Dolan: Charities not enough, government must help

[Elizabeth502]

“left-wing” values are the very values that are held dear by the social teaching of the Catholic Church.

Wrong.

The social teaching of the Catholic Church includes, and is predicated upon, its teachings about Life issues. The Church does not “hold dear” the Extreme Left package of abortion, rampant contraception availability for teenagers, same sex “marriage,” etc. And it is, according to the Left, a package indeed.

Further, the Extreme Left’s position on social issues is limited to government aid and nothing else. In fact, they are fairly hostile to the idea of religious aid. When, for example, GWB advocated “faith-based” charitable giving with government support of that, The Left went into nuclear meltdown and its darlings in the media went ballistic, they were so horrified.

 

[Elizium23]

Wrong.

The social teaching of the Catholic Church includes, and is predicated upon, its teachings about Life issues. The Church does not “hold dear” the Extreme Left package of abortion, rampant contraception availability for teenagers, same sex “marriage,” etc. And it is, according to the Left, a package indeed.

Further, the Extreme Left’s position on social issues is limited to government aid and nothing else. In fact, they are fairly hostile to the idea of religious aid. When, for example, GWB advocated “faith-based” charitable giving with government support of that, The Left went into nuclear meltdown and its darlings in the media went ballistic, they were so horrified.

The current thread is about social issues such as helping the poor (Social Security, welfare, Medicare, Medicaid) and feeding the hungry (Food Stamps) and I’ll also throw in immigration reform as a third area in which conservatives would rather throw the less fortunate to the dogs than retain programs to aid them. The USCCB has stressed its support for programs time and again that would never make it through a right-wing platform or agenda. True, we cannot accept the package deal offered with the poison of abortion, contraception, and same-sex “marriage”, but it is also wrong to reject the things that I listed first. Those are values which the Church truly holds dear. Corporal works of mercy, out of the very mouth of Jesus.

Neither of you can tell me that the Church is a right-wing organization. It very clearly supports neither polarized opposite of the United States political landscape at the current time. We as Americans must support both sides if the true agenda of the Catholic Church is to succeed. We certainly must elect pro-life politicians who will fight abortion. But we must also elect politicians and support programs that will work to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and take pity on the immigrants who are just trying to make a living.

Partisanship must be avoided at all costs by faithful Catholics. We cannot allow any one party to begin dictating to us how to live our faith. We must be sensitive to the needs of all Americans and responsive to the teachings of the Church on all points within the political spectrum. The Left enjoyed favor from faithful Catholics for many decades until it introduced intrinsic evils into its platform and many Catholics were led astray by clinging to left-wing values. Exactly the same thing can happen to the right wing if we are not careful.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The USCCB has stressed its support for programs time and again that would never make it through a right-wing platform or agenda. …Those are values which the Church truly holds dear. Corporal works of mercy, out of the very mouth of Jesus.

The USCCB has issued warnings about excluding government aid from the poor as one instrument of social justice, but has NEVER restricted its collective positions on social justice to the responsibility of the U.S.Govenment.

Jesus issued commands regarding the corporal works of mercy to individuals, not to corporate bodies. If there were no government, Christians would nevertheless be held to Jesus’ standard of giving to the poor, which I maintain, as I have on another thread, does not necessarily include all people who now receive government assistance, nor is it limited to those receiving government assistance. Government does not replace individual responsibility. Government is often insufficient, ineffective, and inefficient in its “distribution of aid” to the poor – but most especially to that category of poverty to which Jesus referred. Further, government waste accounts for negligence to the truly poor in various ways (by diversion, by fraud, by inappropriate decision-making, by complexity, and much else).

 

[Elizabeth502]

Neither of you can tell me that the Church is a right-wing organization.

Who the heck is “neither of you?” Second, you are constructing a straw man that I want no part of. You can stop it now. Thank you.

Partisanship must be avoided at all costs by faithful Catholics.

Then stop engaging in it. You are the one intiating the concept of polarization, not to mention stereotyping responses on this thread.

 

[Elizium23]

CAUTION: This isn’t a press release by a Catholic newspaper and it isn’t a press release from Cardinal Dolan. This is a short “article”–and I use the term lightly–in US Catholic, which is a leftist magazine.

 

[JIB]

We as Americans must support both sides if the true agenda of the Catholic Church is to succeed

I disagree. We ought not to support either side. Looking for political solutions will lead to disappointment.

But we must also elect politicians and support programs that will work to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and take pity on the immigrants who are just trying to make a living.

I disagree. My experience and study of these issues leads me to believe the government is incapable of dealing with poverty by using current methods. More money has been spent on the war on poverty than every other war the US has fought combined three times over yet poverty is still around us by the government’s own admission.

 

[Bill_7154]

uscatholic.org/blog/2012/09/celebrating-st-vincent-depaul-dolan-notes-charity-not-enough

Government programs provide enormous support to poor Americans. In addition generous Americans contribute billions to charities each year. And so there is much to be grateful for.

*However, two things must be said.

1. It is not enough. Even with the generosity of the American people, and the work of groups like the Saint Vincent de Paul Society and so many others, much more needs to be done, and not just by private charity. The government must continue to play its part as well.
2. There are very dark clouds. Too much rhetoric in the country portrays poor people in a very negative way. At the same time, this persistent sluggish economic and slow pace of recovery does two things that hurt the poor: it does not provide sufficient jobs for poor people to earn decent living to support themselves, and it provides less resources for government to do its part for Americans in need.

Thoughts?

Back before welfare existed they has soup kitchens to feed people. However they had stipulations put on those that wanted a meal. Able bodied men needed to ‘chop wood or themselves and a widdow’ in order to get fed (and get the widdow fed). Now it’s handouts without expectations. So people develop additudes of entitlement. And I don’t blame them. What do you expect from people who are shown the way to entitlement programs and told “you are entitled to this”?

But things don’t need to be this way. And government does a poor job at giving poeple a hand UP and gives too many hand outs too frequently to too many people for too long. Entitlement programs need to be examined for the benefit of the recipients and those that contribute via taxes both. Teach a man to fish and all that.

I think we need more teaching men to fish and less handing out men fish day after day, month after month, year after year. This creates dependency and makes them loose skills they previously had. It changes their mindset to one that is unfocused, to one that is different than those of us who have jobs and perform dozens and dozens of different skills as a routine part of our jobs. (organized thinking, focus, hygiene, cooperation, manners, problem solving, etc, etc, etc.) Watching Jerry Springer all day or hanging out all day with your mind wandering this way and that and you become worse off than you would be if you were in some sort of work in exchange for benefits program, they could easily be tailored to people’s skill levels and degree of impairment. Some might only be able to work on self care skills like learning and practicing to do their own laundry and practicing and learning to cook. Others could baby sit for other welfare recipients so they could go to school, and then someone else could babysit for them so they could go to school.

There are plenty of options and they are all, IMO, better than entitlement programs.

I work with mentally ill adults who supposedly, signed off by a doctor, are not able to work full time. I’ll tell you what, if the government came up with a program where any of these poeple who took and kept a full time job at McDonalds or Walmart, etc… they would literally be BEATING DOWN THE DOORS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY. Only a small minority would be too impaired to give it a try. And MANY would succeed. But since they are paid like 25K tax free, why bother?

 

[Bill_7154]

People are so confused about social justice the government cannot be involved in it, except for SHORT term emergency help. Government involvement causes inflation just the same as insurance companies do. Inflation is so bad for the poor that causes all of the necessities to go up. As in price of food, rent, gas and utility bills. Social justice is to first be performed by the family, then church or neighbor, then government. When we let government be the first option it will never help the person in need, it will actually trap them. The question is have we traveled so far down this path that there is no chance of a return to the proper order?

As long as those in power in the gov’t keep having their say we most certainly have. Gov’t isn’t going to change anything unless it is forced to.

 

[Bill_7154]

“This government funding that puts food in my kids mouth is just trapping me!” - Said no poor person ever

Honestly, have you ever ran this argument by someone that needs food stamps to eat?

I"ve lived in a homeless shelter and experienced how poeple get ‘trapped’ there first hand. People who grew up in familes where one or both parents worked their entire life and the family was stable are much less likely to be trapped.

But for all those who grew up abused and neglected, grew up in foster homes or other state institutions, living in a homeless shelter is not such a bad thing when compared to the way you might perceive living in one. So yes, they do trap a lot of poeple. And generational welfare is further proof that it is a ‘trap’.

I’d love to see the stat’s on familes who lived solely off of the taxes of others for 10 years or more and then the % of their children who do the same thing… compared to say…

a family who after having one or more working spouse loose their job and fall on bad times and wind up on weflare of one form or another for 2 years or less and the % of those chilren who wind up on welfare for 10 years or more…

I don’t have the stat’s, but it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out what I’m getting at and the big differences between the 2 situations.

 

[Elizium23]

I disagree. We ought not to support either side. Looking for political solutions will lead to disappointment.

The Church disagrees with you. As Catholic laity, it is our duty to exercise our civic rights such as the right to vote. Did you not notice the inception of this thread, which is Timothy Cardinal Dolan calling for political solutions? Ignore the USA’s top Church official at your own peril.

I disagree. My experience and study of these issues leads me to believe the government is incapable of dealing with poverty by using current methods. More money has been spent on the war on poverty than every other war the US has fought combined three times over yet poverty is still around us by the government’s own admission.

And if you keep insisting on electing right-wing politicians who would rather spend money on actual wars rather than real solutions for the poor, then that is all you will get - the government you deserve.

 

[JIB]

The Church disagrees with you. As Catholic laity, it is our duty to exercise our civic rights such as the right to vote. Did you not notice the inception of this thread, which is Timothy Cardinal Dolan calling for political solutions? Ignore the USA’s top Church official at your own peril.

And if you keep insisting on electing right-wing politicians who would rather spend money on actual wars rather than real solutions for the poor, then that is all you will get - the government you deserve.

With all due respect to Cardinal Dolan I am under no obligation as a Catholic to vote for anyone. Voting for president is a gigantic waste of time for nearly everyone. My state will vote for Romney no matter what. Unless the results come down to one vote it’s immaterial what I do. Not voting is a practical response to our political system. Voting on the individual level has as much impact as my choice not to buy tomatoes has on the price of tomatoes nationwide - none.

As a Catholic I can’t in good conscience vote for Obama due to his support for abortion. I also cannot support Romney due to his support for unjust wars. Voting for a third party might make me feel good since I won’t be endorsing evil, but I’ve decided it’s not a good use of my time to go through the hassle of voting.

You stated I insist on electing right wing politicians. Do you have *any *evidence that I insist on electing right wing politicians or are you simply making things up?

 

[iloveangels]

Very good. Neither is it a right-wing organization.

Correct. The Church transcends American politics entirely. It’s bigger and older than we are.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

**Neither of you can tell me that the Church is a right-wing organization.
**Partisanship must be avoided at all costs by faithful Catholics. We cannot allow any one party to begin dictating to us how to live our faith. We must be sensitive to the needs of all Americans and responsive to the teachings of the Church on all points within the political spectrum. The Left enjoyed favor from faithful Catholics for many decades until it introduced intrinsic evils into its platform and many Catholics were led astray by clinging to left-wing values. Exactly the same thing can happen to the right wing if we are not careful.

Another reason the American Left lost faithful Catholics’ favor was because it stopped actually caring about the poor around the same time it started supporting intrinsic evils.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Correct. The Church transcends American politics entirely. It’s bigger and older than we are.

It’s too conservative for conservatism in America.

 

[iloveangels]

Try telling that to Democratic Underground.

Another reason the American Left lost faithful Catholics’ favor was because it stopped actually caring about the poor around the same time it started supporting intrinsic evils.

NO. The story is much older than that.

Most Catholics are 19th & 20th century immigrants, except for a minority found in the South. When they came into the country, their votes were cultivated by the Democrat party, particularly in the Northeastern part of the country. To this day, this is why they are stronger there than in the west. Catholics usually voted Democrat for this reason. It was expected. There were alliances between Catholic figures and the Democrat party and Democrats did things for Catholics in those days.

However, as Catholics moved into the mainstream in the 60s and out of the Catholic ghettos of the past, they became more like the mainstream, and felt more free to analyze questions for themselves. This is because they were more likely to have non-Catholics as their colleagues and live in non-Catholic neighborhoods with non-Catholic expectations. The trauma of Vatican II, no matter how you view that theologically, contributed to this effect also because it loosened the Catholic community. You no longer saw other Catholics during the week, usually. Also, the Democrat party moved away from the Church and decided that we’d vote for them forever, even if they treated us like ****, because we’d been so reliable in the past. They still take us for granted.

A lot of time has passed since most Catholics have been immigrants. The personal bonds and expectations of fairness no longer exist. Catholics are now much more mainstream and act like it. In fact, now, Catholics are much more like the general population than they are like each other. This is why there is no longer an identifiable Catholic bloc in American politics. If you poll Catholics, our demographics are very much like the demographics of the general population. Catholic identity is a minor factor.

BTW, the Reagan presidency was crucial for this too. He was a very powerful figure in the breakup of the Catholic vote. Catholics learned that it was perfectly all right to vote for a non-Democrat and it could be beneficial to Catholics to do so. That’s still the case. In fact, it’s even more the case now, if you want to know the truth. The Democrats are simultaneously persecuting us and taking us for granted. Many Catholics are aware of this now.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

NO. The story is much older than that.

Most Catholics are 19th & 20th century immigrants, except for a minority found in the South. When they came into the country, their votes were cultivated by the Democrat party, particularly in the Northeastern part of the country. To this day, this is why they are stronger there than in the west. Catholics usually voted Democrat for this reason. It was expected. There were alliances between Catholic figures and the Democrat party and Democrats did things for Catholics in those days.

However, as Catholics moved into the mainstream in the 60s and out of the Catholic ghettos of the past, they became more like the mainstream, and felt more free to analyze questions for themselves. This is because they were more likely to have non-Catholics as their colleagues and live in non-Catholic neighborhoods with non-Catholic expectations. The trauma of Vatican II, no matter how you view that theologically, contributed to this effect also because it loosened the Catholic community. You no longer saw other Catholics during the week, usually. Also, the Democrat party moved away from the Church and decided that we’d vote for them forever, even if they treated us like ****, because we’d been so reliable in the past. They still take us for granted.

A lot of time has passed since most Catholics have been immigrants. The personal bonds and expectations of fairness no longer exist. Catholics are now much more mainstream and act like it. In fact, now, Catholics are much more like the general population than they are like each other. This is why there is no longer an identifiable Catholic bloc in American politics. If you poll Catholics, our demographics are very much like the demographics of the general population. Catholic identity is a minor factor.

BTW, the Reagan presidency was crucial for this too. He was a very powerful figure in the breakup of the Catholic vote. Catholics learned that it was perfectly all right to vote for a non-Democrat and it could be beneficial to Catholics to do so. That’s still the case. In fact, it’s even more the case now, if you want to know the truth. The Democrats are simultaneously persecuting us and taking us for granted. Many Catholics are aware of this now.

Not practicing Catholics. Practicing Catholics are much more likely to be Republican than the general population.

 

[iloveangels]

The Church disagrees with you. As Catholic laity, it is our duty to exercise our civic rights such as the right to vote. Did you not notice the inception of this thread, which is Timothy Cardinal Dolan calling for political solutions? Ignore the USA’s top Church official at your own peril.

We are to exercise our votes as citizens. We are not to live as though politics was our religion. We already have a religion, Catholicism.

And if you keep insisting on electing right-wing politicians who would rather spend money on actual wars rather than real solutions for the poor, then that is all you will get - the government you deserve.

This is a cluster of ridiculous outdated stereotypes. The leaders of the Democrat party are very, very rich people. All politicians are rich. This is the 21st century, not the 18th.

 

[iloveangels]

Not practicing Catholics. Practicing Catholics are much more likely to be Republican than the general population.

Now, yes. This is because they can see the duplicity involved in saying one thing and doing another.

It doesn’t make sense to adhere to a party line when that party line demands that we alienate ourselves from the core of our religious practice, even if at one time long ago it didn’t. This is what is in play with practicing Catholics. They can see the differences and they recognize that things have changed because they’re paying attention to what the Church actually says.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It doesn’t make sense to adhere to a party line when that party line demands that we alienate ourselves from the core of our religious practice, even if at one time long ago it didn’t. This is what is in play with practicing Catholics. They can see the differences and they recognize that things have changed because they’re paying attention to what the Church actually says.

There was a discussion recently here on how radically the Democratic Party has changed from being a party closely aligned with Catholic values to becoming a party much more oppositional to those values. Anyone who thinks that the current Democratic Party represents, in large part, Roman Catholic Christian values is not looking at recent history whatsoever.

 

[iloveangels]

There was a discussion recently here on how radically the Democratic Party has changed from being a party closely aligned with Catholic values to becoming a party much more oppositional to those values. Anyone who thinks that the current Democratic Party represents, in large part, Roman Catholic Christian values is not looking at recent history whatsoever.

Absolutely correct. And it’s a huge mistake to keep trying to re-align with them. They cannot be allowed to take us for granted and then persecute us at the same time. It’s wrong, and it’s dangerous.

But it’s really, really hard for some of the old-school types to get their heads wrapped around. Stereotypes, even old goofy stereotypes, are tough to get rid of.