Dominicans and Franciscans

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Br. JR,

Thanks for your (as always) detailed and informative response. Be assured of my prayers for the Brothers of Life!
 
Batfink, do you know anything about the formation process that a Dominican goes through? For example, what kind of things do Dominicans study at Blackfriars? Do they study Ancient Greek, Hebrew and Latin?
First, Dominicans are obviously obsessed with study so the studying in initial formation is only a small part of a lifetime dedicated to studying and passing on the fruits of study. But since your question was on initial formation, I’ll focus on that (as a teacher one of my most-used phrases is “Answer the *** question!”).

Initial formation consists of a mixture of academic, pastoral and practical study. The last is mainly concerned with e.g. learning to cook, drive etc. On a pastoral level, there are placements in schools, prisons, university chaplaincies and so on and well as training in preaching, sometimes chanting…

However, since you’re mainly interested in the academic, I’ll finally get to the point. Most students enter as graduates, so the exact nature of the study will depend on what their background (e.g. someone with a BA in Maths won’t follow the same programme as someone with a doctorate in Theology) but nearly all do a 5 year course, usually comprising 2 years Philosophy and 3 years Theology. The most common option is the STB offered by the Angelicum, details here, but the Oxford University Theology BA is also relatively normal.

Specifically, Latin and Greek are always (as far as I know) studied. Hebrew is optional.

Happy to help with any other enquiries you have. You might like this blog by the English Dominican students.
 
Happy to help with any other enquiries you have. You might like this blog by the English Dominican students.
Thanks for answering my questions; I really appreciate it. I regularly visit the GodzDogz blog. I always enjoy reading about the lives of the students at Blackfriars and I also enjoy their sermons and reflections.
 
Thank you guys for this thread, I am discerning a call to the Dominicans/ Diocesan, I am trying to find which I am most called to.
The biggest factor for me is that I am not too crazy about spending a big chunk of my life in another country. But if it is God’s will, I will obey.
 
Thank you guys for this thread, I am discerning a call to the Dominicans/ Diocesan, I am trying to find which I am most called to.
The biggest factor for me is that I am not too crazy about spending a big chunk of my life in another country. But if it is God’s will, I will obey.
Normally, Provincial Superiors do not order friars to go to other countries. This is usually voluntary. It’s very rare. It can happen. They have the authority to do it. But that’s not the way that we usually operate. We try to ask the religious what they think about an assignment. We think about it and then we get back to the religious. Sometimes, a religious may have a very good reason for not wanting a assignment that the superior may not have foreseen.

That being said, the large orders such as the Dominicans have very large provinces. These cover larger territories than a diocese does. It can cover an entire country. In the USA the Dominican provinces are very large. You can be assigned to another state. That’s not unusual.

If you’re discerning a religious vocation you have to be open to being flexible in that regard. You may not be assigned near your home or your family.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
 
It might be you who asked them the question, but in case anyone hasn’t seen it, the English Domincan students have just published an answer to this question in their quodlibet series on their Godzdogz blog.
 
It might be you who asked them the question, but in case anyone hasn’t seen it, the English Domincan students have just published an answer to this question in their quodlibet series on their Godzdogz blog.
Thanks for the link. It is well written for someone who just wants an overview, not a detailed difference between the two orders. I think it captures the spirit of the two rather well. I particularly liked when he points out how Franciscans see poverty as an end and Dominicans as a means. Often, too many religious communties get blasted for having this or that. People do not understand that poverty as an end is really the charism of such groups as Franciscans, Missionaries of Charity, Missionaries of the Poor, Carmelties of Charity. It’s not the same for everyone across the board. Therefore, we should not expect everyone to be the same. Even among Franciscans there are differences in degrees of poverty.

The blog compares the OFM and the OP. The OFM are the second largest branch of the Franciscan family, but not the only Franciscan friars. The CFR are even more ascetical.

I liked it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Order of St. Francis (OSF)
Missionaries of the Eternal Word (MFVA)
Franciscans of the Renewal (CFR)
Franciscans of the Primitive Observance (FPO)
Franciscans of the Immaculate (FI)
Franciscans of the Eucharist (FBE)
Franciscans of Christ the King (FBCK)
Franciscans of Peace (BoP)
Franciscans of Life (OSF)
Brothers of Penance of the Third Order Regular (TOR)
Franciscans of the Atonement (SA)
Franciscans of the Holy Family (FSF)

T
The Dominican men were split only once. There is another branch of the Dominican Order. It’s very small and I’m not even sure where they are.

If you are a trad catholic, check out the Franciscans of the Immaculate. Very similar to the FPO, who are like the best Franciscans ever.
The Small Dominican group is the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer in France. Very cool.
 
Order of St. Francis (OSF)
Missionaries of the Eternal Word (MFVA)
Franciscans of the Renewal (CFR)
Franciscans of the Primitive Observance (FPO)
Franciscans of the Immaculate (FI)
Franciscans of the Eucharist (FBE)
Franciscans of Christ the King (FBCK)
Franciscans of Peace (BoP)
Franciscans of Life (OSF)
Brothers of Penance of the Third Order Regular (TOR)
Franciscans of the Atonement (SA)
Franciscans of the Holy Family (FSF)

Those are just Francisan communities of men found in the USA. Between communities of men and women we are over 100 branches of the Franciscan family of religious.

The Secular Franciscans (SFO) are the largest Franciscan order. They number over 500,000. Historians believe that they may be older than the Friars Minor. This is still under study.
Brother Jay,

A small correction. The secular Franciscans are in the process of making OFS our official initials (if you will). Our International Minister has posted a letter that states that for all official purposes, when you sign, you sign Your Name, OFS (no longer SFO). The OFS is in the process of changing stuff over now. I, for one, am thrilled. I’m in California, and I grew tired of having people ask me what I did at San Francisco International Airport :mad:😃
 
I did not know this?:eek: Why not?
Francis and Clare did not want the Divine Office or the mass chanted for various reasons.
  1. We’re mendicants, not monks.
  2. It requires bigger and more books. We’re only allowed to have the small breviary.
  3. In the monastic orders they split the community into two groups, the choir monks who chanted the office and the lay brothers who recited the Office of the Paters. Francis and Clare did not agree that priests should be held in a higher placFore or have any special recognition, privilege or rights, other than to celebrate the sacraments. We’re talking about priests in the order. There were to be only brothers, nuns and sisters. The brothers were ordained and non-ordained (still to this day). The nuns are monastic and make solemn vows. The sisters are active and make simple vows.
  4. The rule of monastic communities, to this day is that you must be able to chant in order to join. If you cannot chant, you do not have a vocation to that way of life. Christ promised Francis that his brothers and sisters would come from all over the world, from all walks of life and would multiply like the children of Abraham until the second coming. That being the case, Francis wanted to place few obstacles to joining the community.
For the Franciscan family, chanting is a novelty that resulted from Vatican II. It’s not well received by the younger friars. Those communities that use Gregorian chant have an indult to do so. The General Minister can revoke it at any time. Even the superior of the house can revoke it for his particular house. In my house, we use the EF for special occasions, when the guardian allows for it. But there is never Gregorian Chant. It’s plainchant and the hymns are the classics (ie. Immaculate Mary, Tatum Ergo, Come Holy Ghost, etc).

From the rule of St. Clare

**
CHAPTER THREE
THE DIVINE OFFICE AND FASTING,
CONFESSION AND COMMUNION

The sisters who can read shall celebrate the Divine Office according to the custom of the Friars Minor. They may have breviaries for this, but they should read it without singing. Those who, for some reasonable cause, occasionally are not able to recite their hours by reading them, may, like the other sisters, say the Our Fathers**

Does this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
  • Do not start an argument with a Dominican, ever, because YOU WILL LOSE. HARD 🙂
Haha! I want to be a Dominican nun SO BAD one day and amusingly enough, I love Catholic Apologetics! I’ve even made videos on youtube! [no advertising of personal websites in posts]
 
Francis and Clare did not want the Divine Office or the mass chanted for various reasons.
  1. We’re mendicants, not monks.
  2. It requires bigger and more books. We’re only allowed to have the small breviary.
  3. In the monastic orders they split the community into two groups, the choir monks who chanted the office and the lay brothers who recited the Office of the Paters. Francis and Clare did not agree that priests should be held in a higher placFore or have any special recognition, privilege or rights, other than to celebrate the sacraments. We’re talking about priests in the order. There were to be only brothers, nuns and sisters. The brothers were ordained and non-ordained (still to this day). The nuns are monastic and make solemn vows. The sisters are active and make simple vows.
  4. The rule of monastic communities, to this day is that you must be able to chant in order to join. If you cannot chant, you do not have a vocation to that way of life. Christ promised Francis that his brothers and sisters would come from all over the world, from all walks of life and would multiply like the children of Abraham until the second coming. That being the case, Francis wanted to place few obstacles to joining the community.
For the Franciscan family, chanting is a novelty that resulted from Vatican II. It’s not well received by the younger friars. Those communities that use Gregorian chant have an indult to do so. The General Minister can revoke it at any time. Even the superior of the house can revoke it for his particular house. In my house, we use the EF for special occasions, when the guardian allows for it. But there is never Gregorian Chant. It’s plainchant and the hymns are the classics (ie. Immaculate Mary, Tatum Ergo, Come Holy Ghost, etc).

From the rule of St. Clare

**
CHAPTER THREE
THE DIVINE OFFICE AND FASTING,
CONFESSION AND COMMUNION

The sisters who can read shall celebrate the Divine Office according to the custom of the Friars Minor. ** They may have breviaries for this, but they should read it without singing. Those who, for some reasonable cause, occasionally are not able to recite their hours by reading them, may, like the other sisters, say the Our Fathers

Does this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Grazie fratello. 🙂
 
Wow amazing how these old threads pop up - thanks again Brother.
 
Haha! I want to be a Dominican nun SO BAD one day and amusingly enough, I love Catholic Apologetics! I’ve even made videos on youtube! [no advertising of personal websites in posts]
. . . my two cents: I have rarely seen the joy and camaraderie that I saw within a group of Dominican nuns. An excellent life to be lived there, and God speed! 🙂
 
The Dominican men were split only once. There is another branch of the Dominican Order. It’s very small and I’m not even sure where they are…

…The Small Dominican group is the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer in France. Very cool.
The Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer was not and is not part of the Order of Preachers, meaning they did not split off. They were started in 1979.

While they have received permission to celebrate the traditional Dominican Rite Mass and Hours and claim Dominican Saints for their inspiration, they are not and have not been Dominicans at any time. It is my understanding that they have requested to become part of the Order of Preachers but that, while they do have some interaction with individual friars, this request has not been acted upon in any meaningful way.

From their own website:
Les autorités de l’Ordre des Prêcheurs (dont nous ne dépendons pas canoniquement) ont plutôt mal pris notre reconnaissance par la hiérarchie. Un dialogue a été noué pour étudier la possibilité d’entrer dans la Famille dominicaine. Cette formule reconnaîtrait notre parenté, sans nuire à l’autonomie juridique et au charisme spécifique. Il faudra du temps pour que les choses aboutissent, en particulier pour que notre spécificité liturgique soit ressentie comme légitime. Nous avons déjà reçu d’un Maître de l’Ordre la participation aux biens spirituels de l’Ordre. Les contacts sont nombreux avec des pères de diverses provinces. Ce sont des dominicains qui prêchent habituellement nos retraites de communauté. Des Pères nous ont dit retrouver dans notre Couvent la vie qu’ils avaient connue avant la crise.
Roughly Translated via Systranet.com:
The authorities about the Preachers (on which we do not depend canonically) rather badly took our recognition by the hierarchy. A dialog was tied to study the possibility of entering the Dominican Family. This formula recognizes our relationship, without harming legal autonomy and the specific charisma. It will be necessary time in particular so that the things end, so that our liturgical specificity is felt like legitimate. We already received from a Master of the Order the participation in the spiritual goods of the Order. The contacts are numerous with fathers of various provinces. They are the Dominican ones which preaches usually our retirements of community. Fathers told us to find in our Convent the life which they had known before the crisis.
I am not sure where you are getting your information but it is incorrect.
 
Haha! I want to be a Dominican nun SO BAD one day and amusingly enough, I love Catholic Apologetics! I’ve even made videos on youtube! [no advertising of personal websites in posts]
That is awesome! Have you looked at any specific groups? You mentioned nun so I am assuming you feel called to the contemplative life rather than the active sisters. There several wonderful groups of both here in the US.

Wishing you the intercession of our Holy Father Dominic.

Peace,
 
…clip…

For the Franciscan family, chanting is a novelty that resulted from Vatican II.

…clip…
Does this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Now, that’s a different twist. Exactly the opposite was the case out in the parishes.
How did that happen?
 
Now, that’s a different twist. Exactly the opposite was the case out in the parishes.
How did that happen?
It’s called Oppression.

As a result of Vatican I, the Franciscans were sucked into parish work. There was a need and bishops did not have enough diocesan priests. There were many friars in the missions. They got pulled in by the bishops.

The bishops have power over the Franciscans, because the rule says that Franciscans may never question a bishop, no matter what he commands. They asked for more ordained friars.

The result was:
  1. The number of ordained friars surpassed the number of non ordained friars.
  2. The ordained friars became so involved in parish work that eventually, they loved it.
  3. In order to keep up that pace, they had to change things around the house.
  4. The chapter enacted some new statuttes
Ordained friars could have money

Ordained friars could have cars

Ordained friars could live, work and pray as other religious did and as secular clergy did

Ordained friars were to take control of the order

Non ordained friars were no longer allowed to vote or be elected to office

Only the unlettered could be non ordained friar. If you were educated, you had to be a priest

Every house had to separate. The ordained could not mix with the non ordained. They ate, prayed, recreated and worked separately

Non ordained were not allowed to speak to the ordained unless spoken to.

The ordained were not allowed to do any manual labor.

The non ordained cleaned, cooked, did laundry, cleared tables, worked the land, begged for food and money, did dishes, cared for the sick friars, shined shoes, took care of sacristies and churches.

Non ordained were not allowed to continue in outside apostolic work.

Ordained were no longer allowed to embrace manual labor, silence and solitude.

The laity was taught to hold the ordained in high esteem and to look at the non ordained as the hired help rather than consecrated religious.

Religious sisters were taught to bully the non ordained. They did a very good job at it.

Sisters would send boys to the order to become priests. Those boys who were failing in school, the sisters would send to become non ordained brothers. This reinforced the general impression that the friars were diocesan priests living in a monastic setting.

By 1950, the situation had become untenable. There were so many friars, because the order took in any warm body that walked in the door and most were priests, with very little interest in living the Franciscan life, but very interested in being parish priests.

The laity loved it, because it met their needs and they had no idea what a friar was supposed to be. As far as they were concerned, everything was fine.

Pope Piux XII told the friar to hold on, changes would be coming.

In 1962, Pope John XXIII ordered the friars to tear down the infrastructure and go back before 1800, as far back to 1209 as possible.

Vatican II issued Pefectae Caritatis calling for a recovery of the charism.

In 1970, general chatpers were held to rewrite the constitution and make it fit the Rule of St. Francis. The non ordained brothers rebelled and threatened to walk out if their rights were not restored.

The bishops and the laity were in an uproar. They did not like the change. To them, this was novelty. To the friars, this was going back to the origins.

Many ordained friars did not like the change, because this new “order” was not what they signed up for. They had never seen Franciscan life in it’s real form. They entered what they saw, not what Francis founded.

The result was that many ordained friars left the order, about 3,000.

It was a blessing for the order, but it was not so good for the laity.

The changes also included that friars would no longer take up new parishes unless they are poor parishes.

Non ordained brothers became superiors, theologians, formators, were elected to the council, became parish administrators, spiritual directors, teachers, college professors, missionaries, medical doctors even diocesan chancellors.

The door was opened for individual gifts. There are friars who are superiors and friars who are cooks and gardeners. There are friars who are priests and friars who are theologians.

The innovation of Gregorian Chant and such other silliness was toned down. It was left in place as long as the local community votes to use it. No one is bound to use it as per the mandate of St. Clare. Each house votes on it.

Many parishes have been closed or given back to the bishops in order to recover the charism of the Franciscan family. This has not gone over well in some places. But there are no diocesan priests or other religious who can cover those parishes.

The larger Order of Friars Minor is gradually subdividing into smaller communities as was Francis vision. In the USA alone, 15 new Franciscan communities of men have been founded during the last 20 years. All are thriving, they have a balance in their life between work, play and prayer. The LOTH is no longer done in Gregorian Chant unless it’s the wish the local house and approved by the local superior. The EF is only celebrated if the local superior approves. All friars are of equal rank the lines between ordained and non ordained are grudually disappearing.

The lines between religious and laity are being strengthened again.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
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