M
Marfran
Guest
Totally agree with you. We must strive to eliminate all violence and cruelty–every act of cruel violence is against God, regardless of the recipient.
- Status
N
Newbie2
Guest
That’s a much different thing from questioning (implicitly) that Jesus ever ate meat.Ok… if we then take this literally -
Jesus eat fish ----therefore it is not wrong to eat fish if they are caught in small nets off boats with no motors,
Jesus ate lamb —
------ I believe one of the differences that some have tried to point to is that in 2009 large scale factory farming produces meat from animals, that like the dogs in the OP, which are not living lives that honor their Creator before they are cruelly killed - especially when WE can live well without animal protein in our diet.
Newbie2;5740151:
No, but the fact is He did.
I don’t know whether Christ ate meat and fish, the broiled fish could well have been a piece of bread. In Luke, the first food Christ ate was bread.
I don’t quite understand why you continue to resist the fact that Our Lord ate animal meat. Forget about the last supper for a moment…Jesus participated in Passover every year! You think he ever said, “No, sorry, I can’t eat the lamb. It was slaughtered cruelly by the practices proscribed by the Father”?
That is not the issue here. We are discussing cruelty to animals and the necessity of eating meat today.
You don’t think that our Lord’s example is relevant to our deciding to eat or not eat meat? BTW, Kosher slaughter practices are among the most cruel.
I do not eat .
Ever?
I used to when I was younger and did not know better. I am doing what I think best for myself, animals and this earth. I am not committing a sin in not eating meat.
True. And I am not committing one by eating meat.
The author of the OP was bringing his/her point of view about animals and how we treat them to the table. There is no way he/she or I can force you to our way of thinking.
That’s an understatement. LOL
The most adverse reactions I got when I became vegetarian was from Catholics. I was surprised. Why this vehemence?
The “preachiness” against meat-eating, I would guess. I have no problems with vegans choosing to be vegans. I have problems with vegans telling **me ** that **I **shouldn’t eat meat. My guess is others react the same.
You can leave the welfare of animals out of the equation and it still best today to go vegetarian. If you want to feed starving kids, grow plants for food, don’t raise animals for food. That is a fact.
A disputed fact. You cannot get fat-soluble vitamins from plants in adequate quantities.
that I seem to be walking around with - just feel the need to share this with other Catholics because it makes sense to us, so we think it will make sense to them too if we just explain it better.
Explain it better, judge less, and don’t preach.
S
severus68
Guest
That’s a much different thing from questioning (implicitly) that Jesus ever ate meat.
severus68;5740416:
Its a free world. I will dance and sing and preach if I want to, thank you. Why so testy? No one on this thread has claimed that the Church says it is a sin to eat meat and this4elise;5740479:
Explain it better, judge less, and don’t preach.
pertains to the subject matter of this thread. The matter of Christ having eaten meat is not dogma and I can wonder and ponder surely.
Giving one’s views is not preaching or you can be said to be doing the same.
To clarify, it was the last sentence in mpewton’s I ageed with and I do not eat.
P
pete_29
Guest
That’s a much different thing from questioning (implicitly) that Jesus ever ate meat.
severus68;5740416:
Follow your own advice !!!4elise;5740479:
Explain it better, judge less, and don’t preach.
P
pnewton
Guest
Let me also add that we need to be more careful how we quote if we are going to using little angry faces and excessive exclaimation points. Than was Newbi2’s post you should have quoted.Follow your own advice !!!
M
Marfran
Guest
OK–my biggest question** is **(I am **not **standing on a pulpit)–if treating the dogs in the video is cruel, if mistreating any species of animal (either intentionally or because you are a large corporation that produces meat and it is not econimical or cuts into profits to treat the animal well, or provide it a natural life of sunshine & pasture), how do you, the ***meat purchaser ***reconcile your wish or practice of eating meat (or purchasing it) with the participation of the mistreatment of the animals you eat, even if that mistreatment is not committed by your own hand???
A vegetarian or vegan just removes themselves from the loop. If you want to eat meat, but have issue with cruelty, how can you reconcile this?? Can you divorce yourself from the cruelty commited by others, by the big corporations??? Are you not part of the problem (as opposed to being part of the solution) by condoning its continuence through your purchases?
There ***are ***people who choose to eat meat, but choose not to buy “factory farmed” meat. I *personally, *would not even care to buy that–but I do know of people who feel that this is a better choice, and it does take them out of the loop of some of the cruel industrialization inherent in “factory farming” practices.
Again, I am not trying to arm wrestle anyone into thinking my way. I hear that a lot of people have objections to animal cruelty, and are disturbed to learn of some of the modern “farming” practices, so what can one do about that? If you find it objectionable, how can you reconcile your choice and desire to eat meat with what big industry is doing to the animals before they find their way to your table?
BTW: the dogs in the video are prurposefully mistreated because that makes their flesh more desirable for the eater. The cows, pigs, chickens, etc. in *our *culture are mistreated and suffer because they are viewed as commodities and not living things, and to treat them better would take a bite out of profits. Does this make a difference on how you view this topic?
A vegetarian or vegan just removes themselves from the loop. If you want to eat meat, but have issue with cruelty, how can you reconcile this?? Can you divorce yourself from the cruelty commited by others, by the big corporations??? Are you not part of the problem (as opposed to being part of the solution) by condoning its continuence through your purchases?
There ***are ***people who choose to eat meat, but choose not to buy “factory farmed” meat. I *personally, *would not even care to buy that–but I do know of people who feel that this is a better choice, and it does take them out of the loop of some of the cruel industrialization inherent in “factory farming” practices.
Again, I am not trying to arm wrestle anyone into thinking my way. I hear that a lot of people have objections to animal cruelty, and are disturbed to learn of some of the modern “farming” practices, so what can one do about that? If you find it objectionable, how can you reconcile your choice and desire to eat meat with what big industry is doing to the animals before they find their way to your table?
BTW: the dogs in the video are prurposefully mistreated because that makes their flesh more desirable for the eater. The cows, pigs, chickens, etc. in *our *culture are mistreated and suffer because they are viewed as commodities and not living things, and to treat them better would take a bite out of profits. Does this make a difference on how you view this topic?
N
Newbie2
Guest
Newbie2;5741535:
Forgive me if I gave the impression that I was singling anyone out on this forum as preachy. In my experience, there is not a very thick line between informing, attempting to convince and being preachy…and many vegans want to tell me why I’m wrong in eating meat.
How so? Where have I been preachy? I don’t care if people are vegans or not.Follow your own advice !!!
I was going to point that out, but thanks.
S
severus68
Guest
severus68;5741642:
Forgive me if I gave the impression that I was singling anyone out on this forum as preachy. In my experience, there is not a very thick line between informing, attempting to convince and being preachy…and many vegans want to tell me why I’m wrong in eating meat.
How so? Where have I been preachy? I don’t care if people are vegans or not.
I was going to point that out, but thanks.
No one is judging anyone here. We have no right to do so. I was just trying to say that if you say anyone on this thread is preaching by giving their views, then you can be said to be said to be preaching too.
As I said it is not a sin to question whether Christ ate meat or fish.
4
4elise
Guest
Explain it better, judge less, and don’t preach.
Ok Newbie - if you will allow me to explain please know this is not offered to be ‘preachy’
This is how I understand it… in the Readers Digest version: (I’m sure that there will be those who can clarify any errors I make
God created man and all creation.
God placed man as stewards of creation.
Before the flood man did not eat the flesh of animals.
After the flood God permitted man to eat the flesh of animals.
Animal sacrifice in the Old Testiment was a huge leap from what was done by the surrounding peoples who still sacrificed people to their gods.
Jesus too - to ensure that we would always understand that he was both truly man and truly God - felt hunger, ate, became tired, slept, and yes he ate lamb at Passover and fish even after his resurrection.
Jesus used bread and wine at the last supper to become for us His body and blood - He did not take the lamb and raise it saying eat this lamb - it is the bread which becomes the body of Christ our Pascal Sacrifice - replacing the need to sacrifice anything else living to God
Over the years many people have eaten foods which include animal protein.
In recent years the production of animal protein in developed countries has been - for the most part - driven by profits - this driving force has allowed animals to be mistreated, the environment to be damaged, individuals living and working in and around these CAFOs have become ill and suffered - including increases in spontaneous abortions as a result of the pollution…
At the same time, advances in the availability and ease of moving to a healthy plant based diet is also available; SO ---- given all these factors, it seems to me and many other to be a move that people of faith should, at the very least consider - reducing consumption of meat, poultry, fish, dairy, eggs and replacing this with a plant based diet.
When we made this move we didn’t do it all at once - making such a major change has it’s challenges, not the least of which living in a culture which is very meat/dairy centered.
So - hope that didn’t sound preachy - and if there is something specific you want explained - I’ll give it a try - and I know there are others here also willing to help.
Blessings,
W
Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Luke chapter 24 verse 40:
40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.
4
4elise
Guest
What I take from this that Jesus eat to demonstrate that after the resurrection He was alive in body and spirit, rather than an endorsement of broiled fish.
As has been discussed quite a bit is that TODAY animals that are part of the western diet are more likely to come from factory farms - so while it is likely that Jesus may have eaten lamb and fish - the lamb and fish were not from CAFOs -
W
Whitacre_Girl
Guest
I didn’t post that to make an arguement one way or another, just providing the scriptural reference to what Severus was asking.
4
4elise
Guest
Thank you… I offered my reading of that scripture, not implying that you had offered it to argue a point, just sharing what I understand from that post resurrection gathering.
How do you understand this scripture?
W
Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Pretty simply. Jesus took a fish, he ate it.
If you are asking me what I think about the consumption of meat, I think that when the bible talks over and over again about how we can eat meat, and even laid down what kinds of meat not to eat, that God is okay with us taking animals for food.
I also believe eating meat is acceptable in new testament standards as shown in Acts chapter 10:9-15
" 9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” "
I believe that even in mordern times eating meat is acceptable because of this section:
“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
I do feel that we are called to be good stewards and avoid eating anything that has been inhumanely slaughtered, but al I also admit that some people can’t afford the extra cost of organic food, or do not have the land to raise their own meat. There are health benefits to doing this as well. Animals who have been inhumanely treated usually taste foul, and the slaughter process and unclean living conditions usually lead to higher rates of foodborne illness. I was raised on meat that we had raised ourselves, and now I am in a financial situation where buying organic meat is too costly, and buying organic or overpriced health foods and supplements is unreasonable on my income. I have no moral problems eating meat from some factories, but I avoid places such as KFC who are known for using inhumane methods. Aside from that, most commercial meat tastes worse.
S
severus68
Guest
You need to read further on to Acts 11 on the meaning of that vision. It was not literal.
I am confused about your position. So do you think it is okay to eat animals that have been inhumanely raised and/or killed?
God never wanted a world where anything but grain, fruits and vegetables would be eaten if you will read Genesis on the creation of this world. Neither does God require us to eat meat organic or otherwise. If more people ate organic fruits and vegetables, the prices would go down and more would switch to organic farming. This is a matter of health. I buy organic produce although they cost more as I cant imagine feeding my child food which may cost her her health in the future. I do with less on other things.
W
Whitacre_Girl
Guest
This is not something I really care to argue about, so this will be my last post before I unsubscribe. Basically, I think this whole discussion is a stretch.
Jesus ate meat. Jesus ate fish. God commanded the killing of animals for sacrifices. God has expressed hundreds of times that eating meat is a perfectly natural and beneficial thing to do. He never once states anywhere in any sense that eating meat is not the best thing to do. Gos has even said himself that he gives man dominion over the animals. God himself even commanded people to eat animals for specific festivals.
One only needs to look at nature to see this theme replayed. Animals eat meat, we eat meat. Look at the way our mouth are even designed. We have teeth specifically for devouring flesh, and a digestive system designed specifically to break down animal proteins. There is no doubt in my mind that God gave us animals to eat responsibly.
Now, if people have a personal feeling that eating meat is wrong, that’s their deal. But I think slapping God’s name on it to make it holy and somehow tell others that eating meat isn’t “God’s Plan” is very irresponsible. There is NO biblical, traditional, the ecclesiastical statement to back that up. I agree that the treatment of animals on SOME meat farms is reprehensible, and I endevor not to support those places that I know do that. However, if a catholic wants to go full out vegan, that’s fine. Just don’t make it a “holy” kind of thing about it, or accuse others for not knowing scripture to back up your own claims. You don’t know the extent that other’s have studied.
Jesus ate meat. Jesus ate fish. God commanded the killing of animals for sacrifices. God has expressed hundreds of times that eating meat is a perfectly natural and beneficial thing to do. He never once states anywhere in any sense that eating meat is not the best thing to do. Gos has even said himself that he gives man dominion over the animals. God himself even commanded people to eat animals for specific festivals.
One only needs to look at nature to see this theme replayed. Animals eat meat, we eat meat. Look at the way our mouth are even designed. We have teeth specifically for devouring flesh, and a digestive system designed specifically to break down animal proteins. There is no doubt in my mind that God gave us animals to eat responsibly.
Now, if people have a personal feeling that eating meat is wrong, that’s their deal. But I think slapping God’s name on it to make it holy and somehow tell others that eating meat isn’t “God’s Plan” is very irresponsible. There is NO biblical, traditional, the ecclesiastical statement to back that up. I agree that the treatment of animals on SOME meat farms is reprehensible, and I endevor not to support those places that I know do that. However, if a catholic wants to go full out vegan, that’s fine. Just don’t make it a “holy” kind of thing about it, or accuse others for not knowing scripture to back up your own claims. You don’t know the extent that other’s have studied.
S
severus68
Guest
Please know that no one is judging or accusing anyone else. You did come on this thread and we thus assumed you were open to a discussion.
With repect our digestive system is not made for carnivores. Dominion in this case means stewardship, not a right to do what you like.
If we feel we are a good thing for ourselves and for God’s creation, we are entitled to believe it is a Christian thing to do.
Please do not leave this thread thinking you are being judged.
P
pnewton
Guest
It was symbolic. The literal aspect was also present as became apparent by not requiring Gentiles to follow Jewish Law in regards to dietary restraints (see Romans 1-12, Coucil of Jerusalem). This vision did what most prophecy does by taking the specific rule and expanding it. But make no mistake, “Take. Eat.” means that one can take and eat.
In light of the first century separation of Christianity from Judaism, I simply don’t see how Peter’s vision can be written off so easily.
S
severus68
Guest
I did not write off Peter’s vision easily or otherwise. How did you come up with the literal aspect and I “make the mistake”? The Acts were written by St Luke the “beloved Physician”. Chapters 10 to 15 deal with the inauguration of the Gentile Mission.
M
Marfran
Guest
The vision of Peter and the sheet ***is not ***a **literal **vision, and I am so surprised when people use this in defense of eating meat. I posted an in depth theological interpretation in another thread. This vision concerns the relationship between Gentiles & Jews. (That thread was erased. I will have to try to relocate the source and links again–unless someone else has it.)
BTW: **Everything that Jesus ate was organic. **Should we not be following that example???
The food we eat TODAY is raised, grown, and manufactured, in ways that are very different, and this difference creates ethical issues and concerns that did not exist in the time of Christ.*** It is those differences***, not the similarities, that require us to consider our food choices today.
Jesus Christ would have eaten (based on the period of history in which he lived) what is considered a Mediterranian diet. Lots of olives, olive oil, fruits, vegetables, nuts, wine, bread, and occassional fish, and more rarely meat. The diet of his historical period, however, would have differed from today’s modern Mediterranian diet. There is more dairy in today’s modern Mediteranian diet. The process of pasteurization was not available in Christ’s time. There are manufacturing processes that did not exist in the time of Christ. There was no refrigeration, no preservatives, and chemical pollutants were not an issue, nor were chemical pesticides used in the growing of crops.
To say that Jesus ate meat, or ate fish is oversimplifying the issue. The actual eating of anything, the actual taking something into one’s mouth, is not at the heart of this issue. ***It is the acts of violence that preceed the consumption ***(for this particular thread.) In other threads we have also considered the consequences that participating in “factory farming” has on our environment, the misappropriation of resources, and how “factory farming” keeps even more food out of the mouths of poor, less affluent peoples.
Yes, we should pay particular attention to Genesis, and the world as originally created by God. God’s original vision did not include carnivorousness for ***any of His creation. And in Isaiah ***we return to the peaceable kingdom. We are living in a “fallen” world, and I don’t think the point is to fall farther or to keep on falling.
- Status