specifically states He cares for the animals.

When we sinned, we effectively made Eden impossible to live in. We brought all of creation down with us to an Earth in which no comfort is guaranteed, and creatures live in competition with each other. It is not the fault of the animals that this took place, but ours. God, in His infinite mercy AND justice, would not allow the animals, whom He loves, to fall into a disturbed creation and then leave them to die there through no fault of their own. I personally believe every animal on this earth goes to meet with God again and lives in an Eden like the one that was lost.
 
A lot of these quotes don’t really mention Heaven or salvation. They talk about Animal’s relation to Humanity but they can be interpreted any which way. For instance, that Romans 8:19 quote says: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God.” This doesn’t say Heaven or salvation or even Eternal Life. They will be released from their bonds on Earth.
Yes, they do mention eternal life, as I post again:

Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21 God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 8:19 says that the lesser creatures await Christ’s return to redeem the sons of God so they, too, will be released from physical death to eternal life.
 
Yes, they do mention eternal life, as I post again:

Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21 God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 8:19 says that the lesser creatures await Christ’s return to redeem the sons of God so they, too, will be released from physical death to eternal life.
Romans doesn’t say eternal life in the actual verse. At least not in the Douay Rheims.

EDIT: Show me where animals are included in psalms 145, I just read it all and I didn’t get that indication.
 
You’re right, it doesn’t say the words eternal life, whoops. But that is what I infer:

Romans 8:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Looks like someone was paraphrasing about Psalm 145 as I cut it off of the net.

Psalms 145:16 “Thou openest Thine hand, And satisfiest the desire of every living thing.”

Of course that could mean on this earth. Sorry.

I did find some more and the first two could mean “only while on this earth” but 3:21 looks promising for us animal lovers:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 - For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 - All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 - Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

Found some commentary as well about this thread although again it doesn’t prove anything for sure:

Solomon most evidently makes an essential difference between the human soul and that of brutes. Both have souls, but of different natures: the soul of man was made for God, and to God it shall return: God is its portion, and when a holy soul leaves the body, it goes to paradise. The soul of the beast was made to derive its happiness from this lower world. Brutes shall have a resurrection, and have an endless enjoyment in a new earth. The body of man shall arise, and join his soul that is already above; and both enjoy final blessedness in the fruition of God. That Solomon did not believe they had the same kind of spirit, and the same final lot, as some materialists and infidels say, is evident from Ecclesiastes 12:7 : “The spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
 
I wont dispute that God can, indeed, do anything. However, this doesn’t mean that He would or that it is the case. He created them without reason, without rationale, and without a moral “compass”. I don’t think God would choose to pull a 180 and decide that animals can go to Heaen just for the sake of it.

I don’t pretend to know what will be in the new world.
I agree with your posts.

Animals are here on earth to serve an earthly purpose, not a spiritual one. In Heaven, there is no need to eat, drink, shower, or do any earthly things,animals being included in the earthly things.

Animals wouldnt know how to appreciate heaven, their minds are too simple and driven and wired completely for earthly survival.

Anyhow, we wont need animals in heaven to be happy, youll be in the presence of God.

Also, ive read that demons are exquisite deceivers, especially when it comes to immitating your lost love ones, in this case, maybe the pet dog. Just know that its not your loved one or animal you are coming into contact with. Ill second the house blessing suggestion
 
People here quote the Bible and use verses by tweaking their interpretations. I don’t understand how EWTN, Aquinas, and our own Catholic Answers can all be collectively wrong while saying, essentially the same logical thing.
 
The whole topic of animals having a soul or not does not seem to address either the chruch’s blessing of the animals or the impact of St. Francis of Asisi (spelling) as the Patron Saint of animals and pets.

Some animals are as smart as a tack and other are as inept as a stone. One of my pets cannot find its way home from next door, but another will search the house for her toy, and another has mourned the loss of his friend. So yes I do believe that every pet that I have owned has checked in with me after they have left. They do have a way of communicating without words.

In a way I do believe that St Francis is keeping my departed pets until I rejoin them in the fulness of time. Further each day in my prayers I ask his help for them and for my ability to care for them. So I don’t think that it is against the teachings to include them in prayers.

I bring my pets to church for their annual blessing and have done so for years. Sometimes I even walk the church grounds and it grotto and when I do see my priest I do ask for a blessing for them. He never refuses the request. If this was against the teaching of God why does the church do this and have a parton saint for them?

Going outside of the bible it was Mark Twain who wrote to the effect that that more he learned about people the more he liked his dog.
 
I think I’ll respond to each of your points separately as they vary.
The whole topic of animals having a soul or not does not seem to address either the chruch’s blessing of the animals or the impact of St. Francis of Asisi (spelling) as the Patron Saint of animals and pets.
Before I get started on St. Francis, allow me to clarify the point that I, and those who are stressing this point are making. We are not saying that animals lack souls. To say so would be a complete disregard of Scripture and Traditional teachings. What we are, instead inferring is that the souls are different. Animals have a fully material soul that, after expiration, ceases to exist. While a human soul carries on per God’s Will. It cannot be denied that animals have not seen the Beatific Vision. They lack moral direction, rationale, and reason (despite any disciplinary action or training that may take place). Naturally one cannot think a puppy sinned for nipping at you, this is silly. Animals cannot sin, but likewise are not bound by virtue. I hope I clarified my point.

Saint Francis of Assisi has been greatly personified as the lover of animals and nature alike. It is indeed a common sight to see a statue of him in a garden, or holding a bird feeder, or with animals. Admittedly, we had one in our garden for some time until it began to show signs of wear. Saint Francis has certainly interceded, I’m sure, on behalf of many pet owners concerning their pets. And this speaks highly of his renown as a patron for our loving friends.

Now, to the point concerning the Blessing of Saint Francis upon pets and animals. I am unsure of what you are inferring by this. The blessing of Saint Francis deals with life. Not death. The blessing is thus:

“N.(name of animal, i.e. “Smokey”, not cat/dog) may you be
blessed in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit. May you and N. (the name of the “owner”) enjoy
life together and find joy with the God who created you.”

Now, this says nothing concerning Eternal life. Now personally, I find the entire thing a bit silly, but I do appreciate that owners are so caring for their pets that they go to such lengths. There are also other blessings. I have found three, including this one, and none of them endorse the theology of animal’s attaining Eternal Life.
Some animals are as smart as a tack and other are as inept as a stone. One of my pets cannot find its way home from next door, but another will search the house for her toy, and another has mourned the loss of his friend. So yes I do believe that every pet that I have owned has checked in with me after they have left. They do have a way of communicating without words.
I do not dispute that some animals are intelligent and can, possibly, have emotion. This does not, however, change anything I said in my previous rebuttals. Now I am confused as to why you name three instances where your pets have displayed “intelligent” (or in the first case, lack there of) thought as reasons why they would “check in” with you. And if they were to be able to enter Heaven, why would they be ghosts? Why would they haunt their former lives’ homes?

I see a bit of a clash of opinions.
In a way I do believe that St Francis is keeping my departed pets until I rejoin them in the fulness of time. Further each day in my prayers I ask his help for them and for my ability to care for them. So I don’t think that it is against the teachings to include them in prayers.
For the sake of discussion I will, for this instance alone, act as if Saint Francis was keeping your departed pets. If this is true, who kept the departed pets before Saint Francis? Francis, while indeed divinely inspired I’m sure, is not Divine.

You go on to include that you don’t believe it against the laws of Holy Mother Church to include pets in our prayers. I assume you mean departed pets, if I made a mistake in assuming this, do forgive me. Do you mean to say that departed pets should be prayed for in Heaven? After they are dead? If so, why? Surely they aren’t in Purgatory as no sin has been committed for them to be purged of. Please clarify this point as I’m interested in what you mean by it.
I bring my pets to church for their annual blessing and have done so for years. Sometimes I even walk the church grounds and it grotto and when I do see my priest I do ask for a blessing for them. He never refuses the request. If this was against the teaching of God why does the church do this and have a parton saint for them?
No one is saying that blessing animals is “against the teaching of God”. Blessing animals is, I’m sure, a pious practice and the owners should be commended for seeking this. But again, as before, I ask you, what does this have to do with animals attaining Eternal Life?
Going outside of the bible it was Mark Twain who wrote to the effect that that more he learned about people the more he liked his dog.
This may be true, but it doesn’t help (nor hinder) an argument for animals attaining Eternal Life, salvation, etc.
 
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful answers. Although I enjoyed reading this thread, It seems to have gotten derailed just a little bit. I never was questioning whether animals have an afterlife (heaven) like ours. My question was concerning the probability of having both a “human” ghost and an “animal” ghost in the same house. Now, I’m assuming that my parents and my niece actually did hear (what they thought were) their dead dogs. I have no reason to disbelieve them. They have never made up crazy stuff before or since. Yet they also have had encounters with feeling touched by unseen hands, one of them violently. To me, the barking that they heard sounds like a demon might be masquerading as a dog. I’m sure it wasn’t a dead dog that pushed my mother!

Now, if what my parents and niece heard actually really were their dead dogs, I’m guessing that God has allowed this visit as a comfort to them. Yet, my niece reported that she was not all that “comforted” by this visitation. She was pretty well wigged out by it. And this would also mean that this house has both two dog ghosts and one or two human ghosts. This is too much for my brain to wrap around. :confused: 😃

As for whether dogs have souls or not, who knows? They may very well have souls. But I find it difficult to believe that they will be with us in heaven. But then who knows? We’ll know when we get there! 🙂

Also, the stories from a couple of posters about seeing their pets after death was nice, thanks for your stories. In a lot of ways, the anonymity of the internet is a good thing. We can talk about things that most would be hesitant to bring up face-to-face.
 
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful answers. Although I enjoyed reading this thread, It seems to have gotten derailed just a little bit. I never was questioning whether animals have an afterlife (heaven) like ours. My question was concerning the probability of having both a “human” ghost and an “animal” ghost in the same house. Now, I’m assuming that my parents and my niece actually did hear (what they thought were) their dead dogs. I have no reason to disbelieve them. They have never made up crazy stuff before or since. Yet they also have had encounters with feeling touched by unseen hands, one of them violently. To me, the barking that they heard sounds like a demon might be masquerading as a dog. I’m sure it wasn’t a dead dog that pushed my mother!

Now, if what my parents and niece heard actually really were their dead dogs, I’m guessing that God has allowed this visit as a comfort to them. Yet, my niece reported that she was not all that “comforted” by this visitation. She was pretty well wigged out by it. And this would also mean that this house has both two dog ghosts and one or two human ghosts. This is too much for my brain to wrap around. :confused: 😃

As for whether dogs have souls or not, who knows? They may very well have souls. But I find it difficult to believe that they will be with us in heaven. But then who knows? We’ll know when we get there! 🙂

Also, the stories from a couple of posters about seeing their pets after death was nice, thanks for your stories. In a lot of ways, the anonymity of the internet is a good thing. We can talk about things that most would be hesitant to bring up face-to-face.
I feel I must apologize. Though I didn’t “start the fire” per se, I certainly fueled it as far as the derailing goes.

Now, back on topic. You say you have no reason to disbelieve them, and then state that they haven’t made up stories before. However, you are forgetting that they may truly have heard it, but the noises were false. It could very well be a psychological occurence less of a “paranormal” one. I am very hesitant to concede that any ghosts exist (especially that of a dog). I very much encourage you to organize a blessing of the house. This seems like the most prudent action to take at this time, rather than assuming what it could be.
 
I feel I must apologize. Though I didn’t “start the fire” per se, I certainly fueled it as far as the derailing goes.

Now, back on topic. You say you have no reason to disbelieve them, and then state that they haven’t made up stories before. However, you are forgetting that they may truly have heard it, but the noises were false. It could very well be a psychological occurence less of a “paranormal” one. I am very hesitant to concede that any ghosts exist (especially that of a dog). I very much encourage you to organize a blessing of the house. This seems like the most prudent action to take at this time, rather than assuming what it could be.
No need to apologize. I liked your posts. My parents no longer own the house, so it’s someone else’s problem now! 😃 Now, what do you mean by a psychological occurence? Do you mean it was in their heads? That would be hard to believe, as three people all heard the same things - i.e., dead dog sounds. Two of them on the same night independently of each other. I’ve just always felt torn between “oh, how wonderful, Jinx and Casey came back to say goodbye” 🙂 and “Holy ****! get out of the house!” :eek: It’s just fun to speculate on topics that no one has an answer for. :hmmm:
 
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