Dominican or Franciscan?

[Odell]

What is your experience with these two orders? I have always loved the vow to poverty with the Franciscan order. And the ones I know seem to be well educated. However I think I have found my spiritual adviser to be a Dominican Priest. The Dominicans I know are very Orthodox! The priest at my parish not so much. Keeping this as charitable as possible what do you like or dislike regarding both orders?

 

[GloriousOrder]

I’m not at all convinced by the Franciscan focus on poverty. They make it a goal, rather than the end that it often should be. St. Francis, their holy founder, emphasised that preaching should be more by action than by word. Our works are the great joy of Christ, done in faith and with charity. St. Dominic emphasised true doctrinal preaching specifically to preserve the Body against heresy. The first friars very nicely filled in two gaps that the Church required shoring-up in!

Dominicans are the best, though.

 

[athenasius]

I love franciscans! I’m not saying that Dominicans are bad, but I have grown deeply fond of St. Francis and his order. One of my favorite religiouse orders is the franciscan friars of the renewal founded by Fr. Benedict Grochiel. This order helps many poor people in large cities and third world countries. Franciscans are also very orthodox but this is a general statement that varies from order to order.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I attend a Dominican parish (with a very traditional style - we have an altar rail and kneel to receive Communion). The Priory has several priests, and I’ve seen many come and go over the years as their assignments change.

Nearly all have exhibited all the best qualities which you would expect to find in a person who has accepted a Religious vocation. They are all highly intelligent and profoundly spiritual, but very approachable. Confession is heard daily (by two priests), and there are always long lines. These are Dominicans of the Western Provence.

However, I know someone who underwent a year of discernment and formation in the Southern Dominican Provence (which joins up with another Provence for formation). He assures me that the Western Provence Dominicans are not representative of other Provences (though, of course, these Provences are not completely devoid of devout and orthodox friars).

I think the situation is reversed for Franciscans. It seems that orthodoxy and attention to the Rule of Life is strong in the Eastern part of the Country (after all, Franciscan University is one of the finest schools in the world). These traits are not as prevalent in the Franciscan parishes that I have visited in the Northwest.

Orders should be the same everywhere. They have the same founder, the same philosophy, and the same Rule of Life - there should be no difference between Western and Eastern Dominicans. But this does not seem to be the case in reality. So where you live probably makes a big difference.

 

[Odell]

I attend a Dominican parish (with a very traditional style - we have an altar rail and kneel to receive Communion). The Priory has several priests, and I’ve seen many come and go over the years as their assignments change.

Nearly all have exhibited all the best qualities which you would expect to find in a person who has accepted a Religious vocation. They are all highly intelligent and profoundly spiritual, but very approachable. Confession is heard daily (by two priests), and there are always long lines. These are Dominicans of the Western Provence.

However, I know someone who underwent a year of discernment and formation in the Southern Dominican Provence (which joins up with another Provence for formation). He assures me that the Western Provence Dominicans are not representative of other Provences (though, of course, these Provences are not completely devoid of devout and orthodox friars).

I think the situation is reversed for Franciscans. It seems that orthodoxy and attention to the Rule of Life is strong in the Eastern part of the Country (after all, Franciscan University is one of the finest schools in the world). These traits are not as prevalent in the Franciscan parishes that I have visited in the Northwest.

Orders should be the same everywhere. They have the same founder, the same philosophy, and the same Rule of Life - there should be no difference between Western and Eastern Dominicans. But this does not seem to be the case in reality. So where you live probably makes a big difference.

This has been my experience

 

[athenasius]

I attend a Dominican parish (with a very traditional style - we have an altar rail and kneel to receive Communion). The Priory has several priests, and I’ve seen many come and go over the years as their assignments change.

Nearly all have exhibited all the best qualities which you would expect to find in a person who has accepted a Religious vocation. They are all highly intelligent and profoundly spiritual, but very approachable. Confession is heard daily (by two priests), and there are always long lines. These are Dominicans of the Western Provence.

However, I know someone who underwent a year of discernment and formation in the Southern Dominican Provence (which joins up with another Provence for formation). He assures me that the Western Provence Dominicans are not representative of other Provences (though, of course, these Provences are not completely devoid of devout and orthodox friars).

I think the situation is reversed for Franciscans. It seems that orthodoxy and attention to the Rule of Life is strong in the Eastern part of the Country (after all, Franciscan University is one of the finest schools in the world). These traits are not as prevalent in the Franciscan parishes that I have visited in the Northwest.

Orders should be the same everywhere. They have the same founder, the same philosophy, and the same Rule of Life - there should be no difference between Western and Eastern Dominicans. But this does not seem to be the case in reality. So where you live probably makes a big difference.

I don’t doubt this, but how much experiance have you ever actually had with franciscans?

 

[Iggy66]

When Christendom ruled in Europe the battles emerged between Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines (the ‘Name of the Rose’ was an international best-seller based on such bitter rivalries). Indeed the Jesuits were so threatening to all that they were banned.

Perhaps we should learn to put such rivalries behind us?

Learn what you can from the Dominicans, and learn what you can from the Franciscans. And then go and learn some more.

Just a thought.

 

[athenasius]

When Christendom ruled in Europe the battles emerged between Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines (the ‘Name of the Rose’ was an international best-seller based on such bitter rivalries). Indeed the Jesuits were so threatening to all that they were banned.

Perhaps we should learn to put such rivalries behind us?

Learn what you can from the Dominicans, and learn what you can from the Franciscans. And then go and learn some more.

Just a thought.

good point.

 

[puzzleannie]

What is your experience with these two orders? I

I was educated by Dominicans so my bias will always be in their favor. Had there been a branch of Tertiaries here I would probably be one, instead of an Oblate.

 

[Odell]

When Christendom ruled in Europe the battles emerged between Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines (the ‘Name of the Rose’ was an international best-seller based on such bitter rivalries). Indeed the Jesuits were so threatening to all that they were banned.

Perhaps we should learn to put such rivalries behind us?

Learn what you can from the Dominicans, and learn what you can from the Franciscans. And then go and learn some more.

Just a thought.

I didn’t realze there had been bitter rivalries.

 

[patrick457]

I didn’t realze there had been bitter rivalries.

Oh, wait till you hear the one about the debates about whether Mary was actually immaculately conceived or not.

To answer the question: I am quite a fan of St. Francis, but the fact that the Dominicans have (or at least, used to have) a liturgical rite of their own makes me lean slightly more toward the Order of Preachers.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I don’t doubt this, but how much experiance have you ever actually had with franciscans?

A bit. I regularly attended a Fransiscan Parish when I lived on the East Coast. My brother, EricFilmer (a regular participant in this forum) has also visited a number of Eastern Fransiscan Parishes and communities and has been extremely impressed (and he is not easily impressed). He once visited a Fransiscan community (which practiced the primitive Rule), and he was invited to observe one of their regular meetings where they discuss what ELSE they might be able to give up. They had already donated their refrigerator to charity, because they figured that a cool dark place in their basement should suffice to keep them from getting FOOD POISONING (think twice before you accept a ham sandwich with mayo from these guys). The topic of the discussion in the meeting that Eric attended was whether they really needed a PHONE.

When I moved to Oregon, I checked out the few Fransiscan Parishes that were in my area. They did not resemble the Parishes I had attended back East, or the Parishes and communities that my brother had told me about. There seemed to be an “environmentalist” slant to their preaching. Of course, St. Francis is recognized as a “friend of nature” (his images are often depicted including various forms of plants and wildlife, including his bronze statue at “The Grotto” shrine which is a short distance from my home), and the Pacific Northwest is the Vatican of the environmental movement. And we are all called to be good stewards of the earth. But I found that these teachings overshadowed many other aspects of Catholic teaching, at least among the few Fransiscan Parishes that I visited. Every homily was (somehow) also an environmental homily. Maybe this aspect was only mentioned in regard to a broader message - but it was always mentioned. Extrapolated collectively, environmental “doctrine” was the most prevalent teaching.

Knowing (from a very informed and reliable source) that Dominican spirituality varies among different provinces, I have no reason to believe that the situation is not different for Fransiscans (or any other Order). Although my personal experience (which is all I ever claimed to know) is very limited, it is very dissimilar to anything that I (or my brother) experienced in the Eastern United States.

FWIW, my brother is a huge fan of St. Francis (and he is personally acquainted with Dr. Scott Hann, currently a professor at Fransiscan University, whom he once drove to an airport two hours away). He is so much a fan of St. Francis that I made a gift to him for a VERY special occasion - the gift was the three postage stamps (in mint condition) which have been issued by the Vatican Post Office commemorating St. Francis, and these stamps were professionally matted and framed. I taunted him with hints about the gift, such as “it is perfectly legal to own, but absolutely illegal to manufacture in the United States.”

 

[EricFilmer]

My brother, EricFilmer (a regular participant in this forum) has also visited a number of Eastern Fransiscan Parishes and communities and has been extremely impressed (and he is not easily impressed). He once visited a Fransiscan community (which practiced the primitive Rule), and he was invited to observe one of their regular meetings where they discuss what ELSE they might be able to give up. They had already donated their refrigerator to charity, because they figured that a cool dark place in their basement should suffice to keep them from getting FOOD POISONING (think twice before you accept a ham sandwich with mayo from these guys). The topic of the discussion in the meeting that Eric attended was whether they really needed a PHONE.

This community was the Franciscan Friars of Primitive Observance. My understanding is that they broke away from the Friars of the Renewal in order to embrace an even stricter sense of poverty and greater contemplative lifestyles. And it should be noted that the Friars of the Renewal are certainly no slouchers in such matters! So I admire the dedication and discipline found among both the Friars of Primitive Observance and the Friars of the Renewal.

But to all those reading this post, let me clarify that whereas I visited the community of the Primitive Observance, I did not actually attend any chapter meetings, and my presence at a chapter meeting would have probably been a violation of their Rule (I was a guest, not a Franciscan, so I don’t want anyone thinking that I was granted any special privileges; I told this story to David over ten years ago, and, as we all know, details can get blurry over time). Rather, the friars informed me that whereas society considers certain material objects to be essential in modern homes, they regularly discuss with one another what is truly essential. If they conclude that something is not truly essential, out it goes. And yes, they actually gave away their refrigerator after one such discussion.

 

[Me1234]

When Christendom ruled in Europe the battles emerged between Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines (the ‘Name of the Rose’ was an international best-seller based on such bitter rivalries). Indeed the Jesuits were so threatening to all that they were banned.

Perhaps we should learn to put such rivalries behind us?

Learn what you can from the Dominicans, and learn what you can from the Franciscans. And then go and learn some more.

Just a thought.

I detected none of that when I have talked to Franciscans. The Franciscans I talked to even go back and forth visiting the Dominicans for an event at their university for priests and others in their order about every year teaching the learning ones in the other order. He didn’t seem to mind and seemed in a fine mood when he was talking about it. More like he thought it is a cool idea.