Dog Meat

[StillWondering]

…
Treating animals as commodities with total disregard for their comfort and lack thereof, with total disregard for their pain and suffering, because alleviating the pain and suffering or providing better conditions for the animal would minimize profits.

I would like to point out that there is a subtle but real difference between neglecting the comfort of the animals for the sake of profit as opposed to to *avoid *minimizing profits. When one does it for the sake or profit, money is their ruler. When one does it to have a greater profit, there may be just as well as unjust reasons. Unjust could be for the lust of profits. Just could be the need to increase productivity for some long term gain and benefit.

There are vegan alternative lifestyles however they are not the only lifestyles. As a previous poster mentioned, if one speaks about “authentic needs” one should look at the big picture. Watching demoralizing or meaningless movies for unjust reasons is not an authentic need. Staying up late to respond to forum posters irrationally is not an authentic need. There are many things out there. For some, not eating meat is good for them. For others this is not the case.

Personally I am under the impression that my body actually does need meat. I would say it is an authentic need of mine. I do not eat large quantities because I need to spend time eating other foods.

I would like to sum up some of the points made here.

1. It is not immoral to eat meat and slay animals for this purpose.
2. Cruelty is immoral whether it is to animals or anything else. The issue is cruelty not animal meat.
3. The Church does not teach that we are required to be vegans or vegetarians.
4. The Church is against New Age theology, some of which can be found in certain promoters of vegan diet and living styles.
5. There are just ways to slay an animal for consumption.
6. The type of animal is not important, however, each type will need its own method due to differences of anatomy and conditions.
7. The original question by the OP were already answered immediately in the first response as well as elaborated in the following responses.

I would encourage the poster to continue his crusade to find uncruel methods of providing food for humanity. I would also encourage the poster to be distinct in his mind what are and are not immoral so that he can be steadfast in his quest without succumbing to the secular views of reality. There is only the reality that God created. The sufferings of this world is due to man’s fallenness bringing sin to this world.

 

[4elise]

No, I didn’t just walk in. I was wanting it to be clear that this was some sort of vegetarian agenda and not a question of legitimate Catholic moral teaching. The Church has never taught a religion of vegetarianism. I will follow the word of God delivered to the first leader of the Church Peter in regards to meat. I will take, eat and not call it sinful.

So, in keeping with this thread, the Catholic Church teaches, “it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing” (CCC #2417). So, while vegetarianism is allowed, it is nothing special in and of itself.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that to eat meat is something that is against the teaching of the Church. The Church does not say it is special, you are right.

I do believe that some of us have come to chose vegetarian / vegan BECAUSE of our Catholic faith, so naturally we want to share why this makes sense in light of our faith - with others with whom we share our faith…

i.e. if a = b and b = c, then a = c - the transitive nature of some of these issues make sense to me, and I believe many others too. (ie if it is wrong to be cruel to dogs it is wrong to be cruel to turkeys - if it is wrong to eat dog it is wrong to eat pigs if we are supposed to care for the gift of creation than CAFOs are wrong)

Before I knew about these issues (only 5 years ago) I cooked, served, eat and enjoyed beef, pork, chicken, turkey, fish, dairy, eggs — BUT when I learned about factory farming, (and other issues) I began to investigate, ask questions, read - then - because I learned about (1) the treatment of animals (2) the impact on the environment (3) the distribution of resources (4) the impact on those who work in this field and their surrounding communities… and because of my Catholic faith - I had to begin to make changes -

I recently had a long conversation with a good friend about this - and she shared that it is difficult to hear this because she feels judged - I assured her that I am not judging anyone who doesn’t make this choice - I believe that there are several reasons people do not make this connection (1) they don’t know the facts of the issue (2) they don’t believe that as one person they can make a difference (3) they are unwilling to make any personal changes in their lives (4) they don’t care

So - when I said this she said she thinks I am judging her because she said that *by saying this I am saying that if only (1) she learned the facts if only (2) she thought her actions could make a difference if only (3) she were willing to make personal changes if only (4) she cared… then she would make the same choice.
*
I listened and apologized if anything I had said had been hurtful - she is my dear friend and I would never want to hurt her (or anyone here on CAF) in sharing why this choice resonates with my Faith - but I also can not deny that it does.

I am now trying to ‘hear’ what I am saying in light of this conversation - and trying to temper this ALWAYS remembering that 5 years ago I too might have been hurt if I thought someone were judging my food choice - Peace

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Yeah, you walked right into that one!!! There are plenty of healthier alternatives to meat in this modern day and age. Very few people in civilized society*** need ***to eat meat. Is a pause in order for us all to stop and contemplate our authentic needs?? (Swiped that phrase from SteveGC, thanks Steve!)

I do believe there was some boiling going on in the video–***you ***can watch it again for the details and report back to us… I think I’ve seen enough… **and remember, the Chinese are doing this because they believe eating dog meat from tortured animals improves one’s sexual prowess. There’s a Godly reason to torture and eat dogs–or any animals for that matter… another mythical reason to eat meat…/**QUOTE]

I think we can safely assume that the Chinese in this video are not Catholics or even Christians. If you want to go to China and confront them in their beliefs, please do so. I don’t know of any Catholics or protestant Christians who beleive that eating tortured meat does anything special for them.

As for being vegan, that is an acceptable choice. But it is just a choice. God has never told us, since the fall, that we were not to eat animals.

I suggest you look for video or descriptions of how a kosher slaughterhouse operates. Yes, the animals are still killed, but none are tortured.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I’m not sure there’s anything inherently wrong about eating dogs or cats. I wouldn’t want to though, and I wouldn’t want to eat anything that was processed cruelly- as these dogs seem to be).

I wonder if this organization that posted the video feels as strongly about protecting the many babies that are aborted in china as they do about protecting the dogs.

Excellent point!

 

[Marfran]

I’m not sure there’s anything inherently wrong about eating dogs or cats. I wouldn’t want to though, and I wouldn’t want to eat anything that was processed cruelly- as these dogs seem to be).

I wonder if this organization that posted the video feels as strongly about protecting the many babies that are aborted in china as they do about protecting the dogs.

The video is from COK, a nonprofit animal advocacy organization based in Washington, D.C. Working to end animal abuse since 1995, COK focuses on cruelty to animals in agriculture.

I think this is kind of an odd comment as this organization has its specific focus, as do all organizations.

I was on a Wal-Mart thread a while back where we did bring up the abortion issue as it is connected to all the Chinese products carried by Walmart. Many Catholics on that thread refused to stop shopping at Walmart, and refused to stop purchasing cheap products in the stores from China, because it was more important to them to get their products “cheap,” than to care about how their purchases affected the lives of other human beings.

 

[Marfran]

I think we can safely assume that the Chinese in this video are not Catholics or even Christians. If you want to go to China and confront them in their beliefs, please do so. I don’t know of any Catholics or protestant Christians who beleive that eating tortured meat does anything special for them.

So we, as Catholics, should only pay attention to what other Catholics do, and if there is unjustice or cruelty in the world we should only focus on injustice and cruelty as committed by Catholics? So in your abortion comments above, we as Catholics, should only be concerned about Catholics who have abortions and everyone else can do as they please if they are not Catholic?

 

[Marfran]

As a previous poster mentioned, if one speaks about “authentic needs” one should look at the big picture. Watching demoralizing or meaningless movies for unjust reasons is not an authentic need…

Absolutely!!! This thread we are discussing “dog meat” but yes, there are a lot of other issues that also need our attention. And I am so with you on the “movies.” I am all for going back to the “Leave it to Beaver” era. There is so much violence on the screen and it has a negative impact on our society as a whole, creating an atmosphere in “real life” that encourages disrespect to life.

 

[Marfran]

I will follow the word of God delivered to the first leader of the Church Peter in regards to meat. I will take, eat and not call it sinful.

So, in keeping with this thread, the Catholic Church teaches, “it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing” (CCC #2417). So, while vegetarianism is allowed, it is nothing special in and of itself.

In Peter’s time there was no industrialized factory farming, none, nada. TODAY there are ethical concerns in how our “food animals” are raised and slaughtered, and the abuses that they suffer were nonexistent in Peter’s time. Meat eaten in the time of Peter was infrequent, and not a daily occurrence. I do believe that gluttony is sinful. (The average American eats 50% more protein than he needs in the form of animal products.) So it is legitimate to use animals for food, but we must also consider their suffering, our “authentic needs,” and the gluttony which has become typical of our society.

The act of eating meat may not be sinful (in and of itself), but disregarding an animal’s suffering and promoting that suffering by irresponsible purchase (not learning the facts about the meat you buy, how it was raised, etc.), or overconsuming it–eating 50% more than you need–must surely be.

 

[Tamsulosin]

When you look at the piece of meat on the plate,maybe we should make a mental picture of the animal it came from, looking at us with scared eyes,as it is being slaughtered. Then we probably would not eat that much meat.(rare, bloody)
The problem is to make sure we get the necessary amount of protein form other sources,so us not to hinder our health.Animal meat has good protein but a lot of cholesterol. Plant protein does not, so it is better.
Eating meat is very embedded in our culture, but little by little, well informed people start making the transition.
I do not know if it is against the scriptures or not,but my experience of many years having pets is that animals seem to have feelings, and seem to know when they are doing something wrong(my dog knows) which are a telltale of a rudimentary soul at least.
It is confusing to me , though, because nature is based on the food chain, of some species eating the others. What are we to do?
We know that Christ ate fish, so it should be fine to do so.Maybe fish is a cold blooded animal and simpler creature.
I must admit that my family still eats chicken and turkey, besides fish.
Practically never red meat or pork.So we are still meat eaters, but working on becoming vegetarians.
I guess each one must follow his or her conscience.I personally will stride harder to nurture my body without making other living beings suffer for my sake.

 

[Marfran]

I don’t know of any Catholics or protestant Christians who beleive that eating tortured meat does anything special for them.

No, but there are a lot of Catholics or protestant Christians who believe meat does something special for them, that it is necessary to their diet, and this is not true. Meat is not a natural component of the human diet, it is an adaptive food choice. For at cat, meat is natural to the diet and a cat is designed to eat meat. Humans are designed to eat and digest carbohydrates, and are naturally primarily frugivorous. Humans are classified as omnivores because they DO eat meat, but physiologically they are NOT designed to do so, as evidenced by the lack of claws, teeth, digestive enzymes, intestinal length etc. A natural omnivore is a carnivore that has evolved to also eat plant material and possesses all of the **physical attributes ** of a carnivore, e.g., a bear or a raccoon. Humans utilized the eating of meat to survive in harsh climates after observing the behavior of carnivorous animals, and developing weaponry to compensate for the humans lack of innate bodily weaponry (claws, sharp teeth, speed, agility, etc.).

So in our civilized society why are we still eating meat? This practice is not even occassional anymore, it has evolved beyond being a survival strategy, beyond surviving times of famine…

So Catholics and others eat meat today because it has become such an ingrained tradition, and we have lost sight of the original purpose for eating meat. We think it does something “special” for us, but that can be refuted by current science and the existance of humans who live and thrive without eating it.

So if it is not an authentic need why are we so clenched in this practice that we refuse to address the CURRENT concerns of how it is produced TODAY, refuse to give God’s animals a “break,” refuse to work to alleviate the ugliness of what has become of this “meat” industry???

Torturing God’s animals is wrong. Torturing dogs and killing them for meat to enhance one’s sexual prowess is wrong, no matter the culture. Subjecting agri-animals to industrialized abuse is also wrong. Having them live on cement (was not an issue in Peter’s time), preventing them from seeing daylight, raising them without grass under their feet–is an abomination to God, to the beauty of His creation. One can argue that we can legitimately use “animals” but there is great responsibility in that–and that is exactly what MODERN man is neglecting. It is against God and the Church to cause animals to suffer–and in “using” them TODAY we are ignoring that tenet.

I think that we need to examine why we are eating meat TODAY, and what we are doing wrong, and what needs to be changed, improved or halted in animal agribusiness, so that we are living up to ALL Christian principles inherent in this practice.

 

[Marfran]

Eating meat is very embedded in our culture, but little by little, well informed people start making the transition.

Exactly. And I am so frustrated when I see all these ads on TV for new drugs to combat all the ills associated with meat/dairy/egg consumption. Changing one’s diet is more than about alleviating the animal suffering. We suffer too with our obesity, heart disease, cancer, etc. I recommend reading ***The China Study *** for anyone who wants to understand the link between animal products and these diseases.

We could also feed more people by giving crops directly to the people instead of feeding “meat” animals with that food.

If we look closely at how we treat animals today and begin to make changes, it will be a win-win situation for us all. I don’t think anyone really profits from animal abuse in the long run. And we have so much to lose. Including our dignity.

 

[Marfran]

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that to eat meat is something that is against the teaching of the Church. The Church does not say it is special, you are right.

I do believe that some of us have come to chose vegetarian / vegan BECAUSE of our Catholic faith, so naturally we want to share why this makes sense in light of our faith - with others with whom we share our faith…

i.e. if a = b and b = c, then a = c - the transitive nature of some of these issues make sense to me, and I believe many others too. (ie if it is wrong to be cruel to dogs it is wrong to be cruel to turkeys - if it is wrong to eat dog it is wrong to eat pigs if we are supposed to care for the gift of creation than CAFOs are wrong)

Before I knew about these issues (only 5 years ago) I cooked, served, eat and enjoyed beef, pork, chicken, turkey, fish, dairy, eggs — BUT when I learned about factory farming, (and other issues) I began to investigate, ask questions, read - then - because I learned about (1) the treatment of animals (2) the impact on the environment (3) the distribution of resources (4) the impact on those who work in this field and their surrounding communities… and because of my Catholic faith - I had to begin to make changes -

I recently had a long conversation with a good friend about this - and she shared that it is difficult to hear this because she feels judged - I assured her that I am not judging anyone who doesn’t make this choice - I believe that there are several reasons people do not make this connection (1) they don’t know the facts of the issue (2) they don’t believe that as one person they can make a difference (3) they are unwilling to make any personal changes in their lives (4) they don’t care

So - when I said this she said she thinks I am judging her because she said that by saying this I am saying that if only (1) she learned the facts if only (2) she thought her actions could make a difference if only (3) she were willing to make personal changes if only (4) she cared… then she would make the same choice.

I listened and apologized if anything I had said had been hurtful - she is my dear friend and I would never want to hurt her (or anyone here on CAF) in sharing why this choice resonates with my Faith - but I also can not deny that it does.

I am now trying to ‘hear’ what I am saying in light of this conversation - and trying to temper this ALWAYS remembering that 5 years ago I too might have been hurt if I thought someone were judging my food choice - Peace

Great post!!!

 

[distracted]

Marfran;5713660:

Yeah, you walked right into that one!!! There are plenty of healthier alternatives to meat in this modern day and age. Very few people in civilized society*** need ***

to eat meat. red.

almost no living creature is vegan except (unenlightened) humans…

even ants prefer animal protein, it seems. One time i dropped some scramb eggs on the floor, didn’t want to pick it up right away cause needed my hands to be clean… i had a prob with ants at that time… and they took to it like pigs to a trough…

you see birds eating road kill all the time…

and then there’s the mosquito… we all know how it likes human blood…

human beings, obviously, are far more complex than insects and other creatures… they need meat more than any of them…

Did you know women who don’t eat meat go through menopause earlier?

and again, vegans don’t live very long… most only live into their 50s… and even then they probably wouldn’t live that long if their parents had not fed them meat when young (Linda McCartney, etc…)

 

[distracted]

Great post!!!

its always great when someone agrees with us…

but someone agreeing doesn’t make something true…

vegetarianism is unhealthy for humans…

the evidence is there…

 

[Mrs_Sally]

When you look at the piece of meat on the plate,maybe we should make a mental picture of the animal it came from, looking at us with scared eyes,as it is being slaughtered. Then we probably would not eat that much meat.(rare, bloody)
The problem is to make sure we get the necessary amount of protein form other sources,so us not to hinder our health.Animal meat has good protein but a lot of cholesterol. Plant protein does not, so it is better.
Eating meat is very embedded in our culture, but little by little, well informed people start making the transition.
I do not know if it is against the scriptures or not,but my experience of many years having pets is that animals seem to have feelings, and seem to know when they are doing something wrong(my dog knows) which are a telltale of a rudimentary soul at least.
It is confusing to me , though, because nature is based on the food chain, of some species eating the others. What are we to do?
We know that Christ ate fish, so it should be fine to do so.Maybe fish is a cold blooded animal and simpler creature.
I must admit that my family still eats chicken and turkey, besides fish.
Practically never red meat or pork.So we are still meat eaters, but working on becoming vegetarians.
I guess each one must follow his or her conscience.I personally will stride harder to nurture my body without making other living beings suffer for my sake.

The Church teaches that animals have a material body and the spirit that makes them alive (as do plants) --as opposed to dirt, which is just matter. But animals do not have immortal souls. Here’s a link to the EWTN website with a discussion of this. It also references certain sections of the CCC.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/pets_in_heaven.htm

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Moral questions about how animals are raised and slaughtered aside, I believe the type of animals we eat are for the most part cultural. Hence, here in the west, we recoil in horror at the thought of eating dogs or cats, while a Hindu would starve before killing and eating the cows that roam the streets of India.

I have a question for vegans: I’ve seen it argued that humans aren’t meant to consume animals and their products (eggs and dairy). However, don’t we require a certain vitamin, one of the “Bs”, I believe, but I’m not sure which one, that is only found in animal sources, and vegans must take supplements for this? Is it that we don’t require an animal diet now, now that we have supplements, so even though in the past we did, the argument is that it is currently healthier and more ethical to be vegan, (even though taking supplements isn’t “natural”).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Roman_Army]

In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with “factory farming” so long as the animals are not physically mistreated. Certainly organic farming techniques are preferable, though it is not cost efficient. In regards to how they’re killed, they ought to be killed as swiftly and painlessly as possible without seeing or knowing what’s coming to them. That’s why the French invented the guillotine, which unfortunately was also used for human political rivals in the French revolution.

 

[Marfran]

The Church teaches that animals have a material body and the spirit that makes them alive (as do plants) --as opposed to dirt, which is just matter. But animals do not have immortal souls. Here’s a link to the EWTN website with a discussion of this. It also references certain sections of the CCC.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/pets_in_heaven.htm

Yes, animals have mortal souls and humans have immortal souls, and man is held responsible for his actions in a way that animals are not.. Because animals have mortal souls does not give us license to abuse them, and since they only have this life here on Earth we should be kind and merciful to them in this, their one life. Made in the image of God, we are called to show compassion–a quality that animals themselves are not capable of and sets us apart from them…

 

[Marfran]

I have a question for vegans: I’ve seen it argued that humans aren’t meant to consume animals and their products (eggs and dairy). However, don’t we require a certain vitamin, one of the “Bs”, I believe, but I’m not sure which one, that is only found in animal sources, and vegans must take supplements for this? Is it that we don’t require an animal diet now, now that we have supplements, so even though in the past we did, the argument is that it is currently healthier and more ethical to be vegan, (even though taking supplements isn’t “natural”).

The vitamin is B12 (an airborn bacteria) and it is found in the soil and the intestines and by-products of animals who eat plant matter. All your questions are answered in this book, a good nutritional resource for new vegans, or anyone considering taking the plunge. Everything you need to know about nutrition, written by two registered dietitians. ***Becoming Vegan ***by Brenda Davis tiny.cc/E4RY3

An excerpt from* Becoming Vegan *by Brenda Davis R.D. & Vesanto Melina, M.S., R.D.:

**An odd thing about B12 is that if we weren’t such clean-living critters, We’d have more B12 sources because many more bacteria would contribute to our supply. Cobalamin is created by one-celled organisms: bacteria and fungi. These microscopic organisms are all over the place–in earth, wind, rainwater, and oceans. In centuries past when foods such as sauerkraut or tempeh were fermented, airborne bacteria would drift in and enter the fermentation process, making these foods potential sources of vitamin B12.

When we eat carrots that are well-cleaned (no bits of dirt), bottled or chlorinated water (few bacteria), and foods that have been fermented in the most hygienic conditions (scrupulously clean stainless steel vats, limited types of one-celled organisms, and quick production), we can’t count on these foods and beverages to supply us with B12. And even when our carrots do have bits of dirt on them, soils that have been treated with pesticides and herbicides have less B12 producing bacteria than organic soils.

While our B12 sources from soil, air, water, and fermented foods have declined, we now have the advantage of B12 fortified foods… **

 

[Marfran]

**In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with “factory farming” so long as the animals are not physically mistreated. **Certainly organic farming techniques are preferable, though it is not cost efficient. In regards to how they’re killed, they ought to be killed as swiftly and painlessly as possible without seeing or knowing what’s coming to them. That’s why the French invented the guillotine, which unfortunately was also used for human political rivals in the French revolution.

But that is ***exactly ***what “factory farming” accomplishes, in addition to its ***other ***accomplishments (mass producing food, turning a big profit, etc.)

The frequency of E.coli outbreaks is ALL related to factory farming techniques. Human beings, in addition to animals pay a hefty price for factory farming.

In case you are wondering the increase in E.coli outbreaks is due to the fact that cows are fed corn which is not a natural part of their diet. This fattens them up quicker, they go to slaughter quicker, company turns a profit quicker, etc. Cows have difficulty digesting corn and their intestines must produce larger volumes of bacteria to handle this.

Check out the documentary film*** Food, Inc.*** for details on this. Or check out one of Michael Pollan’s books.

To combat E.coli outbreaks McDonald’s, the largest purchaser of ground beef, puts a certain chemical in the corn filler that they add to their beef. None of this was going on in Biblical times–that’s why I say we have issues inherent in TODAY’s food and food production, that need to be addressed and challeged. The “meat” of today is NOT the meat of “yesteryear”. And if factory farming methods are responsible for human death and illness do we not have an obligation to challenge it?