Dominican question

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Do Dominicans (or other religious orders) have a significant degree of independence from the local Bishops, and answer more or less directly to the Vatican? And are Dominicans generally orthodox and conservative?
 
Alex111 said:
Do Dominicans (or other religious orders) have a significant degree of independence from the local Bishops, and answer more or less directly to the Vatican? And are Dominicans generally orthodox and conservative?
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Alex, Dominicans answer to their local superior (provincial prior), who in turn answers to the Master General of the Order.

With regard to orthodoxy, that may be different than conservatism. But, for the most part, Dominicans are very orthodox. There were a couple of rogue groups, one being in New Orleans, that I was aware of, but I’m not sure what their status is now. (The group in New Orleans furnished us with a “nun” who dressed in street clothes, smoked cigarettes, and cussed like a sailor. She wanted the parish to cease daily Mass because it “interfered with her daily prayer life.”

On the other hand, the Pope’s personal theologian has been a Dominican since shortly after the order was founded. And I have a first cousin who’s a Dominican nun in Nashville and you can’t get any more orthodox than this group.
 
Alex111 said:
Do Dominicans (or other religious orders) have a significant degree of independence from the local Bishops, and answer more or less directly to the Vatican? And are Dominicans generally orthodox and conservative?
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No and no.
 
Dominicans, as well as other religious of Pontifical Right, are independent of the local ordinary within their own houses. (They do not “answer to the Vatican” directly, but rather to their Provincial or equivalent superior.) If, however, they are given charge of a parish, they are subject to the local ordinary for the purpose of the administration of the parish only. The Priory (or equivalent) is not.

Other than at the parish level, an Order (or any “religious institute” of Pontifical Right) is really only subject to the local ordinary when it establishes a house in a particular jurisdiction. The local ordinary must consent to its establishment (and it’s rare, if not unheard of, that a bishop would withhold consent).
 
They are not directly answerable to the pope or local bishop (though they can’t just come barging in on his turf without any permission). They have provincials who are basically the bishops for Dominicans of a whole area, like West US, Southern US, etc. As to their orthodoxy, it depends on where you live. In Latin America they are NOT orthodox or conservative. In the West and East US, as well as England, they’re generally orthodox and sometimes conservative with the liturgy (not traditional though). Everywhere else I’m a little bit suspect. But they’re better than the Franciscans at least.

A Franciscan and Jesuit were debating which order was the greatest. So, they decided to ask for a sign from God. This is what they received falling down from heaven:
Code: 
My sons,

Please stop bickering about such trivial matters,

Sincerely,
God, O.P.
 
There is a Dominican Priory in my area and I used to be member of the parish about 35 years ago. I attended Mass there this Summer for a few weeks and found that, except for the priests and brothers, things had changed very little, although they have a new altar for the OF Mass, which is what they say. They still have the Communion rail and everybody kneels for Communion, although you can receive either in the hand or on the tongue, and they only distribute the host. They do not use EMHC’s except for one who brings Communion to the handicapped in the church. The priest and a brother, who is a Deacon distribute Communion at the altar rail. The Deacon, when assisting at Mass wears a Dalmatic. Only boys serve at the altar, and I never saw a tennis shoe on them. The use the Sanctus bells, and only have organ music. They will sing parts of the Mass, but that depends on the priest. The interior of the church has not been touched as far as decoration–no renovation except upkeep, and they now have a Divine Mercy picture in the Church, and the Tabernacle is where the old altar used to be. It is a very beautiful old church. The Church is silent before Mass–no one talks. A very reverent atmosphere. The homilies are rather long, but of course they are the OP. This is the Province of St. Joseph.

Does that sound traditional enough?
 
CB_Catholic said:
There is a Dominican Priory in my area and I used to be member of the parish about 35 years ago. I attended Mass there this Summer for a few weeks and found that, except for the priests and brothers, things had changed very little, although they have a new altar for the OF Mass, which is what they say. They still have the Communion rail and everybody kneels for Communion, although you can receive either in the hand or on the tongue, and they only distribute the host. They do not use EMHC’s except for one who brings Communion to the handicapped in the church. The priest and a brother, who is a Deacon distribute Communion at the altar rail. The Deacon, when assisting at Mass wears a Dalmatic. Only boys serve at the altar, and I never saw a tennis shoe on them. The use the Sanctus bells, and only have organ music. They will sing parts of the Mass, but that depends on the priest. The interior of the church has not been touched as far as decoration–no renovation except upkeep, and they now have a Divine Mercy picture in the Church, and the Tabernacle is where the old altar used to be. It is a very beautiful old church. The Church is silent before Mass–no one talks. A very reverent atmosphere. The homilies are rather long, but of course they are the OP. This is the Province of St. Joseph.

Does that sound traditional enough?
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Now THAT sounds like a parish I’d like to be a member of!
 
I attend a Dominican parish in England. While they are a great Order, I would be lying if I said they were 100% orthodox. The Dominicans, like all Orders, have members who are less Orthodox than they should be. I have to be honest and say that I have heard Dominicans express heretical views in favour of contraception, and female ordination. However, in the main, the Order of Preachers are a very good order.

The Order of Preachers needs orthodox men to join their ranks. They have a liberal element but there is also a very strong and vocal orthodox element. I hope and pray that the liberal dissenting Dominicans decrease and that the orthodox Dominicans increase. While they are not a traditionalist Order, I have found that many Dominicans have no objection to the EF Mass even if they do not celebrate it.
 
Thanks for the responses to my question. There’s a Dominican priory in the city I live in, that regularly uses Latin chant, has EF Dominican Rite Mass on holy days, has frequent Eucharistic adoration, and has (and actually uses) an altar rail. But then some of the priests use that awkward, pronoun-avoiding, gender-neutral language in their sermons, which is quite jarring, especially there. So it makes me wonder.
 
I don’t know about other areas, but my university’s Newman Center is run by the Dominicans. Terribly unorthodox hippie parish. I don’t know if the Dominicans there are simply worn down after years of dealing with it, or if they are complicit in it. Tons of liturgical shenanigans, and ambiguity on sanctity of life issues.

This, of course, is NOT intended to reflect on all Dominicans. While the parish has problems, and the pastor and his assistants (all Dominicans) appear not to be doing too much to fix it, I don’t know how this reflects on their personal orthodoxy.
 
In the Dominican parish that I have visited, there is basically no difference between the priests there and any diocesan priests in other parishes, in terms of their theology and how the OF Mass is celebrated.
 
I’ll answer the canonical question first, though some people have done a good job with the answer.

Any institute of Pontifical Right, be it a religious order, secular order, religious congregation, society of apostolic life, secular institute or other is not subject to the local bishop. We govern ourselves according to the specifics in our rules and constitutions.

If we undertake any diocesan ministry, we answer to the bishop regarding that ministry, because it’s his. He’s the employer and we’re the employees. If we establish our own ministry in a diocese, such as a college, hospital, shelter, etc, then the religious superior has the final word, not the local bishop. However, it is always polite to inform him of what you want to do and hear what he has to say. Even though the ministry belongs to the religious community, you’re on his turf. I like to compare it to renting an apartment. It’s your apartment, but it’s my building.

The difference is that once a bishop authorizes any community to enter his diocese, he cannot ask them to leave. This is considered suppression. Bishops do not have the power to suppress an institute of Pontifical Right, not even a secular order. Only the pope can suppress.

The chain of command can vary a little from one order to another, but this is the most common chain, from top to bottom.

pope
founder
rule
general chapter
general superior
provincial or regional chapter
provincial or regional superior
local superior
religious

Popes have never contradicted founders. What they have done is try to ensure that the community is faithful to the founder and to the needs of the Church. But they can contradict the founder. It’s never been done. Even if the pope is a great sinner and the founder a great saint, the pope trumps the founder.

To answer the question about orthodoxy, let me ask you a question. Do you have any lose canons in your family? What size is your family? The answer to that question is simple. The larger the family, the greater the chances for some lose canons. Dominican men and women number in the hundreds of thousands. Franciscans are well over one million. The Jesuits are almost 20,000 and so forth.

It’s really unrealistic to say that this order or congregation is more orthodox than the one next door. We don’t do that among ourselves. We consider it rude, unreallistic and offensive to the Holy Spirit who guides every realigious institute.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
TheDoctor said:
I may be gravely mistaken, but I believe every Catholic priest is answerable to the Pope, is he not?
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Not any more than any other Catholic. Some priests are seculars and others are consecrated religious. There are two different chains of command. Between the consecrated religiousa and the pope there is a greater distance than there is between the secular priest and the pope. The secular priest follows the same chain as the laity.

Chain of commad for consecrated religious from top to bottom

pope
founder
general chapter
superior general
proviincial chapter
provincial superior
house chapter
local superior
priest/religios

Notice that superiors come beneath the chapter. The chapter makes all laws that govern a religious community. Superiors do not make laws. They execute them.

If he’s secular the chain of command is like that of the laity.

Chain of command for secular priests, deacons, bishops and laity

pope
diocesan bishop
priest

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Not any more than any other Catholic. Some priests are seculars and others are consecrated religious. There are two different chains of command. Between the consecrated religiousa and the pope there is a greater distance than there is between the secular priest and the pope. The secular priest follows the same chain as the laity.

Chain of commad for consecrated religious from top to bottom

pope
founder
general chapter
superior general
proviincial chapter
provincial superior
house chapter
local superior
priest/religios

Notice that superiors come beneath the chapter. The chapter makes all laws that govern a religious community. Superiors do not make laws. They execute them.

If he’s secular the chain of command is like that of the laity.

Chain of command for secular priests, deacons, bishops and laity

pope
diocesan bishop
priest

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at. The post made it sound as if the Pope is completely out of the chain.
 
Sorry, didn’t intend that. Also, priests in other sui iuris Churches are answerable to the Patriarch as well, correct?
 
awatkins69 said:
Sorry, didn’t intend that. Also, priests in other sui iuris Churches are answerable to the Patriarch as well, correct?
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If they are secular priests, they ansswer to the Patriarch. That’s right. If they are consecrated priests they do not answer to the patriarch. They follow the same chain as consecrated religious in the Roman Church do.

I’ll add that most consecrated priests in the Oriental Churches are monks. The chain of command of monks is not as long.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
TheDoctor said:
Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at. The post made it sound as if the Pope is completely out of the chain.
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The pope is always at the top of the chain of command. He even trumps the founder. Though, as I have often said, this has never been done. To the best of my knowledge, no pope has ever trumped a founder. Even Fr. Marcel Marciel was not trumped by the papacy. His vision and mission for the Legionaires remains in place. His authority over them was taken away. At least, that’s how I understand it.

Let me put it this way, there are three ways for a religious community to exist:
  1. It can be a private association of the faithful, such as the Order of Poor Friars. In that case, the pope has the same authority over them as he does over any lay person.
  2. It can be a religious institute of Diocesan Right. This places the local bishop on the chain one step below the pope.
  3. It can be a religiosu institute of Pontifical Right. This takes the bishop out of the equation.
As you can see, the pope is part of the chain of command in all three forms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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