Dog Meat

[o_mlly]

If you watch the video it’s pretty brutal. Americans and other Westerners will be horrified by how these dogs are treated, but, as you say, think nothing of eating a cheeseburger. Should there be a cultural tolerance for animal abuse??? Americans have industrialized animal abuse through factory farming–and this is OK with everyone–as long as we don’t SEE what’s going on…

I take it you’ve never visited a cattle slaughtering house. Many who do become instant, albeit temporary, vegitarians.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[Ione]

Hogwash. If you follow that train of logic, you could hardly shop anywhere at all and not support abortion. Does the bricklayer’s union of the guys who built the building you shop in support the Democratic party (Pro-abortion). Don’t know? Well, you’d better check it out. How about the suppliers of the wax that’s used on the floors where you shop?

This sort of thing can be taken to the ridiculous extreme, but “If you are gonig to follow the bible, then follow it. It’s not about if you are inconvenienced in life”, right? You NEED to do all of this sort of ridiculous research, following lone’s logic.

Hmmm…if the vegan can stop to make sure they are using no animal products to help the animals I can’t see why a Catholic wouldn’t take the time to save an unborn child (if of course that unborn child is of any significance to you). Well, maybe they’re just not worth the time and effort. It’s easier to go on a forum and argue that abortion issues are more important than animal issues and yet take no action to support it. IF it is important, then you should be taking the time to look into these things even if it is time consuming and an inconvience to you rather than just running your mouth on a forum. You are on a Catholic forum pushing pro life. How difficult is that!!! No inconvience or sacrifice there. Good for you! Don’t worry about that unborn baby. You go shop that Walmart!

 

[Ione]

More people ***do not ***do this. In today’s society most people are removed from the slaughter and butchering of their meat. And in the words of Paul McCartney “If slaughterhouses had glass walls we would all be vegetarians.”

I think that if you want to eat meat, and are willing to verbally argue about “your right” to eat it, then you should not be a ***** about killing and butchering it yourself. It is the coward who talks about his right to eat a dead animal, but will not kill it and butcher it.

And yes, the people who take pleasure in hunting etc. have psychological issues. (And what about all the workers in factory farms and slaughterhouses? Can they have normal relationships with *people *when they are committing violence and killing all day? The biggest warning sign in children for future violence to humans, is children hurting or killing animals. What about adults who do this for a living?) Hemmingway once said that the reason he hunted was because he had to take his aggressions out on something, and it was better to take it out on animals than people (paraphrasing there).

And how about the dogs being tortured in this video? Meat eaten from one of these dogs is supposed to improve one’s sexual prowess. Why don’t the guys who want to improve their virility beat and kill the dogs themselves??

Marfran,
I’m on your side. I was speaking in reference to the rancher (factory farming) that says he has to basically raise the meat for all and takes pride in doing it. That he/she somehow has to feed the world. We wouldn’t be able to survive without him/her. They make it like it is some wonderful thing to be able to nurture and raise an animal and then kill it so people can eat. Unfortunately, I’m not going for it. It’s about money, not helping the world and people. On the contrary, they are hurting the environment, people’s health and the animals. I don’t think there should be any pride taken for doing that. :nope:

 

[Ione]

not to mention this:

if he were stranded on some deserted island and had been starving for - say - 10 days and a wild hog showed itself and he had a knife…

need i say more??

First off, I’m a she not a he. And no, I would starve. I rescue pigs. Farm pigs. If I was in the position of the people from say the survivor movie, would I starve or eat other humans, I would starve. I don’t go wishy washy and change my views so it can benefit me. I’m fully ok with passing to the other side. I don’t fear it. And if God were to put me in the situation where I would starve, then I would starve. Although I don’t believe God would do that.

 

[Ione]

“Consider two spheres of concern that dominate vast swaths of our culture today: food and health. The Nazis took food very, very seriously. Hitler claimed to be a dedicated vegetarian. Indeed, he could talk for hours about the advantages of a meatless diet and the imperative to eat whole grains. Himmler… Hess, Bormann, and – maybe – Goebbels were vegetarians or health food fetishists… Hitler believed that man had mistakenly acquired the habit of eating meat out of desperation during the Ice Age and that vegetarianism was the more authentic human practice. Indeed, he often sounded like an early spokesperson for the raw food movement, which is becoming ever more fashionable. [He said: ] ‘The fly feeds on fresh leaves, the frog swallows the fly as it is and the stork eats the living frog. Nature thus teaches us that a rational ***diet should be based on eating things in their raw state.’” – From the book ***Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg

Hmmm… doesn’t eating raw meat (like animals do) usually cause humans to get sick? Oh, that’s right Hitler said it was unnatural to eat meat… hmm…

So we are to imitate the animals by eating raw food - but not imitate them in eating meat… as ALL animals and even many insects do…
That Hitler… No wonder he operated on feelings rather than intellect… I don’t think he had much to offer of the latter.

***‘The fly feeds on fresh leaves, the frog swallows the fly as it is and the stork eats the living frog. Nature thus teaches us ***’

---

That We Should Eat Meat*** - like all the other animals do…:doh2:

And Jeffrey Dahmer was a carnivore.

 

[Ione]

Did you know that in this country alone 50 million children have been slaughtered since 1973?

The topic is dogs, not children. You seem to keep comparing the two. Why? If they are not equal creations why do you continue to compare them?

 

[Marfran]

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is cruelty to a child, a dog or to a cow.

If you mean the word “cruelty” has the same meaning in all three cases, then the word does contain the same meaning in all three case. However, one of those three means a lot more to God.

Violence is violence, regardless of the victim or the recipient of the violence. Cruelty is wrong because it is cruelty. Is it *more cruel * or *more violent *to stab a child or a person in a wheel chair than it is to stab an able bodied man??? All three victims suffer because of your violence to them. If you are cruel to, or inflict violence to a non-human living being you are still partaking in an injurious act that inflicts pain and suffering. One can not ***justify ***injurious violence by attaching different values to the victims.

 

[Ione]

what a lovely dance around the issue…

i figured i woiuldn’t get an answer…

Originally Posted by distracted
so even dogs should be forced to become vegan??

against their very nature… just like humans…

hmmmm…

I did answer it for you. You are comparing animals to humans. From your perspective (or so it seems) humans and animals are not comparable. So because an animal eats meat it means a human should. If you are going with this logic then you would have to say animals are equal to humans. Therefore, if the animal does it so should the human and if the human does it so should the animal. Therefore, the human has rights so then does the animal. And this is actually more science based and isn’t really in reference to the bible which you claim to follow (yes???) Animals are animals, humans are humans, nature is nature, science is science, the bible is the bible.

 

[Ione]

…

its horrible to kill animals but killing Jewish humans by the millions (and Catholics too and others) is acceptable… :banghead:

Sorry I didn’t see a post that said it was ok to kill the Jewish people and the Catholics. Where was that?

 

[Marfran]

If you mean the word “cruelty” has the same meaning in all three cases, then the word does contain the same meaning in all three case. However, one of those three means a lot more to God.

I do like how so many speak on behalf of God. Hopefully we** will** see God one day and all will be revealed.

I would agree with you on that. God is the Creator of the Earth and everything in it. I will respect all of His creation, and treat it lovingly, and care for it all as a steward. I will not attempt to decifer what God cares more for, and in what quantities, and I would not use an interpretation of what *I think that God thinks *as justification to commit violence to the “lesser” works of God. I can live peaceably within the world without bringing harm to it, and will purposefully avoid any acts of cruelty to other living beings, including other humans *and *non-human life.

 

[CGDouglas]

Sorry I didn’t see a post that said it was ok to kill the Jewish people and the Catholics. Where was that?

He’s probably making reference to Hitler being a vegetarian, or possibly being:
Adolf Hitler:

The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks’ mutton with them. I’m a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat. (1)

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**(1) **Hitler, Adolph; Hugh Trevor-Roper (trans.) (2000). Hitler’s Table Talk: 1941-1944. Enigma Books. ISBN 1-929631-05-7.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[Marfran]

Hmmm…if the vegan can stop to make sure they are using no animal products to help the animals I can’t see why a Catholic wouldn’t take the time to save an unborn child (if of course that unborn child is of any significance to you). Well, maybe they’re just not worth the time and effort. It’s easier to go on a forum and argue that abortion issues are more important than animal issues and yet take no action to support it. IF it is important, then you should be taking the time to look into these things even if it is time consuming and an inconvience to you rather than just running your mouth on a forum. You are on a Catholic forum pushing pro life. How difficult is that!!! No inconvience or sacrifice there. Good for you! Don’t worry about that unborn baby. You go shop that Walmart!

I absolutely agree. It is *counter cultural *for someone to choose not to support animal abuse, and to purposefully choose products than do not contain ingredients from the “animal” industies. It is inconvenient and does take effort. If you walk into a “regular” grocery store and start reading labels you will soon discover that many items that appear to be vegetarian, are in fact not. It takes great personal effort, changing one’s way of cooking and shopping, and taking some time to learn. In other words, it requires personal change.

Ironically (or not so ironically), you can also became aware of how the products that you purchase support abortion causes. This also requires effort and personal change. Participating on many threads here, I have encountered many people who spout off about the wrong of abortion, yet make no ***personal sacrifice ***to combat this sin.

For example, there were some issues a while back about the Girl Scout organization having a relationship with the Planned Parenthood Assn. who supports abortion. In my parish, everyone ignored this, and kept on buying the cookies.

 

[Marfran]

"Saint Francis loved all God’s creatures and showed unselfish love to birds, beasts, and all created things. He felt a spiritual communion with all facets of nature, no matter how small or outwardly insignificant. Existing in his state of universal love and understanding, he felt such tender concern for all God’s creatures that he freed rabbits caught in traps, paid to free sheep being led to slaughter, and threw fish back into the water.

Saint Francis’ concepts of Franciscan Teachings included his vision of the Lord being shared in some measure amongst all created things. He sensed that all nature “was a vast brotherhood and he felt himself borne upon the stream of universal life; and in all this life he saw a kinship with the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ.” He felt that careless destruction of nature was sacrilegious and because of his beliefs in merciful compassion…"

you can read the rest of the entry on St. Francis in the book ***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***by Dr. Holly Roberts (Catholic) tiny.cc/WDsUE

**Does anyone want to challenge and take St. Francis on? **

 

[Newbie2]

Saint Francis loved all God’s creatures and showed unselfish love to birds, beasts, and all created things. He felt a spiritual communion with all facets of nature, no matter how small or outwardly insignificant. Existing in his state of universal love and understanding, he felt such tender concern for all God’s creatures that he freed rabbits caught in traps, paid to free sheep being led to slaughter, and threw fish back into the water.

Saint Francis’ concepts of Franciscan Teachings included his vision of the Lord being shared in some measure amongst all created things. He sensed that all nature “was a vast brotherhood and he felt himself borne upon the stream of universal life; and in all this life he saw a kinship with the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ.” He felt that careless destruction of nature was sacrilegious and because of his beliefs in merciful compassion…

you can read the rest of the entry on St. Francis in the book ***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***by Dr. Holly Roberts (Catholic)

**Does anyone want to challenge and take St. Francis on? **

Jesus ate fish. Care to take Jesus on?

 

[CGDouglas]

Saint Francis loved all God’s creatures and showed unselfish love to birds, beasts, and all created things. He felt a spiritual communion with all facets of nature, no matter how small or outwardly insignificant. Existing in his state of universal love and understanding, he felt such tender concern for all God’s creatures that he freed rabbits caught in traps, paid to free sheep being led to slaughter, and threw fish back into the water.

Saint Francis’ concepts of Franciscan Teachings included his vision of the Lord being shared in some measure amongst all created things. He sensed that all nature “was a vast brotherhood and he felt himself borne upon the stream of universal life; and in all this life he saw a kinship with the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ.” He felt that careless destruction of nature was sacrilegious and because of his beliefs in merciful compassion…

you can read the rest of the entry on St. Francis in the book ***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***by Dr. Holly Roberts (Catholic)

**Does anyone want to challenge and take St. Francis on? **

Yet we don’t know if he ate meat or not, pro-vegetarian sites seem to advocate such, ‘New Advent’ seems silent.

[Update] EWTN has this:

EWTN:

Father Iammarrone: Whoever says this, has read nothing of St. Francis’ life. In early biographies one reads that St. Francis said that if Christmas was on a Friday, the friars should be given a double ration of meat, and animals a double ration of hay, out of love for the Lord, who was born for us.(1)

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(1)THEOLOGIAN LUIGI IAMMARRONE ON ST. FRANCIS AND ECOLOGY

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[severus68]

First off, I’m a she not a he. And no, I would starve. I rescue pigs. Farm pigs. If I was in the position of the people from say the survivor movie, would I starve or eat other humans, I would starve. I don’t go wishy washy and change my views so it can benefit me. I’m fully ok with passing to the other side. I don’t fear it. And if God were to put me in the situation where I would starve, then I would starve. Although I don’t believe God would do that.

Good posts lone.

 

[Marfran]

Jesus ate fish. Care to take Jesus on?

Jesus is the ultimate example. The **Lamb **of God. Sacrificed, brutalized, tortured, suffered, for our sins. In death and suffering Jesus is referred to as a lamb, an innocent creature that suffers because of us. Why is the image of the lamb chosen for this??? Why not a human being???

Again, I suggest that you read Dominion by Matthew Scully, Or ***Animal Gospel ***by Andrew Linzey. I am currently reading ***The School of Compassion: A Roman Catholic Theology of Animals ***by Dr. Deborah Jones.

Dominion by Matthew Scully tiny.cc/8o2Oo

***School of Compassion ***by Deborah Jones tiny.cc/S0xYr

***Animal Gospel ***by Rev Andrew Linzey tiny.cc/WugTh

***Catholic Concern for Animals ***tiny.cc/F3AGP

 

[PJM]

=4elise;5709270](I love your name!)

It was when I learned where 95% of the meat, and dairy comes from (CAFO) that about 3 years ago I had to make a change — another poster said something about - if we know that there is suffering of the animals, and we ignore it that might be a moral sin? What do you think?

This video is also a bit graphic - but concerns the way animals ARE raised for food in the US
goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp

Gen. Ch. 1: 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.”

 

[CGDouglas]

Jesus is the ultimate example. The **Lamb **of God. Sacrificed, brutalized, tortured, suffered, for our sins. In death and suffering Jesus is referred to as a lamb, an innocent creature that suffers because of us. Why is the image of the lamb chosen for this??? Why not a human being???

Again, I suggest that you read Dominion by Matthew Scully, Or ***Animal Gospel ***by Andrew Linzey. I am currently reading ***The School of Compassion: A Roman Catholic Theology of Animals ***by Dr. Deborah Jones.

Dominion by Matthew Scully tiny.cc/8o2Oo

***School of Compassion ***by Deborah Jones tiny.cc/S0xYr

***Animal Gospel ***by Rev Andrew Linzey tiny.cc/WugTh

***Catholic Concern for Animals ***tiny.cc/F3AGP

This still does not change the fact that Christ himself ate meat.

The Lamb is also a fulfillment of the Jewish sacrifices, in which God wanted the sacrifice of animals, even in Egypt to place the blood upon the doorposts. The Passover foreshadows Christ.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[Marfran]

Yet we don’t know if he ate meat or not, pro-vegetarian sites seem to advocate such, ‘New Advent’ seems silent.

"Saint Francis was a man who felt love and compassion for all creation. He was definitely a vegetarian for at least a portion of his life. Uncertainty exists, however, as to whether or not he was a vegetarian during his entire life. This was because Saint Francis was trying to uphold several religious and humanitarian principles simultaneously and sometimes had to compromise if these principles conflicted.

One of the principles was that his monks and he must not own any possessions. This meant that their very survival depended upon food for which they begged. The other principle was that because he, personally, saw God in every being, he sought never to harm or take life from any being. As a compromise, although he preferred his monks to be vegetarian, he permitted them to accept any foods offered them, even if such foods were non-vegetarian."

from ***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***by Dr. Holly Roberts

Most of us vegetarians and vegans have not been vegetarian or vegan for our entire lives. It is a choice that we are called to, it is a choice that often takes time to realize. Arguing whether or not St. Francis was a vegetarian for his entire life has no bearing on the weight of understanding this tenet, and the morality of eschewing meat.