Dogmatic?

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t agree entirely with your post, katherine. While any truth is necessarily beauty, not all beauty is truth. For indeed beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Second, since beauty is in the eye of the individual beholder, his or her failure to see it is his or her failure, not yours. Yes, you may have failed to present it fully, and yes, you can change your approach somewhat, but you can’t change your approach to suit their sense of beauty if that beauty is not itself true.

For example, some people just will never accept, say, the idea of the Trinity. You could have presented it in all its beauty just as well as mortal man could present it, and yet, they can’t accept it for their idea of truth/ beauty just can’t co-exist with yours.

Don’t let yourself become a hostage to today’s self-esteem-feel goodism that basically says that if somebody doesn’t understand, it’s because whoever tried to teach them didn’t do a good enough job. Because, quite frankly, sometimes people don’t understand because THEY aren’t doing a good enough job learning.

It takes two to tango, and we are responsible not just for teaching but for learning, ourselves.

 

[aridite]

Tantum ergo:

I don’t agree entirely with your post, katherine. While any truth is necessarily beauty, not all beauty is truth. For indeed beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Second, since beauty is in the eye of the individual beholder, his or her failure to see it is his or her failure, not yours. Yes, you may have failed to present it fully, and yes, you can change your approach somewhat, but you can’t change your approach to suit their sense of beauty if that beauty is not itself true.

For example, some people just will never accept, say, the idea of the Trinity. You could have presented it in all its beauty just as well as mortal man could present it, and yet, they can’t accept it for their idea of truth/ beauty just can’t co-exist with yours.

Don’t let yourself become a hostage to today’s self-esteem-feel goodism that basically says that if somebody doesn’t understand, it’s because whoever tried to teach them didn’t do a good enough job. Because, quite frankly, sometimes people don’t understand because THEY aren’t doing a good enough job learning.

It takes two to tango, and we are responsible not just for teaching but for learning, ourselves.

bene dictum!

 

[redeemed1]

So according to what I have read here, you are to be dogmatic about the traditions and commandments of men such as the Council of Trent declarations which are not anywhere to be found in the Word of God. I find that a bit ludicrous since God gave us His Word to be dogmatic about.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Now the only doctrines we are to be dogmatic about are those found within the Word of God.

 

[TNT]

redeemed1: So according to what I have read here, you are to be dogmatic about the traditions and commandments of men such as the Council of Trent declarations which are not anywhere to be found in the Word of God. I find that a bit ludicrous since God gave us His Word to be dogmatic about.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jame:1:4: But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

**

Now the only doctrines we are to be dogmatic about are those found within the Word of God

**

1Tim:3:15: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

**Is Hebrews part of the Bible? If so, why so? **
When did it become so?
Who said so?
Why should I believe them who said so?
Who wrote it?
Who said it was inspired?
I insist that all the above dogmatic questions be answered from:"the only doctrines we are to be dogmatic about… within the Word of God."

 

[Catholic_Mike]

kmmd:

This actually comes from a person of little or no faith and he uses the accusation to mean an “arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles” This definition comes from the American Heritage Dictionary, definition No. 2 The No. 1 definition is “Relating to, characteristic of, or resulting from dogma” (not real helpful). If you go to Merriam Webster it refers you to “dogmatism” where the first definition is “positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant” At the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary Online, one finds: “If someone is dogmatic, they are certain that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.” It seems that the secular world has a dim view of anything relating to dogma. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. It has been a long time that Doubt is given a higher place in Western culture than belief.

I must admit, however, on matters of faith, I do believe that my Church is right and all others are wrong where ever they disagree. So Yeah, I sure am dogmatic.

Well, if you’re not being arrogant and you have reasons for your beliefs, there isn’t a problem, eh? Anyway, it sounds like he *may *be ‘dogmatic’ himself if the dogmatism accusation is the best counterargument he can give…

 

[redeemed1]

it sounds like he *may *be ‘dogmatic’ himself if the dogmatism accusation is the best counterargument he can give…

Well, if you would read your Bible instead of just the rcc dogmas which are false you would find that the real Pillar and Ground of the Truth is the Living God. His Word stands sure in Jesus Christ Who is God Manifest in the Flesh. Given to us in written form so we would be able to live for Him.

Not man made standards. Do you even have any idea where your so called dogmas come from? The ones that are even closely linked are changed to suit a papal heirarchy or to make money or both. These are things that Jesus called the Pharisees Liars, hypocrites and worse for. Jesus pronounced woes on these people for the very same things the RCC does year after year.

It is funny you know; I grew up in this system and since I was born there have been so many changes and additions. Accepting Islam and Hinduism and other forms of worship to false gods were not part of the RCC, but now the pope celebrates other religions?He is wrong in claiming that the RCC is the only church and yet worshipping whatever deity or gods the other pagans believe in; that is outright blasphemy against a Holy and Righteous God. Jesus has only one body, and that is based on what He says, not your efc’s or anyone else. Since when did all paths lead to God? The RCC has claimed they are the only way for years yet Jesus said He is the only way, and now others?

When will you guys wake up to the fact that you aren’t in a saving faith? Jesus is the only way, and the dogmas we were brought up to believe are only recent history, they were not part of the original faith that Jesus taught. No church can save you, no dogma can save you, no saint can pray for you unless they are alive and on this planet. **The Holy Spirit of Christ is the only one that can truly intercede for you to the Father of Lights. **

 

[TNT]

redeemed1:

Well, if you would read your Bible instead of just the rcc dogmas which are false you would find that the real Pillar and Ground of the Truth is the Living God

There you go, perverting what your own bible says clearly. Or, what verse are you quoting WITHIN the Word of God??

Are you going to address #24 or are you just going to practice sermons.

BTW, Clinton perverted the office of US president. By your thinking, the office no longer exists, and the US gov. is now invalid.
Also, if your preacher preaches heresy, by your standard, then your church is invalid.

If you are going to be of ANY effect on this forum, you’ll have to address issues coherently, instead of practicing sermons.

Get the book CATHOLIC CONTROVERSY by Francis de Sales.
at
tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/292/

Then come back and refute it…issue by issue. We will listen.

Also, we need your exclusive Divine Certificate of Authority to interpret the Catholic Scriptures before we can give credit to your teachings.

I hope these demands are not asking too much.
God Bless

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Always remember that most people are guilty of what they accuse you of. Secularists (atheists, agnostics, etc.) will accuse you of dogmatism, but they are clinging to the informal dogma of relativism. Insisting on scientific proof for God while at the same time holding to the scientifically unprovable belief that matter is all there is to the universe (Dave Armstrong calls it Deo-Atomism).

We also see it in our anti-Catholics like redeemed1 who accuses Catholics of holding to man made traditions while clinging to the man made traditions of either Luther, Calvin or some other Deformer.

Always look for the unacknowledged philosophy and call them on it.

Scott

 

[katherine2]

Always look for the unacknowledged philosophy and call them on it.

Scott

Why? So you can “one up” them? Oh, if its a friendly discussion for your personal entertainment, why not. But don’t confuse that with evangelization.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Catholic_Mike:

What’s the alternative to being “dogmatic?” Making stuff up?

Depends ​

Acuusations that one is being “dogmatic” can mean that one is saying things and expecting them to be believed without giving sufficiently persuasive evidence for them

or

it can mean that one is quite simply being abrupt in one’s manner (this is often combined with the previous sense)

or

it can mean that one is talking about dogmas (which is how it seems to be taken on this thread)

If people don’t know what those they with whom they talk mean by what they say: they should ask them - not a lot of folk on a board ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

MiddleBear:

What’s the alternative to being “dogmatic?” Making stuff up?

How about …

“catmatic”!

My karma ran over your dogma ​

 

[Scott_Waddell]

katherine2:

Why? So you can “one up” them? Oh, if its a friendly discussion for your personal entertainment, why not. But don’t confuse that with evangelization.

Huh? What I am describing is standard procedure in a rational discussion–questioning the underlying assumptions in someone’s posistion. The goal as always is Truth. Am I coming off as glib or flippant? That’s not my intention. I am merely pointing out that many people who attack the Catholic faith employ special pleading and one needs to point that out. I think when you can show that an objector is on the same ground as the thing he is objecting to, it goes a long way toward good evangelization.

Scott

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

redeemed1:

Well, if you would read your Bible instead of just the rcc dogmas which are false you would find that the real Pillar and Ground of the Truth is the Living God. His Word stands sure in Jesus Christ Who is God Manifest in the Flesh. Given to us in written form so we would be able to live for Him.

Not man made standards. Do you even have any idea where your so called dogmas come from? The ones that are even closely linked are changed to suit a papal heirarchy or to make money or both. These are things that Jesus called the Pharisees Liars, hypocrites and worse for. Jesus pronounced woes on these people for the very same things the RCC does year after year.

And it’s perfectly possible that the Church is full of Pharisees, hypocrites and liars worse than ever they were. But what of it ? The Gospel is a Gospel of grace - it is God’s and not ours, so even if your criticisms are motre than justified, our sins cannot uproot God’s planting; they can warp it, but not ultimately destroy it. Human sin cannot overcome the weakness of Christ. Even if your criticism are justified - they may be; or they may not.​

FWIW, I think you are not being evangelical enough. ##

It is funny you know; I grew up in this system and since I was born there have been so many changes and additions. Accepting Islam and Hinduism and other forms of worship to false gods were not part of the RCC, but now the pope celebrates other religions?He is wrong in claiming that the RCC is the only church and yet worshipping whatever deity or gods the other pagans believe in; that is outright blasphemy against a Holy and Righteous God. Jesus has only one body, and that is based on what He says, not your efc’s or anyone else. Since when did all paths lead to God? The RCC has claimed they are the only way for years yet Jesus said He is the only way, and now others?

Amos 7 and Acts 17 and Jonah 4 and Acts 10 and Romans 2 may be worth reading. God’s Holiness is not being compromised - the CC is merely growing up a bit, and realising - not before time - that she has no monopoly on God’s grace. IMO, she is acting in accord with what she admitted theoretically almost 300 years ago - that God’s grace is not confined to the Church; head-knowledge, is becoming heart-knowledge.​

When will you guys wake up to the fact that you aren’t in a saving faith? Jesus is the only way, and the dogmas we were brought up to believe are only recent history, they were not part of the original faith that Jesus taught. No church can save you, no dogma can save you, no saint can pray for you unless they are alive and on this planet. **The Holy Spirit of Christ is the only one that can truly intercede for you to the Father of Lights. **

Christ saves, of course - but the Church is a means by which salvation is made more secure. I hope you aren’t saying that death ends the communion Christians have with each other - that is unBiblical, because “Jesus Christ has abolished death, bringing life and immortality to light through the Gospel”. That is not us saying so, but NT Scripture.​

As for the late date of dogmas - Jesus “grew in wisdom and understanding before God and men” (Luke 2). So must the Church, His Body. And it is the Spirit of “this Jesus” who protects His Church & Gospel from going wrong. These dogmas grow out of the planting of Christ - an acorn and an oak are very different in many ways, but the one is the source of the other nonetheless.

It is God Who grants a saving faith - so why should being Catholic get in the way ? That would imply that man can successfully obstruct God’s gifts. If God gives saving faith, one’s own disabilities & insufficiencies & sins cannot get in the way of it. Because God is Sovereign in His giving of His gifts, and all our failures in obedience, all the details of our lives, work only to His greater glory and honour and praise - unless you think He is too weak to overrule, and work in, all the circumstances of our lives. Again, I think your objections are not evangelical enough - because they suggest that outward circumstances are enough to block God’s power. But it is through such things that God so often works.

What is to ensure that Evangelicals all have saving faith ? Mere identification by men as Evangelicals, is no guarantee that God considers them to be such. So it is as possible for an Evangelical as for a Catholic not to be saved. Salvation is from God: not from Catholics or Evangelicals: all we are, is, the needy beneficiaries of His Love - we have nothing in ourselves to recommend ourselves to Him

Somehow, I think you’re not a Calvinist - at least they insist that God is Soverereign ##

 

[CARose]

redeemed1:

Well, if you would read your Bible instead of just the rcc dogmas which are false you would find that the real Pillar and Ground of the Truth is the Living God.

Wow, do you have a mistaken understanding of scripture. Perhaps this is why the the Egyptian Eunich said he couldn’t know scripture for he had noone to teach him. Acts 8:27-31

Let’s start with the verse you misquote above. Which bible translation do you use? You’re referencing 1 Tim 3:15, which has been translated a number of different ways including:

“… which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth …” Authorized King James Version, Conformable to the edition of 1611, published by World Publishing Company

“… you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. …” New International Version, Zondervan Publishing House 1973, 1978, 1984

“…which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. …” Revised Standard Edition, Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America, Old Testament Section 1952, New Testament Section 1946

“…the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. …” New American Standard Bible, NT, The Lockman Foundation, 1960, 1962, 1963

“… in God’s household, that is, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. …” The New English Bible, NT, Oxford University Press, 1970

“… in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. …” The New Catholic Study Bible, St. Jerome Edition, Catholic Bible Press, 1985

“… household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. …” The New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1991

Ditto, NAB, The Catholic Answer Bible, Fireside Catholic Publishing, 2002

“… the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. …” Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, Ignatius Bible, Ignatius Press, 1952

What’s funny is that I own the majority of these bibles specifically because of this quote. I was sharing it with a pastor who helped my fallen away aunt during her dying. He is a wonderful who sadly has the Word but is missing out on the Body of Christ, substantially present in the tabernacles of the world. When I approached him, after surprising myself by inviting him to come to the Body of Christ through the Catholic Church, and shared this quote in answer to his suggestion that we share Bible studying, his reply was to ask “which translation I was using”. At the time, I was one of the many Catholics who had little understanding of the differences in translations.

I have since followed the example of the Egyptian, and sought out instruction in my learning the meaning of scripture. I have also used the advice of this Pastor friend and sought the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit. This led me to desire greatly to share the passage from the Magnificat, “My soul doeth magnify the Glory of Our Lord”. Imagine my continued surprise when I learned that the translations for this text varies greatly, with the potential of completely changing the meaning of the verse.

Personally, I’m thrilled that I have the oral tradition to reduce the tendancy of teaching to stray, as can be seen in the Protestant denominations. Don’t agree with the Pastor, no problem, start a new Church. No need for Apostolic Succession, no need to be sent, just open the doors of your Garage, Living Room or storefront in the near-by strip mall. Put up a sign, set out the chairs, and we have ourselves a Church with the Most Correct Interpretation, just as the neighboring Church has their own Most Correct Interpretations. Personally, I desire to learn from the Church which was established by Christ himself. The Church against which it was promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail. The Church with the Teaching Authority of God, watched over by the Holy Spirit, sent forth by Christ Jesus.

cont …

 

[CARose]

This is the standard to which I adhere. Man made, I think not.

There is nothing new in any of the “Papal” dogmas. Each of them are consistant with scripture and all come from Public Revelation given to us during the days of the Apostles. Those which have been infallibly defined most recently are NOT new, but rather are truths which have been taught from the beginning of the New Covenant. Dogma is only defined infallibly when necessary to ensure that heresy not reign. When we all agree that the most common color of sky on a clear sunny day, free from polution is blue, spending time and energy defining this truth seems ridiculous. But if we’d had a long stretch of foggy weather, such that the clear blue sky had faded in memory, and doubt to it’s existance began to be put into question, such a definition might become necessary. Putting forth this definition in no way changes the unchangeable truth of the color of our atmosphere sans cloud and pollutant, even if this truth is for the moment under debate among the modern thinker.

Christ came to save all the world, including those who have not yet come to know the beauty of His sacrifice. If they know the truth, truly understand it, realize it to be true and yet still reject it for want of the worldly gains they might have by retaining another Faith, they would indeed be dooming themselves if they fail to repent and turn to the Love of God before they die. But if they never truly know the Gospel and the Good News it offers to all mankind, how can we suggest that God does not have a path to salvation for them. Christ died for all mankind. This is eminantly clear in scripture and is in no way new to the Church.

This in no way contradicts the Truth that all salvation is through Christ. However, those who know him not by name are not precluded from the joy of His salvation, if they lived, even though it be unwittingly, by His precepts of Love.

You claim that no Saint can save us but those who are alive “on this planet”. First - we don’t claim that saints “save” anyone. They do intercede for us, but Christ alone saves. Second - who says that saints need to be alive “on this planet”? Did not Christ himself promise eternal life to those who love him with all their heart? What is eternal life if those who did just that are now dead? No, they are alive in Christ, for He is a God who keeps His word, as He has in all that has been written of Him in the Bible, both the Old and New Testatment, for God is unchanging, even if we are not.

You claim that the Catholic Church is an unsaving Faith. How sad. You would condemn all your ancestors from before the Reformation. I believe that it is only because of the Catholic Church that these is any salvation, for it is through the Catholic Church that grace is brought into the world on a regular basis. The Holy Spirit continues to work thorough-out the world, even on those outside the Church, and yet without the Church there would be no salvation. Christ told us as much when he assured us that the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

Please, your understanding of the Church is mistaken. I know, for I was once there. Perhaps not in quite the same way as you, but certainly as confused about what the Church teaches. I will pray that your understanding of Christ and his scriptures enlightens you and brings you home to the Fullness of the Truth.

CARose

redeemed1:

Not man made standards. Do you even have any idea where your so called dogmas come from? The ones that are even closely linked are changed to suit a papal heirarchy or to make money or both. These are things that Jesus called the Pharisees Liars, hypocrites and worse for. Jesus pronounced woes on these people for the very same things the RCC does year after year.

It is funny you know; I grew up in this system and since I was born there have been so many changes and additions. Accepting Islam and Hinduism and other forms of worship to false gods were not part of the RCC, but now the pope celebrates other religions?He is wrong in claiming that the RCC is the only church and yet worshipping whatever deity or gods the other pagans believe in; that is outright blasphemy against a Holy and Righteous God. Jesus has only one body, and that is based on what He says, not your efc’s or anyone else. Since when did all paths lead to God? The RCC has claimed they are the only way for years yet Jesus said He is the only way, and now others?

When will you guys wake up to the fact that you aren’t in a saving faith? Jesus is the only way, and the dogmas we were brought up to believe are only recent history, they were not part of the original faith that Jesus taught. No church can save you, no dogma can save you, no saint can pray for you unless they are alive and on this planet. **The Holy Spirit of Christ is the only one that can truly intercede for you to the Father of Lights. **