Dolan: Charities not enough, government must help

  • Thread starter Thread starter MillTownCath
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MillTownCath

Guest
uscatholic.org/blog/2012/09/celebrating-st-vincent-depaul-dolan-notes-charity-not-enough

Government programs provide enormous support to poor Americans. In addition generous Americans contribute billions to charities each year. And so there is much to be grateful for.

*However, two things must be said.
  1. It is not enough. Even with the generosity of the American people, and the work of groups like the Saint Vincent de Paul Society and so many others, much more needs to be done, and not just by private charity. The government must continue to play its part as well.
  2. There are very dark clouds. Too much rhetoric in the country portrays poor people in a very negative way. At the same time, this persistent sluggish economic and slow pace of recovery does two things that hurt the poor: it does not provide sufficient jobs for poor people to earn decent living to support themselves, and it provides less resources for government to do its part for Americans in need.
Thoughts?
 
uscatholic.org/blog/2012/09/celebrating-st-vincent-depaul-dolan-notes-charity-not-enough

Government programs provide enormous support to poor Americans. In addition generous Americans contribute billions to charities each year. And so there is much to be grateful for.

*However, two things must be said.
  1. It is not enough. Even with the generosity of the American people, and the work of groups like the Saint Vincent de Paul Society and so many others, much more needs to be done, and not just by private charity. The government must continue to play its part as well.
  2. There are very dark clouds. Too much rhetoric in the country portrays poor people in a very negative way. At the same time, this persistent sluggish economic and slow pace of recovery does two things that hurt the poor: it does not provide sufficient jobs for poor people to earn decent living to support themselves, and it provides less resources for government to do its part for Americans in need.
Thoughts?
This is OBVIOUS. Anyone who disagrees doesn’t know anyone that lives off the government or doesn’t care about them. And these aren’t people that should get a job, these are people that probably work harder for minimum wage than most work for far more.

This is a comment from the article:

“Just handing out money, food,clothing, and cell phones does not give any of ‘the poor’ what they really need: a job and dignity of sustaining themselves. Generations on the dole is a travesty.”

What people don’t understand is that many people receiving assistance HAVE jobs. My wife is a manager at a fast food restaurant and if it wasn’t for the government these people working full time wouldn’t be able to feed their kids.
 
People are so confused about social justice the government cannot be involved in it, except for SHORT term emergency help. Government involvement causes inflation just the same as insurance companies do. Inflation is so bad for the poor that causes all of the necessities to go up. As in price of food, rent, gas and utility bills. Social justice is to first be performed by the family, then church or neighbor, then government. When we let government be the first option it will never help the person in need, it will actually trap them. The question is have we traveled so far down this path that there is no chance of a return to the proper order?
 
People are so confused about social justice the government cannot be involved in it, except for SHORT term emergency help. Government involvement causes inflation just the same as insurance companies do. Inflation is so bad for the poor that causes all of the necessities to go up. As in price of food, rent, gas and utility bills. Social justice is to first be performed by the family, then church or neighbor, then government. When we let government be the first option it will never help the person in need, it will actually trap them. The question is have we traveled so far down this path that there is no chance of a return to the proper order?
“This government funding that puts food in my kids mouth is just trapping me!” - Said no poor person ever

Honestly, have you ever ran this argument by someone that needs food stamps to eat?
 
I would, on this Feast of the Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, beg her intercession for peace, justice, and creative compassion.

What is the point in institutionalizing poverty? Respectfully, that is the Catholic policy; we give a man a fish. And we solicit those fish, those food donations, as groceries bought from stores where donors pay retail. RETAIL! Why no Catholic food clubs? The teamsters union, the food combines and grocery store chains luv us. May such insanity must stop now and forever.

Remember John Paul II’s dream upon visiting New York City? He watched as an old indigent woman, trailed by her hungry cat, walked through the snow past churches that were lighted, warm and beautifully decorated. John Paul II specifically mentioned seeing woman & cat walking past a Jesuit-run church where the pastor stood in the door barring her entry. No old ladies? No cultural continuity, including all that St. Joseph’s table cookery. No kitties? More rats. Lord, bless the old ladies and their cats.

We have all that brain power and cash and all we do is polish the brass, pass out fish, and beg for government welfare given to us for the poor? Go beg the non-profits, like Michael Moore’s, that owns stock in Dick Cheney’s Halliburton, and that gives grants to all Moore’s friends. “Friend” Michael Moore. Except liberals are very stingy. The government should be whining to the Catholic Church to implement more of their wondrous faith-based efficiencies. But that won’t happen because the more social turmoil, the more government workers, and the more government workers, the more government voters. But the Lord hears the cry of the poor.

Here’s one possible scenario. Dolan could ask each parish in the diocese to plant three apple trees and three pear trees to offer or distribute free to the community who cannot pay, and solicit donations for the rest. Donations would be earmarked for installing solar generators in each Catholic parish that would sell directly back to Con-Ed to pay for utility aid for the poor, with 10% of that going for medical tuition grants for nurses and doctors who will work for three years in low-income clinics.

The utilities, and grocery chains, and truckers, and apple and pear lobby would kick like the dickens and promise to withhold funds from the new million-dollar addition to the Catholic clinic that functions most as a methadone treatment center. We continue to give a man a tax-paid fish. Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, give us God’s vision for being wise as serpents and harmless as doves; and make us lovingly hear and obey God’s leading, all for His honor and glory. AMEN
 
“This government funding that puts food in my kids mouth is just trapping me!” - Said no poor person ever

Honestly, have you ever ran this argument by someone that needs food stamps to eat?
I guess you answered my question if we have gone to far down the path. It was just 30 or 40 years ago that people still knew how to garden and can food. So they could feed themselves. We now are (including me) all dependent on grocery stores and then dependent on money and that means government dependence. 😦
 
I would, on this Feast of the Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, beg her intercession for peace, justice, and creative compassion.

What is the point in institutionalizing poverty? Respectfully, that is the Catholic policy; we give a man a fish. And we solicit those fish, those food donations, as groceries bought from stores where donors pay retail. RETAIL! Why no Catholic food clubs? The teamsters union, the food combines and grocery store chains luv us. May such insanity must stop now and forever.

We have all that brain power and cash and all we do is polish the brass, pass out fish, and beg for government welfare given to us for the poor?

Here’s one possible scenario. Dolan could ask each parish in the diocese to plant three apple trees and three pear trees to offer or distribute free to the community who cannot pay, and solicit donations for the rest. Donations would be earmarked for installing solar generators in each Catholic parish that would sell directly back to Con-Ed to pay for utility aid for the poor, with 10% of that going for medical tuition grants for nurses and doctors who will work for three years in low-income clinics.

The utilities, and grocery chains, and truckers, and apple and pear lobby would kick like the dickens and promise to withhold funds from the new million-dollar addition to the Catholic clinic that functions most as a methadone treatment center. We continue to give a man a tax-paid fish. Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, give us God’s vision for being wise as serpents and harmless as doves; and make us lovingly hear and obey God’s leading, all for His honor and glory. AMEN
How about employing some of the unemployed or underemployed people/families to work part-time in Catholic (or not Catholic) Farmers’ Markets, while also feeding them from there? How about sustainable farming for communities, in which the poor who benefit from that also contribute a little work? (No, I’m not an eco-nut; I’m just agreeing that traditional retail, yes, does increase the cost of goods.) At the very least it would reduce the need for retail fresh fruits and vegetables.

I find it ironic that many U.S. Catholic international social justice projects (by Orders, for example) teach and assist the poor outside the U.S. to become independent, but a similar philosophy is not employed here in the States.

On a different thread I discussed some of the causes of contemporary unemployment, relating to a lack of adaptation to current market needs, and a lack of preparation for that. (That’s on top of under-education.) A Catholic initiative, even locally, not to mention nationally, could focus on How to Sustain Self and Community. That initiative would be funded by cash donations to Catholic causes (“Catholic Charities,” etc.) to inaugurate re-training in one or more areas (depending on available staff & resources).

There is a religious Order in my region which serves the urban poor en masse, locally. Yes, they do distribute free meals daily/weekly, but they also conduct workshops addressing various aspects of poverty, such as reversing chronic unemployment, and they provide networking, information, employment counseling, training resources.

I also think that rich and poor alike would beneift, on several levels (including spiritually), from pastors addressing from the pulpit, and the hierarchy addressing as well, the disproportionate focus on materialism and commercialism, everywhere. We don’t need nearly as much “stuff” as we all are accustomed to. And when corporations engage in their routine, auto-pilot “giving” initiatives, those are impersonal, removed, and inevitably promote retail marketing in some fashion. (Distributing back-packs to needy communities, and including in those back-packs brand-name junk food and brand-name inedible junk – knick-knacks, etc. in a transparent effort to promote those brands.)

Frankly, as an educator I can tell you that the widening educational gap between rich and poor in this richest of countries demands more educational initiatives and fewer corporate “giving” (commercial) intiiatives for more “stuff.” Instead of cash hand-outs, or hand-outs of "things,"I would prefer to see credit hand-outs for tutoring sessions at low-cost tutoring centers, and/or I would like to see some tutoring centers/programs which both serve the poor and are subsidized by Catholic Charities or some other Catholic (or combined Christian/Catholic) intiatives.

That brings up another topic: The Church could combine its charitable resources and initiatives with other Christian Churches in some of these ways above, ways which would be narrowly limited to specific projects (and thus not conflict with any doctrinal differences).

I think I see the point of the poster above, if it is that overall, the institutional Church contributes to a dysfunctional, layered structure of “charity,” which (if that’s what he means) does not promote independence and therefore tends not to liberate from poverty.

I also think that any individual or institution (NGO) which is skill-based, training-based, education-based, and information-based in its charitable efforts could be subsidized in some way or portion by the government, for those dimensions of its charity. I think such taxation, based on sustainable empowement vs. merely end-point commodities (and food is a commodity, btw), would be more universally supported by the electorate than the sink-hole approach which does not regenerate persons or economies.
 
uscatholic.org/blog/2012/09/celebrating-st-vincent-depaul-dolan-notes-charity-not-enough

Government programs provide enormous support to poor Americans. In addition generous Americans contribute billions to charities each year. And so there is much to be grateful for.

*However, two things must be said.
  1. It is not enough. Even with the generosity of the American people, and the work of groups like the Saint Vincent de Paul Society and so many others, much more needs to be done, and not just by private charity. The government must continue to play its part as well.
  2. There are very dark clouds. Too much rhetoric in the country portrays poor people in a very negative way. At the same time, this persistent sluggish economic and slow pace of recovery does two things that hurt the poor: it does not provide sufficient jobs for poor people to earn decent living to support themselves, and it provides less resources for government to do its part for Americans in need.
Thoughts?
I agree, but the gov’t programs need to be changed so they are less bureaucratic. The government does well with faith-based initiatives.
 
Elizabeth, I find your argument for under-education interesting. I was honestly thinking the opposite. I’m finally about to graduate from college after a billion years of schooling, and after I graduate I have another 4 years of dental school. So my perspective is from that of the seemingly eternal student rather than the educator.

While I could imagine that America is under-educated with respect to performance on standardized testing and whatever else the “math and science” arguments put forward (my degree is in biochemistry by the way, a pretty hefty science), I think the biggest problem, at least with higher education, is that there are way too many people here! A record number of college graduates will be facing unemployment, if they aren’t already. The value of a college degree is almost moot these days, since nearly every potential laborer has one.

Financial aid, which aims to expand the availability of educaion, while pleasing the sentiments of many, doesn’t really help anybody at the end of the day. Because of it, demand for a degree remains at insanely high levels which in turn dictates that tuition prices will not be falling any time soon. Queue the perpetual cycle of students saying, “I can’t afford college,” and the government saying “Now you can!” → more financial aid → tuition price increase → heftier financial aid → further tuition price increase → further increase in financial aid, it never ends. My undergraduate tuition, including room and board, neared $60k/year for four years. That’s insane.

And the correct response to this, wouldn’t be to call for more programs that help people pay for it, rather the correct response would be simply choosing not going to college! You honestly don’t have to! The majority of my peers, who will be graduating in a few months, will NOT be using their degree in their respective jobs anyway. A college degree, these days, allows you to get a low paying entry-level job. The same kind of job that you can get as soon as you graduate from high school. There are a few exceptions of course. Obviously if you are fortunate enough to get accepted into law school, med school, dental school, or any other professional or graduate program, your prospects of success look a lot better and you WILL use your degree in your future. But, with how competitive it currently is, there is no guarantee that you’ll be admitted into these programs any sooner than 3 months prior to college graduation. So, when you’re 18 years old and decide that you’re going to go to college to be a doctor, and decide to take out $200,000 in loans to pay for school (that’s just undergrad, med school will cost another ~$300,000), keep in mind these professional programs have somewhere around a 5% acceptance rate, and you will not know for another 4 years whether you’re in.

If I chose not to go to dental school (or am refused admission), my other options are pretty pathetic, and that’s with a degree in biochemistry, not art history, or business, or home economics. My other options: I can use my degree and work for a private company and make $30k/year and maybe have my college tuition paid off by the time I’m 65, or I can get a job in a completely unrelated field making the same salary, using absolutely none of my college education, or (what I actually plan on doing should dental school fail) join the military.

I just think people need to drop the whole “get an education,” sentiment, and that’s coming from somebody who has succeeded through some of the most rigorous and advanced education available. The system is literally breaking, and it’s impact on the welfare of laborers is tremendous. It is, most of the time, NOT economic to go to college. We only advocate it out of philosophical value, because we think it is a good thing for people to be educated, because we think it is somehow more fair and ideal if everyone goes to college. It is purely a value judgement, that is the only reason our culture is telling people to go to college. But I will tell you, if less people go to college, those who don’t go to college will NOT have $100k+ in student loans, and they’ll have 4 extra years of work experience. Those who do go to college will actually be able to use their degrees for jobs that the degree was geared towards since those positions will finally be in demand again.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, if people stopped going to college in droves, I can promise you the divorce rates will fall. I can’t tell you how many people are putting off marriage because of the burden of education. What else does that lead to? Pre-marital sex, laughably omnipresent on every college campus. Good luck having a successful marriage when either or both partners have such a robust sexual history.

Quite honestly, there is very little good that arises from going to college. You really, really, really, really have to play your cards right in order for any success to come out of the whole experience in this generation. The dismal prospects of success are one thing, but the corruption of the souls of young men and women that occurs here is down right evil, as is the destruction of their innocence.

And I’m somehow trying to figure out how to marry my girlfriend of 7 years, whose parents are broke and unable to pay for a wedding. I’ll tell you what, if I have a daughter, I’m not saving up for her college education. Instead, I’m saving up for a wedding and a house to give to her and her husband. That’s how it used to be. It’s a much better investment, even with the lousy housing market. In a few months my girlfriend will be given a degree that cost her parents $200,000. They could have bought her a house for the same price as this piece of paper. She wants to have kids, so we’ll see how much of this degree she ends up using anyway. When all is said and done, a house would be worth far more than this piece of paper, and our souls wouldn’t be so black and saturated with sin.
 
FaithBuild,
You are mixing an awful lot of issues and ideas here:

student loans
medical student loans
admissions rates to professional schools
students whose higher education is ill-defined
a segment of students for whom a traditional 4-year degree (B.A., B.S.) might not be, or is not, the best choice

But those are not the subjects of this thread.

The subject of this thread relates to the underclass of impoverished people, who, if they were offered free dental school and a guaranteed job at graduation, would have insufficient literacy, insufficient critical thinking skills, insufficient analytical skills, insufficient mathematical reasoning, and insufficient arithmetical skills to manage the task of dentistry. There is a crisis of functional literacy in this society, and that crisis persists not in the middle class or upper classes but predominantly in the poor classes of which Dolan spoke.

I don’t think I mentioned a 4-year degree in my post, did I? Did I mention, further, a professional certificate? No. Nor did Cardinal Dolan (= subject of thread).

As to the nostalgic fantasy that a father can buy his daughter & son-in-law a house, that worked in a previous landed class, when housing was stable & predictable. (People could become landed, and other people were born into land, i.e., wealth.) Most middle-class two-income earners – degrees or not – struggle to maintain a mortgage on a house (or even rent). So they are hardly in a position to provide the equivalent of a generous dowry of real property.

Again, none of that is the subject of this thread, which is the Catholic mandate of social justice as it applies to the poor, and Cardinal Dolan’s comments about a governmental role in that assistance. Normally that means the chronically or exceptionally poor, which 98% of the time also means insufficient education. I would know. It’s my field.

If a person can’t read or write adequately, nor express himself coherently in an interview (with a modest educated vocabulary), such a person will not be hired for anything but non-speaking, non-writing jobs, which pay horribly, and for which there is limited demand.

Please read the poster epan’s comments on one of the World News threads from a few days ago. He discussed the current economy. I replied to that. That would be a fuller explanation than trying to re-explain it here.

But in any case, dental school debt is not the subject of the thread. 🤷
 
People are so confused about social justice the government cannot be involved in it, except for SHORT term emergency help. Government involvement causes inflation just the same as insurance companies do. Inflation is so bad for the poor that causes all of the necessities to go up. As in price of food, rent, gas and utility bills. Social justice is to first be performed by the family, then church or neighbor, then government. When we let government be the first option it will never help the person in need, it will actually trap them. The question is have we traveled so far down this path that there is no chance of a return to the proper order?
I agree with you, Kirk, on the basic principle here.

About all these press releases and statements, I really think all this is political, about the HHS mandate. And that’s a big muddled mess too. I have no idea what this statement is supposed to endorse exactly.

Yes, there are poor people. There always have been and always will be. Christ himself said that.

Yes, the Democrat party double-crossed the USCCB. I reserve my opinion on that. But it’s a documented fact.

Yes, the fact that the Democrat party double-crossed the USCCB means that the USCCB is between a rock and a hard place. Hmmmm. Imagine that.

Yes, some people don’t want to vote for Romney, but that makes them go "WAAAAAH. I reserve my opinion on that.

But the bottom line is that if Obama wins, they’re still double-crossed. If Romney wins, they might manage to salvage some of this. We will see how it turns out.

Anything else?
 
CAUTION: This isn’t a press release by a Catholic newspaper and it isn’t a press release from Cardinal Dolan. This is a short “article”–and I use the term lightly–in US Catholic, which is a leftist magazine.
All the same, it consists mostly of a quote from +Dolan, which I would assume is true and in context, and worthy of discussion here.
 
All the same, it consists mostly of a quote from +Dolan, which I would assume is true and in context, and worthy of discussion here.
You just want to be careful about:
  1. The text that’s not his.
  2. The fact that it’s been cherry-picked out of a much larger document which probably has context you’re not seeing.
 
I’d argue that the government is incapable of dealing with poverty. “The War on Poverty” was declared generations ago and has failed.
 
You just want to be careful about:
  1. The text that’s not his.
  2. The fact that it’s been cherry-picked out of a much larger document which probably has context you’re not seeing.
I see nothing wrong at all in “leaning left” when those so-called “left-wing” values are the very values that are held dear by the social teaching of the Catholic Church. It is incorrect for Catholics to swallow everything the conservatives have to offer, just as it is incorrect for us to support everything liberals do. Properly formed Catholic values are somewhere in-between, and +Dolan is rightly pointing that out.

This article is true and correct in calling us to reach out to the poor. The burden is on you to prove where this runs afoul of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
 
I see nothing wrong at all in “leaning left” when those so-called “left-wing” values are the very values that are held dear by the social teaching of the Catholic Church. It is incorrect for Catholics to swallow everything the conservatives have to offer, just as it is incorrect for us to support everything liberals do. Properly formed Catholic values are somewhere in-between, and +Dolan is rightly pointing that out.

This article is true and correct in calling us to reach out to the poor. The burden is on you to prove where this runs afoul of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
**The Catholic church is NOT a left-wing American organization. IT PREDATES the USA by approx 1800 YEARS. **
 
CAUTION: This isn’t a press release by a Catholic newspaper and it isn’t a press release from Cardinal Dolan. This is a short “article”–and I use the term lightly–in US Catholic, which is a leftist magazine.
Maybe this will be ok. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top