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janeway529
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What’s the difference between these terms?
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ProVobis
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otjm
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Pro Vobis cited a definition of doctrine and dogma.
Discipline is a rule, and rules are subject to being changed.
Some examples:
It is a discipline in the Roman (Latin) Church that married men may not be ordained.
That is a rule; it was not always thus, and in fact it is a rule whioch currently has exceptions, those exceptions being married men who were previously Protestant ministers, who convert and approach the Church about being ordained. They are primarily from Anglican/Episcopal, but include some Methodists, some Lutherans, and 9although he recently died) at least one Presbyterian.
It is not, however, a rule within at least some of the Eastern Rite Churches in union with Rome. They, too, are Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.
It is currently the rule (as I understand it) that a man who has been ordained a permanent deacon will not be ordained a priest.
It was a rule that the Mass was said in Latin in the Roman rite; that rule was changed to allow the Mass to be said in one’s native tongue.
Discipline is a rule, and rules are subject to being changed.
Some examples:
It is a discipline in the Roman (Latin) Church that married men may not be ordained.
That is a rule; it was not always thus, and in fact it is a rule whioch currently has exceptions, those exceptions being married men who were previously Protestant ministers, who convert and approach the Church about being ordained. They are primarily from Anglican/Episcopal, but include some Methodists, some Lutherans, and 9although he recently died) at least one Presbyterian.
It is not, however, a rule within at least some of the Eastern Rite Churches in union with Rome. They, too, are Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.
It is currently the rule (as I understand it) that a man who has been ordained a permanent deacon will not be ordained a priest.
It was a rule that the Mass was said in Latin in the Roman rite; that rule was changed to allow the Mass to be said in one’s native tongue.
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ProVobis
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Perhaps a philosophical question: What’s the difference between discipline and the lack of it?
In managerial training, discipline is equivalent to punishment so I try to be careful in how I use the term.
In managerial training, discipline is equivalent to punishment so I try to be careful in how I use the term.
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otjm
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It is a philosophical question, and a good part of it starts with a definition of the term.
As the Church uses the term in discussions about doctrine/discipline, discipline does not mean punishment; it means rule or practice.
As you well know; although others don’t.
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ProVobis
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And then there is the apostolic discipline {apostolica disciplina) as described in the document from Trent Session 22 on Doctrine of the Sacrifice of the Mass (DOCTRINA DE SACRIFICIO MISSÆ):
If this discipline (low tones, etc.) is something that can be changed, then do we have a changing doctrine as well? What else would a casual reader of this “doctrine” conclude? The rite was instituted so that parts indeed be pronounced in low and high tones.
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otjm
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The casual reader, if they are lacking in education about the Faith, would go off half-cocked. Not unlike some have, of recent memory.
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frjohnmorris
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I do not know where else to post this, so forgive me if it is irrelevant to this thread.
First of all I am an Eastern Orthodox Priest.
When I was teaching my people about the Assumption of Mary, I was asked if the Catholics believe that Mary died?
The Orthodox doctrine is that Mary died and was buried in the presence of all the Apostles except St. Thomas. He arrived in Jerusalem 3 days later and asked to see the body of the Blessed Virgin. They opened her tomb and found it empty. They they saw a vision of Mary ascending body and soul to Heaven. Thus Orthodox believe in the bodily assumption of the Mother of God after her death.
I asked three different Catholic priests and did not get a definite answer.
Archpriest John W. Morris
First of all I am an Eastern Orthodox Priest.
When I was teaching my people about the Assumption of Mary, I was asked if the Catholics believe that Mary died?
The Orthodox doctrine is that Mary died and was buried in the presence of all the Apostles except St. Thomas. He arrived in Jerusalem 3 days later and asked to see the body of the Blessed Virgin. They opened her tomb and found it empty. They they saw a vision of Mary ascending body and soul to Heaven. Thus Orthodox believe in the bodily assumption of the Mother of God after her death.
I asked three different Catholic priests and did not get a definite answer.
Archpriest John W. Morris
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JM3
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vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
The Apostolic Constitution appears to leave open whether the Blessed Virgin died or not, although it does state this:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM
While the Church does not state, specifically, that she died, “that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son” would suggest that she did.
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thistle
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The Church is silent on this. We are free to believe Mary died or did not die before she was assumed.
Personally, I believe she did die first based on the testimony of some of the Church Fathers.
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Randy_Carson
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Dogma
A dogma is 1) a divinely revealed truth which 2) has been proclaimed as such by the infallible teaching authority of the Church.
- A dogma must be found explicitly or implicitly in the deposit of faith given to the Church by Jesus in Sacred Scripture and/or Sacred Tradition.
- A dogma must be infallibly taught by the Church as divinely revealed.
All dogmas are infallibly taught as divinely revealed truths, but not all infallibly defined truths are taught as divinely revealed. In the latter case, the infallibly taught truth would not be considered a dogma.
A doctrine is a way of understanding divine revelation and which is taught authoritatively by the Magisterium of the Church. Doctrine may be defined either infallibly or non-infallibly. All dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas.
Discipline
A discipline is a rule of the Church which requires obedience due to the authority given to the Church by Jesus. Disciplines may be changed during the course of history based upon the needs of the Church. Examples of Church disciplines include fasting during Lent and the celibacy of priests in the Latin rite.
Devotion
A devotion is a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation. Devotions directed toward God are rightly called worship while devotions directed toward saints are classified as veneration.
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frjohnmorris
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It is obvious to me that Rome at least allows for the Eastern Orthodox interpretation. The Menaion, which is a set of 12 book of the services for the feast days for each month, published by the Melkites is a translation from the same Arabic language Menaion used by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. It is the version of the Menaion that I use in my parish. The texts for the feast of the Assumption in the Menaion tell the story of her death and assumption into Heaven. The icon for the feast shows her lying in the tomb with Our Lord standing above her holding her as His blessed Mother held Him when He was an infant. Since the Melkites are in Communion with Rome, I would assume that since their beliefs are identical to our beliefs concerning the Assumption that our beliefs are acceptable to Rome.
Archpriest John W. Morris
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thistle
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I agree with you. The fact the Church allows us to believe either way means your interpretation cannot be said to be wrong. Your interpretation does not contradict the teaching of Rome because there is no teaching on Mary’s death or no death.
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Alfonsus
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Regarding assumption, in fact in the West, it is more traditional to believe that Mary did die.
Simply look at art and procession, usually the assumption is depicted with Mary’s empty tomb. The Dormition of Mary is also depicted in the Door of Death (called thus because it is used for funeral procession) in St. Peter Basilica, side by side with the Crucifixion.
The Mystery of Elche, is a play about the dormition and assumption of the Virgin that is played every year in Basilica of Elche, approved by Pope Urban VIII in 1632.
Procession and Mystery of Elche
Simply look at art and procession, usually the assumption is depicted with Mary’s empty tomb. The Dormition of Mary is also depicted in the Door of Death (called thus because it is used for funeral procession) in St. Peter Basilica, side by side with the Crucifixion.
The Mystery of Elche, is a play about the dormition and assumption of the Virgin that is played every year in Basilica of Elche, approved by Pope Urban VIII in 1632.
Procession and Mystery of Elche
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janeway529
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So, doctrines (non-infallible) and disciplines can change through the advancement of understandings through theology and the sciences? For example, the death penalty, funerals for those who commit suicide, and married clergy.
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thistle
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Doctrines cannot change. They may be explained more clearly but do not change.
Disciplines can change.
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ProVobis
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Then how does one know what’s doctrine then? As I showed earlier it seems the “doctrines” of Trent have maybe not been changed but severely undermined. Low tones in Mass, for example.
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frjohnmorris
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Eastern Orthodox agree. That is why I left the Episcopal Church and became Orthodox. A pressure group can organize a political style campaign and successfully pass a vote to change the doctrine of the Episcopal and most Protestant Churches at their national conventions. I was a delegate to the convention of Texas that voted to ordain women. I am sure that the lay majority were very competent to run the financial affairs of their parish, but they were not educated in theology and were not competent to make a decision on a doctrinal matter. Our national convention of clergy and laity has no authority over doctrine, but deals exclusively with finances and other temporal matters, and, of course, the election of new Bishops, but no council or individual can change the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church. If there is a doctrinal controversy, the Bishops make the decision meeting in council. However, they cannot introduce new doctrine or change the doctrine or moral teachings of the Church.
Archpriest John W. Morris
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TimothyH
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Doctrines (beliefs) are based on the teachings of Christ, on truth revealed to us by God.
Low tones at Mass are not revealed truth.
-Tim-
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ProVobis
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Then the clearly marked doctrines of Trent are not really doctrines, but can be twisted into changeable discipline? Where has this been revealed? Just trying to clarify things a bit.
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