Doing the Minimum

[Annabelle_Marie]

Like it or not, as adult Catholics, folks take notice of our actions.

Some have ill intent. They seek to expose hypocrisy, wrongdoing and malignancy within the Body of Christ and will stop at nothing in their effort to discredit our Faith. We should not play into their hands.

Our actions are also noticed by younger Catholics and recent converts. As presumably those who “know our Faith”, we have a duty to set the best possible example for them to emulate and pass on to others. This applies to clergy and lay faithful alike.

The Catholic Church has form and structure that distinguishes it from other institutions that claim Christian heritage. The Nicean Creed is not a fairy tale that we recite between Marty Haugen tunes. It is a solemn profession of our Holy Faith. Nothing less.

We assist the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to adore God, give Him thanks, beg forgiveness for past sins and petition for our intentions. As human beings, subordinate to God in every way, our best efforts will always fall short of what He is due. Considering what’s at stake, the idea of voluntarily degrading one’s relationship with God to a level that’s “allowed”, seems reckless and irresponsible to me.
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I don’t disagree with what you are saying. However, who is to say that we are “voluntarily degrading one’s relationship with God to a level that is “allowed” by not kneeling at communion?” That is an external which can never fully reveal the heart of man. Someone in the same sense could be degrading their relationship by doing the kneeling and CITT just to show how pious they are. We can not know what is internal.

Not that Robert doesn’t have a good point about the world with abortion and homosexuality. I just fail to see how we can be a good example of the church’s clear teaching on those matter when we “quibble” and “judge” over things that the Church has allowed some flexibility. Don’t we think that the world watches and says…“well, they can’t agree that the Church got that right…what is going to make me think that they have abortion, contraception, or homosexuality right?”

 

[mick321]

I don’t disagree with what you are saying. However, who is to say that we are “voluntarily degrading one’s relationship with God to a level that is “allowed” by not kneeling at communion?” That is an external which can never fully reveal the heart of man. Someone in the same sense could be degrading their relationship by doing the kneeling and CITT just to show how pious they are. We can not know what is internal.

Not that Robert doesn’t have a good point about the world with abortion and homosexuality. I just fail to see how we can be a good example of the church’s clear teaching on those matter when we “quibble” and “judge” over things that the Church has allowed some flexibility. Don’t we think that the world watches and says…“well, they can’t agree that the Church got that right…what is going to make me think that they have abortion, contraception, or homosexuality right?”

If you’re saying that returning to Catholicism from the Protestant wilderness is an “upgrade” of your relationship with God - OK - that’s commendable.

I agree that if one were willing to expend enough effort, he could mask his inner disposition behind a veneer of mock-sanctity or mock-irreverence. But to what end? God knows our heart. What is the motivation for the disconnect? Who benefits from this sort of charade? I want to think that this dissociative identity thing - as it relates to behavior in Mass - is very rare.

For Catholics, salvation is an ongoing process. The standard is remains high, regardless of what is “allowed”. The road to salvation is not supposed to be a downhill slide. I can’t imagine that we will be graded on the curve.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I don’t disagree with what you are saying. However, who is to say that we are “voluntarily degrading one’s relationship with God to a level that is “allowed” by not kneeling at communion?” That is an external which can never fully reveal the heart of man. Someone in the same sense could be degrading their relationship by doing the kneeling and CITT just to show how pious they are. We can not know what is internal.

Not that Robert doesn’t have a good point about the world with abortion and homosexuality. I just fail to see how we can be a good example of the church’s clear teaching on those matter when we “quibble” and “judge” over things that the Church has allowed some flexibility. Don’t we think that the world watches and says…“well, they can’t agree that the Church got that right…what is going to make me think that they have abortion, contraception, or homosexuality right?”

Annabelle, you are right IMHO. When Catholics squabble and bicker over things like which bodily position is more reverent when receiving the Host or claim that the mouth is holier than the hands (which it is, but not in the way they mean ) it makes us look bad and it makes the Church look bad. I don’t think it’s so much the differences of opinion but how they are being expressed.

I have a back injury. If I knelt down to receive Communion I would have to hold onto something or someone and then getting back up would take a lot of effort and would draw unwanted and undeserved attention to me when attention should be on God.

It’s the same with taking Communion in the hand. I have TMJ disorder and I can’t open my mouth very wide. The priest would have a difficult time getting the host onto my tongue in a way that it wouldn’t fall off.

As it is, I don’t even stand in line for Communion. I stand in my pew and the priest brings it to me and places it in my hand. And believe me, I am reverent when receiving the Body and Blood of God. I always cry. Always.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s the same with taking Communion in the hand. I have TMJ disorder and I can’t open my mouth very wide. The priest would have a difficult time getting the host onto my tongue in a way that it wouldn’t fall off.

That’s a problem because they make the communion bread larger these days. I don’t know the reason for that. It used to be easy to swallow without the Host touching your teeth.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think traditional things can be beautiful. In Wichita, St. Anthony is where they have the TLM and where I got to play pipe organ for a few years. No, I didn’t get to play for the TLM (I play at my home parish at 8 am Sunday) but it was breathtaking, especially after it was recently restored. Here’s a view from my “office” up on the rear wall:

http://www.stanthonywichita.com/parts/churchinterior.jpg

They restored that church with a great deal of time, money, and volunteer labor, and amazing talent. Why? Because it is beautiful. They don’t build 'em like that anymore.

That said, I don’t think just because something is traditional automatically means it is more beautiful than something that isn’t.

Alan

Alan, I think that church is absolutely beautiful, especially the arch where it states “This is a House of God…” Does it go back quite a distance under the arch, as it appears, or is that a trick of the camera or an optical illusion or a sign that I need to see the optometrist?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Alan, I think that church is absolutely beautiful, especially the arch where it states “This is a House of God…” Does it go back quite a distance under the arch, as it appears, or is that a trick of the camera or an optical illusion or a sign that I need to see the optometrist?

It does. The whole altar and tabernacle and everything are behind that arch. Behind the altar there are built-in ladders for access to the top of that structure.

Alan

 

[Robert_Burns]

Longing for greater reverence is commendible.

And if I were to say that I deliberately spat out the Host, or somehow desecrated this Sacrament, you would not only have a right but a duty to judge me (but NOT the state of my soul.)

You have not, however, seemed to acknowledge that a man can receive more reverently standing than one who is kneeling/receiving on the tongue but daydreaming or in a state of mortal sin.

By focusing on externals, there is very much a sense of, ‘You don’t measure up to MY standards of holiness.’

These standards are not those of the Church, which, thank God, is indeed a hospital for sinners.

Look - a post like this baiting for an argument. And as other posts have clearly demonstratted - thats exactly what will occur. I really didnt begin this thread to get into a whats allowed and what isnt discussion. I am not going to answer any further posts that attempt to get into this fruitless area of discussion. Since this conversation is taking place on the Traditional forum - then understand I am approaching it from a traditional perspective. I could understand your consternation had I deliberately sought out those who are enamored with the OF in order to demonize the OF which I have tried my very best NOT to do. I was lookiing for Positive ideas that could engender a greater appreciation for the Real Presence - for Catholic Morality for Catholic moral precepts that can eminate from our Churchs as good examples for Catholic youth so that Catholics can become an example for non catholics in our society instead of followers and stand out rather than be considered “just another religion.” If we as Catholics are called to a higher existance - in my view we should live the example. I dont think we can complain about the degradation of Society if we are part of the problem. Apparently this concept is far exceeding some of the people in this forum - who instead of uniting in a common purpose - instead seek to degrade this discussion into a fruitless back and forth waste of time.

So if you are looking to me to engage in this type of discussion - you have come to the wrong place.

Pax

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Ultimately, a desire to do ‘more than the minimum’ will never come from without—not from me saying to Mass attendees, ‘Stop coming to Mass in your underwear!’

And never, ever from someone shaking a finger in your face and saying, ‘You’re not doing more than the minimum enough!’

Such a change has to come from within—from Grace if you will. You cannot force people into it; you cannot will it through condemnation nor gritted teeth. That will only accomplish the exact opposite.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I think traditional things can be beautiful. In Wichita, St. Anthony is where they have the TLM and where I got to play pipe organ for a few years. No, I didn’t get to play for the TLM (I play at my home parish at 8 am Sunday) but it was breathtaking, especially after it was recently restored. Here’s a view from my “office” up on the rear wall:

http://www.stanthonywichita.com/parts/churchinterior.jpg

They restored that church with a great deal of time, money, and volunteer labor, and amazing talent. Why? Because it is beautiful. They don’t build 'em like that anymore.

That said, I don’t think just because something is traditional automatically means it is more beautiful than something that isn’t.

Alan

sticking with the Tradition is the safest way to remain a Catholic. as we know theology of all kinds have been surfacing all over the Church causing confusion and dissagreements among ourselves. pay attention who you are listen to in these days. there are even teachings within the Church that denies the historical Jesus, virginity of Mary, all this to destroy the authority of the Church. the best place to begin the destruction is the changes of the Mass and the archeture of the Church. watch for cardinals, bishops, and priests. watch them and compare what they are saying to what? to the Tradition of 2000 years. otherwise you will be swept by heresy of the modernists in teh Church. remember your distance between you and the Vatican…

 

[Robert_Burns]

Ultimately, a desire to do ‘more than the minimum’ will never come from without—not from me saying to Mass attendees, ‘Stop coming to Mass in your underwear!’

And never, ever from someone shaking a finger in your face and saying, ‘You’re not doing more than the minimum enough!’

Such a change has to come from within—from Grace if you will. You cannot force people into it; you cannot will it through condemnation nor gritted teeth. That will only accomplish the exact opposite.

Robert : I agree - but if more and more Catholics see other Catholics coming to Church in their underwear and instead of adopting the attitude of - “Well if they can do it I can do it” and next week they show up in their underwear because they can get away with it - is that then the preferable outcome? Or should you set the good example by not being a lemming? IMO - the latter is what we are called to do.

I dont advocate shaking my finger in someones face and humiliating them in public. But if my Teenage Daughter came out of her bedroom in shots and a tee shirt for Church she would see some serious finger wagging . And she would be instructed that this is not the minimum requirement.

And today - the fact that people do the bare minimum is because of the attitude you just expressed. As though we are powerless to effect change.

I completely disagree. It starts at home. And when it doesnt start at home then you get what we have today.

 

[LittleSoldier]

sticking with the Tradition is the safest way to remain a Catholic. as we know theology of all kinds have been surfacing all over the Church causing confusion and dissagreements among ourselves. pay attention who you are listen to in these days. there are even teachings within the Church that denies the historical Jesus, virginity of Mary, all this to destroy the authority of the Church. the best place to begin the destruction is the changes of the Mass and the archeture of the Church. watch for cardinals, bishops, and priests. watch them and compare what they are saying to what? to the Tradition of 2000 years. otherwise you will be swept by heresy of the modernists in teh Church. remember your distance between you and the Vatican…

I am sorry but I don’t quite understand your post. Are you saying that the Church has taught that Mary was not a virgin and this was taught in order to destroy the authority of the Church? That’s what I’m reading and that makes no sense at all.

Who are the “modernists”? Are these the people would wish to attend and do attend the OF when they have a choice? Are you saying these people are heretics? I can’t believe you would say something like that, so again I don’t understand.

Would you please rephrase your post? I don’t think I’m understanding what you are trying to say.

Thanks very much!

 

[Robert_Burns]

I am sorry but I don’t quite understand your post. Are you saying that the Church has taught that Mary was not a virgin and this was taught in order to destroy the authority of the Church? That’s what I’m reading and that makes no sense at all.

Who are the “modernists”? Are these the people would wish to attend and do attend the OF when they have a choice? Are you saying these people are heretics? I can’t believe you would say something like that, so again I don’t understand.

Would you please rephrase your post? I don’t think I’m understanding what you are trying to say.

Thanks very much!

Forgive me for interjecting - But I began this thread in hopes that we could all submit positive plans of action to effect Change for the betterment of the Church. It doesnt matter whether you go to the OF or the EF and this thread is starting to get off topic.

I would ask you to refrain from taking the thread in a direction other than that intended. We all realize that there are people who go to the OF and people who go to the EF. But this thread is not about where you prefer to go or which you think is better - its a plea for grassroots Ideas that can be incorporated wherever you go to effect positive change in the Church.

If you want to have an OF verses EF debate then might I ask you to start your own thread ?

Thanks.

Robert.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Forgive me for interjecting - But I began this thread in hopes that we could all submit positive plans of action to effect Change for the betterment of the Church. It doesnt matter whether you go to the OF or the EF and this thread is starting to get off topic.

I would ask you to refrain from taking the thread in a direction other than that intended. We all realize that there are people who go to the OF and people who go to the EF. But this thread is not about where you prefer to go or which you think is better - its a plea for grassroots Ideas that can be incorporated wherever you go to effect positive change in the Church.

If you want to have an OF verses EF debate then might I ask you to start your own thread ?

Thanks.

Robert.

You are not interjecting. Any member can respond to any post and as the OP it is your right to set the rules. I am certainly OK with keeping this thread on-topic and I did not take it off-topic. In your own OP you stated the following:

Some say the EF is not the answer. I say they are wrong. The EF is the answer if the Catholics even in the OF want to start kneeling for holy communion - not because they have to - but because they want to for GOD and to give good example to the youth who are the Priests of tomorrow. To Dress modestly. to live temperately. To have large Catholic families. and most importantly to subjugate the world the flesh and the devil to Almighty GOD in every aspect of their lives.

We can take our Church back and our religion back. Just as the publican kneeled I kneel for communion. Let it be our protest of the world. Recieve on the tongue not because you have to - because you protest this lack of discipline. Its s simple thing. But we can return the Church to discipline - one Catholic at a time. It has worked for 2000 years and it will work today.

Perhaps it would help if you define the topic of this thread in a way that is clear to everyone.

Placing the blame for taking the thread off-topic on me when all I did was ask for clarification of another member’s post doesn’t make sense.

I don’t want to have an OF vs. EF debate. But that started in your OP. And if I don’t understand a post I ask for clarification. And that is exactly what I did and will always do.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Robert : I agree - but if more and more Catholics see other Catholics coming to Church in their underwear and instead of adopting the attitude of - “Well if they can do it I can do it” and next week they show up in their underwear because they can get away with it - is that then the preferable outcome? Or should you set the good example by not being a lemming? IMO - the latter is what we are called to do.

I dont advocate shaking my finger in someones face and humiliating them in public. But if my Teenage Daughter came out of her bedroom in shots and a tee shirt for Church she would see some serious finger wagging . And she would be instructed that this is not the minimum requirement.

And today - the fact that people do the bare minimum is because of the attitude you just expressed. As though we are powerless to effect change.

I completely disagree. It starts at home. And when it doesnt start at home then you get what we have today.

Are you then denying God’s grace in moving people to want to do more? Are you saying we are motivated by outer forces?

Just checking.

 

[LittleSoldier]

-----continuation of last post-----

In post #14 you stated the following:

First of all , I am not bashing the OF - I simple dont see it fostering devotion. Can it be more reverent isnt the question. IS IT more reverent is. My opinion is that it isnt from what I have observed over a period of years and In fact from the Early 70’s until now I see it trending towards less reverence not more.

In post #73 you stated the following:

Because the Pharisees wanted to appear to be religious while doing the bare minimum from the standpoint of the purpose of GOD’S Commandments. The same seems to hold true today., doesnt it. Traditional catholics seek a return to spriritual devotions and a meaningful religion that matters in people lives - not a once a week floorshow. So indeed - there are pharisees alive and well today , but from my perspective they arent necessarily who you seem to think they are.

A large part of this thread has been a debate between the EF and OF and traditionalism - right from the OP. Standing vs. kneeling while receiving Communion has been discussed, also the wearing of veils and much more.

Your topic is unclear.

 

[LittleSoldier]

So what is the minimum when attending Mass? Walking up to the priest for Communion while swaggering, singing a rock song or whatever in one’s head, not praying, not keeping one’s hands together but swinging them around knocking them into other people, wearing a tee-shirt with any sort of non-religious meaning on it or one with holes and stains (although it is not our place to judge a person for such an action because we don’t know why the person is wearing that particular piece of clothing), receiving Communion because that’s what you do when you go to Mass but not understanding why or attempting to understand why, receiving Communion with a soul riddled with sin…I guess I mean that one can be at Mass and make a slight attempt to listen and pray a bit, but in a lazy sort of way and wishing one were somewhere else. It’s the same with the readings, the homily, the Offertory…we can be there or we can be there are really participate.

I don’t know what the maximum is except maybe just to do the absolute best I can. But we have to remember we are receiving GOD! I actually feel it would be appropriate to lie flat down on the floor, face down, subjugating myself to God who, through His Love and Compassion, is allowing Himself to be consumed by me - one who is so little and unworthy. His Passion is such a gift to us. GOD - the God of the universe is giving Himself to me? ME?? Who am I to deserve such a gift? He not only died for me, but is giving Himself to me in the form of His body? The wonder of it amazes me. It is so divine, holy, and precious that it is really beyond my capability to understand. It’s like infinity. It’s so loving. I’m trying to put my feelings down here and I don’t know how to do it. But to me it’s like the best gift I ever received from a fellow human being is infinitely smaller than the gift God gives me during Communion.

I will do the following in order to do more than the minimum and I hope I learn how to do even more:

(1) Get to Mass earlier (I’m never late but I don’t have much time to pray once I get to church before the Mass starts).

(2) Learn new prayers. It’s always good to use our own words but, like reading poetry, reading prayers that people who have become saints (or even not) have written can open one’s mind, heart, and soul to ideas and concepts that one has not even considered before. We go to college to learn and every class I ever took required reading at least one textbook. Why stop there? I’m going to read and read and read other people’s prayers and contemplations and I will learn how to pray better myself.

(3) I mentioned contemplation. I should contemplate more, both in church and at home. I’ve always wanted to have a little place in my house for a shrine with a crucifix, some candles to light for personal intentions, flowers, and a small fountain. But I’ve never done it. I don’t mean something huge or gaudy. I mean a small area where I can contemplate and pray.

I would also like to have a garden area for contemplation. I have a memorial garden already but I admit that because I’m ill I let it go to pot. That is frustrating to me. I’ve seen people who have gardens that just cry out for contemplation. What better place to say the Rosary (excepting church, of course)?

(4) Listen to more Christian music. It’s true that it usually is not Catholic music, but many times it helps to clear my head, to pray, and some of it is actually very good.

(5) I need to try harder. I need to actually do these things and more instead of making a list and then not taking the time and effort to actually follow through. It’s amazingly easy to “talk the talk” but I also need to “walk the walk.”

These are my ideas for myself. Both the minimum and the maximum differ for different people. I’m disabled and in a lot of pain. Yesterday I could not walk. So certainly my situation is different from a person who is physically healthy, yet that same person can have other problems that interfere with doing more than the minimum.

But I hope this post helps. Oh, there is one more thing I can do:

(6) Ask God to help me do more than the minimum. Ask God to help me increase my faith and to do the absolute best that I can. And ask Mary to pray for me.

 

[archangel04]

With the OP I agree on your post and what you are trying to say. It’s human nature to do the bare minimum, and when the Church “relaxed” some of her disciplines it caused some if not many to no longer strive for the best. We must first always remember that in order to convert others we must convert ourselves and live the life the our Father has willed for us! Some people are led to the Church by her beauty of prayer, the Mass, saints, sacraments, disciplines, and others are brought by admiring the lives of some role models of the Church that being the Pope or a simple layman. We must always remember to be open to accept all those who even have a small spec of curiosity in our Faith, BUT we must NEVER approve or conform to a sinful or lukewarm lifestyle!

I’ve chosen to attend the EF because of the more reverence and silence the Mass allows and allows me to feel much closer to the Lord. I receive COTT for the fact that I don’t feel worthy to have my sinful hands touch my Lord and see the priest as in “persona Christi” and I am receiving communion from Christ. Anyone can sing a vernacular Hymn, but it takes more effort to learn or attempt to sing Gregorian, this extra effort is given to the Lord. I can have simplicity for my Lord in daily life, but in Mass all the best should be given to the Lord. We must remember the we should always try to listen to God in silence and not to do minimum, but extra effort in prayer, discipline, or our daily lives, to choose to something for God because of our Love for Him, and not out of fear or pride (I am holier than thou or “it’s allowed now so I will do it that way”) these are wrong reasons.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Are you then denying God’s grace in moving people to want to do more? Are you saying we are motivated by outer forces?

Just checking.

Robert : GOD’s Grace isnt in question. Rather the refusal of man to conform his Will to the Will of GOD as moved by Grace voluntarily using his free will , is. So it isnt really an outer force. Its a refusal to use ones inner force for good. Every man has a choice - to do or not do. GOD’s grace is given in ample supply for each of us to make an informed decision to obey , such that we are culpable if we do not. GOD doesnt coerce. No man is tempted beyond his strength.

Pax

 

[Robert_Burns]

You are not interjecting. Any member can respond to any post and as the OP it is your right to set the rules. I am certainly OK with keeping this thread on-topic and I did not take it off-topic. In your own OP you stated the following:

Perhaps it would help if you define the topic of this thread in a way that is clear to everyone.

Placing the blame for taking the thread off-topic on me when all I did was ask for clarification of another member’s post doesn’t make sense.

I don’t want to have an OF vs. EF debate. But that started in your OP. And if I don’t understand a post I ask for clarification. And that is exactly what I did and will always do.

I expressed my opinion regarding that. It isnt to attack those who do. There is no reason for you to take offense to that. First of all , I didnt say it was wrong. I said , in my opinion , it came about in the 60’s because people wanted to do the minimum. Thats my opinion. If you dont share that opinion - fine. I dont hate you because you have a difference of opinion. And I interjected because no one was talking about Mary.

We all need to step back and take a deep breath and relax. Why does everything here have to be taken as an argument or attack?

We are all catholics.

Pax

 

[Robert_Burns]

-----continuation of last post-----

In post #14 you stated the following:

In post #73 you stated the following:

A large part of this thread has been a debate between the EF and OF and traditionalism - right from the OP. Standing vs. kneeling while receiving Communion has been discussed, also the wearing of veils and much more.

Your topic is unclear.

Because - perhaps a return to Tradition can foster more devotion. Its worth a try in my opinion. Perhaps you dont share that opinion. Feel free to come up with as many ideas as you can think of. Why do we constantly have to return to the us against them mentality.

I think its refreshing to see - Women veiled and Kneeling for Holy Communion.

Whats more - sometimes I see Protestants after Church at breakfast - the Women dressed in nice dresses and the Men in three piece suits and then I go to Mass and I see something entirely different. It makes me sad to think that many Protestants show their love for GOD externally in many cases better than we do.

Now sure , many people will come back and say - well you , Robert are all hung up on “the externals” - but I see it a different way. The way I see it - I go to Churrch to present myself before GOD - whom I consider to be the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. Therefore , I am not going to go in Blue jeans , but thats just me. That doesnt mean everyone has to do as I do. But when I see Protestants outperforming Catholics in this regard - it makes me wonder why such a deemphasis on the respect shown externally to the Lord of Lords in the Real Presense is occuring in Our Church when I would have thought the reverse. There is a tele evangelist named Joel Osteen I came across while channel Surfing. I dont watch thos shows too often - but he was preaching in what looked like a sports arena and before I turned the channel - I commented to my wife how everyone in the audience was dressed so very nice. Maybe a lot of people who come here think it unimportant. But I am 54 years old. And I remeber a time when it was important in the Catholic Church. So whats happening to us today - if it used to and it does today remain important to Prots and not to us?

Thats why I began the Thread.

Pax