L
- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
That’s no longer the case. Since 1970 there are many non ordained Franciscans who have been superiors and some superior generals too.
On Pentecost Sunday, yours truly will be installed as the superior general of the Franciscans of Life (FFV) and he’s not a priest either.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Bro J,
Great post (referring to the one above my post, although the one after that is great, too 
)
Interestingly enough, our spiritual assistant is a Brother (replacing a priest who once said there would be “no time” for an OFS Mass/Final Profession during the Feast week of Father Francis
). The Regional visitor is also a Brother. They both “feel” so Franciscan
Great post
(referring to the one above my post, although the one after that is great, too )Interestingly enough, our spiritual assistant is a Brother (replacing a priest who once said there would be “no time” for an OFS Mass/Final Profession during the Feast week of Father Francis
). The Regional visitor is also a Brother. They both “feel” so Franciscan
L
Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Praise God, fratello! I am so proud of you, amico mio! Well deserved. You are a breath of fresh air to the Order, and to the Church as a whole.That’s no longer the case. Since 1970 there are many non ordained Franciscans who have been superiors and some superior generals too.
On Pentecost Sunday, yours truly will be installed as the superior general of the Franciscans of Life (FFV) and he’s not a priest either.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Congratulazioni!
:salute: <–we need that smiley
J
JReducation
Guest
Thank you. Just pray for me. I’m really terrified. The souls of these men will be in my care. I’d rather have needles slipped under my finger nails.Praise God, fratello! I am so proud of you, amico mio! Well deserved. You are a breath of fresh air to the Order, and to the Church as a whole.
Congratulazioni!
As Padre Pio said, “Obedience, obedience and more obedience.”
As I like to say, “When you get tired of obeying, take a deep breath and try it again.”
I’ve chosen my motto for my time in office. “Deus eligit stultus”
(God chooses fools).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
Luigi_Daniele
Guest
HahahahahaThank you. Just pray for me. I’m really terrified. The souls of these men will be in my care. I’d rather have needles slipped under my finger nails.
As Padre Pio said, “Obedience, obedience and more obedience.”
As I like to say, “When you get tired of obeying, take a deep breath and try it again.”
I’ve chosen my motto for my time in office. “Deus eligit stultus”
(God chooses fools).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Rest assured of my (continued) prayers for you, fratello.
I
iloveangels
Guest
Oh, Okay, I misunderstood. I thought you meant that chant had picked up since Vatican II from what it was between 1800-1950, and I didn’t understand that, given the VII era instruction to return to the sources. (which obviously don’t include scholas for Franciscans)It’s called Oppression.
As a result of Vatican I, the Franciscans were sucked into parish work. There was a need and bishops did not have enough diocesan priests. There were many friars in the missions. They got pulled in by the bishops.
The bishops have power over the Franciscans, because the rule says that Franciscans may never question a bishop, no matter what he commands. They asked for more ordained friars.
…clip…
The lines between religious and laity are being strengthened again.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I know about the oppression of Franciscan men, particularly friars during the V1-V2 period from your earlier posts.
So the Friars are returning to what’s more Franciscan now, after that period. So chant isn’t used as much now… Is that right, or am I still out in left field someplace?
I
iloveangels
Guest
Br JR,That’s no longer the case. Since 1970 there are many non ordained Franciscans who have been superiors and some superior generals too.
On Pentecost Sunday, yours truly will be installed as the superior general of the Franciscans of Life (FFV) and he’s not a priest either.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
You’ll do fine. God will help you.
And we’ll be praying for you.
I
iloveangels
Guest
Br JR,Thank you. Just pray for me. I’m really terrified. The souls of these men will be in my care. I’d rather have needles slipped under my finger nails.
As Padre Pio said, “Obedience, obedience and more obedience.”
As I like to say, “When you get tired of obeying, take a deep breath and try it again.”
I’ve chosen my motto for my time in office. “Deus eligit stultus”
(God chooses fools).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
You’ll do fine. God will help you.
And we’ll be praying for you.
J
JReducation
Guest
That’s right. Sometime after 1800 Gregorian Chant was imposed on Franciscans by our superiors, because of the attempt to make Franciscans fit in. It was resisted for about 150 years, until finally the lid flew off the kettle and the friars asked the Holy Father to stop it. That’s when Pope Pius XII promised that change was coming. It did, with Perfectae Caritatis.
However, in order to be charitable to those men who came in between 1800 and 1970, it was decided that instead of banning chant and the Tridentine mass in one swoop, that it would be left up to the house to vote on it. The vote must be approved by the superior. He can veto the house. He cannot impose chant or the EF, because it’s contrary to the mind of Francis and Clare. He can prohibit it, because it would be consistent with the minds of Francis and Clare. I have yet to meet superior who has prohibited it without a good reason. When I was superior of the house, I regulated it. There Chant and the EF lost the vote by one. It’s too close to ignore the other side. It was like a 6 to 5 vote.
Even though the vote said, “No chant” and “No EF”, I overruled it. In instituted chant and EF on certain solemnities to be identified by the superior of the house. That was the end of that discussion. It worked out well. The current superior still uses that same formula. In this house there are five solemnities when neither chant or EF are ever allowed: Easter, Solemnity of St. Clare, Stigmata of St. Francis, Passing of St. Francis and Christmas. it would be highly inconsistent with the minds of the founders to use them on days that are so intimately connected to them.
If we do a Tridentine mass at Christmas, we can’t do the Christmas pageant during the mass. Francis always did the Christmas pageant during the Midnight Mass at Christmas. He created the Christmas pageant and the Passion Play.
If we do the Tridentine mass for the Easter Vigil, we can’t use the Franciscan form, because it does not exist in the Tridentine Form. It’s much older than the Tridentine form. The Franciscan Easter Vigil has 7 readings, the Exulted is chanted by the superior of the house, not by the priest. The mass has to be in dialogue form, it cannot be with a schola. It can be ad orientem and in Latin, but the entire community participates in the prayers. The Tridentine high mass has very little participation by the congregation. This would set the priest apart, which would take us back to the period between 1800 and 1970.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
Ahh, I have found my face book statusThank you. Just pray for me. I’m really terrified. The souls of these men will be in my care. I’d rather have needles slipped under my finger nails.
As Padre Pio said, “Obedience, obedience and more obedience.”
As I like to say, “When you get tired of obeying, take a deep breath and try it again.”
I’ve chosen my motto for my time in office. “Deus eligit stultus”
(God chooses fools).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I
iloveangels
Guest
This is really excellent IMHO, keeping in mind both kindness where it’s needed and the charism. Lots of work but a very fraternal and Franciscan result. I see how it works.That’s right. Sometime after 1800 Gregorian Chant was imposed on Franciscans by our superiors, because of the attempt to make Franciscans fit in. It was resisted for about 150 years, until finally the lid flew off the kettle and the friars asked the Holy Father to stop it. That’s when Pope Pius XII promised that change was coming. It did, with Perfectae Caritatis.
However, in order to be charitable to those men who came in between 1800 and 1970, it was decided that instead of banning chant and the Tridentine mass in one swoop, that it would be left up to the house to vote on it. The vote must be approved by the superior. He can veto the house. He cannot impose chant or the EF, because it’s contrary to the mind of Francis and Clare. He can prohibit it, because it would be consistent with the minds of Francis and Clare. I have yet to meet superior who has prohibited it without a good reason. When I was superior of the house, I regulated it. There Chant and the EF lost the vote by one. It’s too close to ignore the other side. It was like a 6 to 5 vote.
Even though the vote said, “No chant” and “No EF”, I overruled it. In instituted chant and EF on certain solemnities to be identified by the superior of the house. That was the end of that discussion. It worked out well. The current superior still uses that same formula. In this house there are five solemnities when neither chant or EF are ever allowed: Easter, Solemnity of St. Clare, Stigmata of St. Francis, Passing of St. Francis and Christmas. it would be highly inconsistent with the minds of the founders to use them on days that are so intimately connected to them.
If we do a Tridentine mass at Christmas, we can’t do the Christmas pageant during the mass. Francis always did the Christmas pageant during the Midnight Mass at Christmas. He created the Christmas pageant and the Passion Play.
If we do the Tridentine mass for the Easter Vigil, we can’t use the Franciscan form, because it does not exist in the Tridentine Form. It’s much older than the Tridentine form. The Franciscan Easter Vigil has 7 readings, the Exulted is chanted by the superior of the house, not by the priest. The mass has to be in dialogue form, it cannot be with a schola. It can be ad orientem and in Latin, but the entire community participates in the prayers. The Tridentine high mass has very little participation by the congregation. This would set the priest apart, which would take us back to the period between 1800 and 1970.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
It is very hard work and we have not perfected it. We try to be sensitive to the friars who entered before Vatican II. We understand that they never knew the Franciscans of the 13th to 18th century. When they entered, those things were taught as ancient history. They were never taught that this was how they should aspire to live and work. Many said, “Had i know, I wold not have entered.” The entered the order they saw, not the order that had been locked up in a closet for 150 years of its 750 year existence at the time. The Franciscans turned 750 in 1969. This form of Franciscan life really kicked in around 1800 and not with every house either. The Capuchins resisted it as much as they could.
Some key players in bringing back the original spirit of St. Francis died without ever knowing that they were key players. They were either members of one of the mendicant orders or members of one of the mendicant secular orders.
- Pope Benedict XV (Franciscan)
- St. Maximilian Kolbe (Conventual Franciscan)
- Ven. Solanus Casey (Capuchin Franciscan)
- Ven. Pius XII (Franciscan)
- St. Padre Pio (Capuchin Franciscan)
- Bl. John XXIII (Franciscan)
- Pope Paul VI (Dominican)
- Bl. John Paul II (Discalced Carmelite)
Br. JR, FFV
I
iloveangels
Guest
Interesting. I didn’t know that all those people were involved in this. And I didn’t know that Pius XII & Benedict XV were Franciscans.It is very hard work and we have not perfected it. We try to be sensitive to the friars who entered before Vatican II. We understand that they never knew the Franciscans of the 13th to 18th century. When they entered, those things were taught as ancient history. They were never taught that this was how they should aspire to live and work. Many said, “Had i know, I wold not have entered.” The entered the order they saw, not the order that had been locked up in a closet for 150 years of its 750 year existence at the time. The Franciscans turned 750 in 1969. This form of Franciscan life really kicked in around 1800 and not with every house either. The Capuchins resisted it as much as they could.
Some key players in bringing back the original spirit of St. Francis died without ever knowing that they were key players. They were either members of one of the mendicant orders or members of one of the mendicant secular orders.
Fraternally,
- Pope Benedict XV (Franciscan)
- St. Maximilian Kolbe (Conventual Franciscan)
- Ven. Solanus Casey (Capuchin Franciscan)
- Ven. Pius XII (Franciscan)
- St. Padre Pio (Capuchin Franciscan)
- Bl. John XXIII (Franciscan)
- Pope Paul VI (Dominican)
- Bl. John Paul II (Discalced Carmelite)
Br. JR, FFV
Now that I look at it, that’s a long list of fairly recent religious, and a lot of them are popes.
I know about Solanus Casey. I think he was a Capuchin and he was from the Midwest. There is an SFO fraternity in Detroit, I think, named after him.
J
JReducation
Guest
Every pope from Pius IX to John XXIII was either a Franciscan Friar or a professed Secular Franciscan. This brought many Franciscans to work at the Vatican, for the Vatican, at the Holy See and for the Papal Household
The Signatura – OFM Justices
St. Peter’s Basilica – OFM Conv. Official chaplains
Papal Household – OFM Cap. Official chaplains
Papal Custody of the Holy Land – OFM. Official governors
Delegation to the UN – OFS – led by an Apostolic Delegate
Ven. Solanus Casey was from Wisconsin. He died at St. Bonaventure’s Friary in Detroit. He joined the German Capuchin Franciscans in Detroit. His religious life was almost equally divided between NY and Detroit. In 1924, he and a German Capuchin re-introduced ecumenism into the Franciscans, beginning in NYC. Ecumenism has slowed down since most of Europe and it colonies were Catholic. Ecumenical activities were pretty limited to the Franciscans in the Custody of the Holy Land. Founded a soup kitchen in Detroit that is still running. Was the firs American ordained Franciscan who was an assistant to a non ordained Franciscan. This was very common before 1800. He was part of a group of friars who begged the superiors of the order to change the official language of the order to the local languages. He never lived to see this request granted. Today the Franciscan languages are Latin, Italian, Spanish, English, German, French and Portuguese. Spanish is number one, Italian number two and English number three.
St. Maximilian Kolbe reintroduces the worker priest among the friars. He founds the the monastery of Niepokalanów near Warsaw. It had 800 friars. None of whom ever saw the inside of a parish, most never heard a confession, baptized a child, witnessed a marriage or buried the dead. There were ordained and non ordained, all living together as equals. They ran the largest printing press in Europe, a radio station, the diocesan seminary for the Bishop of Warsaw, published a daily Catholic newspaper and a monthly Catholic magazine, recovered the Franciscan traditional devotion to the Immaculate Conception.and they sent friars to India and Japan with the vision of preaching the Gospel and preserving the local culture. The founded the largest Franciscan province in the world, which is in India.
Padre Pio never left the friary to work in a parish. He restored the age old tradition of the ordained friar who sat in his confessional at the friary waiting for the penitents and who was a master confessor and spiritual director. He also set the example of being one of the few ordained friars of his era who did manual work around the house and never missed a community function, not even to hear a confession.
Pope Benedict XV brought the ancient Franciscan journals out of the archives and started to write a biography on Francis and the early community to recover the original paradigm. Unfortunately, Pope Benedict was a horrific writer. His were never got published. However, a Dutch writer asked and received permission to use Pope Benedict’s work and he touched it up here and there and produced the now famous book, Perfect Joy of St. Francis.
Pope Paul VI, reunited the Order of Franciscans Secular in 1978 and allowed the friars to publish a Roman - Franciscan missal, lectionary and breviary to replace the old Seraphic books around 1970 or 73. I can’t quite recall. This brought to a close the question of whether or not Franciscans were bound to use Gregorian Chant and Latin. The answer was, "No, because they are not monks and they were never formed in that liturgical tradition. They always had their own liturgical tradition, which outdates the Tridentine Mass and which was the basis for the Tridentine Mass. As far as the breviary was concerned, there was never an official Catholic breviary in the history of the Church. The Roman Breviary was for anyone who did not already have one of their own.
As you can see, each of these men preserved a piece of the ancient Franciscan charism. Those who argued that the Pre Vatican II form of Franciscan life was the formal one, because of organic development, were proven wrong by men who preserved important parts of the original and who argued that they religious life of Franciscans between 1800 and 1950 was not organic development, but a pragmatic solution to a problem in the missionary Churches. But it could not be sustained for the next 800 years without having to say that Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi no longer fit into the order. It’s not organic if it no longer has room for the founder. That’s a remodeling. Remodeling can be good. But we should call a spade a spade, not a shovel.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
A
AlwaysCurious
Guest
I’m sure it varies from one community to another, but do most still lean this way? Maybe it wouldn’t be mandatory for an educated novice to begin the path toward priesthood, but he’d be strongly encouraged toward it, especially if the community hasn’t had many vocations recently?
J
JReducation
Guest
In fact, most lean away from that now. Religious enter communities to live the charism of the community. If you enter the Jesuits, you know that it’s a clerical order. You will be a priest
If you enter the Franciscans, Cistercians, Missionaries of Charity, Benedictines and others, you know that these are fraternal orders. You will be either a monk or a friar, but you don’t have to be a priest and the superiors are not allowed to encourage you to be a priest. The mission of the superior is to promote the consecrated life and to protect the charism of his order, not to provide priests for the Church. This was never the mind of the founders. The priesthood was accidental to them. Priests joined them, they did not recruit priests.
The Dominicans are very interesting. They are friars, which means brothers. However, they were founded for the purpose of preaching. In those days, the only preachers who were not priests were Franciscans. It was very normal for Dominic to found a clerical order. However, they recruited men to be coadjutor brothers to serve the preaching mission of the order. These men are not priests, but are truly Dominican friars, just like their clerical brethren. Their vocation is not to go out and preach, but to take care of everything that is necessary for preaching to happen. They are different vocations in one order
Franciscans are one vocation in three orders. The vocation of the Franciscan is to live the Gospel in obedience, in fraternity, doing penance, living an intense life of prayer and serving according to their gifts. Some may be priests, but it’s not a necessity. There are 1.7 million Franciscans and less than 40,000 who are priests. That’s less than 10% and the number of priests among Franciscan is going down, because it’s being allowed to drop, while the number of Franciscans who are not priests is on the rise. Of the five new Franciscan communities founded in the USA only two allow friars to be ordained priests.
Now you have some very educated friars such as Br. Daniel Sumasy, OFM who is a Dr. of Theology and Ethics and a Medical Doctor. He is one of the most educated members of the order and is not a priest. We have friars who are Doctors of Theology, sciences, art, liturgy, scripture who are not priests. We have friars who are priests who run sop kitchens, preach and teach on TV, do retreat work, write books, run homes for children and adults, teach at universities, serve as cooks and gardeners too.
We cannot forget that we also have 20,000 cloistered nuns. This number is second only to the Benedictine nuns. The Secular Franciscans number 500,000. They make up almost one third of the order. Among them there are lay people and clergy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I
iloveangels
Guest
Yes, and the great majority of Secular Franciscans are professed laity. The Minister General of the Secular Franciscans in Rome is a professed layperson. Her name is Encarnación del Pozo OFS, and I believe she’s from Spain.In fact, most lean away from that now. Religious enter communities to live the charism of the community. If you enter the Jesuits, you know that it’s a clerical order. You will be a priest
…clip…
We cannot forget that we also have 20,000 cloistered nuns. This number is second only to the Benedictine nuns. The Secular Franciscans number 500,000. They make up almost one third of the order. Among them there are lay people and clergy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
Luigi_Daniele
Guest
A small correction: Bl John XXIII was an OFSIt is very hard work and we have not perfected it. We try to be sensitive to the friars who entered before Vatican II. We understand that they never knew the Franciscans of the 13th to 18th century. When they entered, those things were taught as ancient history. They were never taught that this was how they should aspire to live and work. Many said, “Had i know, I wold not have entered.” The entered the order they saw, not the order that had been locked up in a closet for 150 years of its 750 year existence at the time. The Franciscans turned 750 in 1969. This form of Franciscan life really kicked in around 1800 and not with every house either. The Capuchins resisted it as much as they could.
Some key players in bringing back the original spirit of St. Francis died without ever knowing that they were key players. They were either members of one of the mendicant orders or members of one of the mendicant secular orders.
Fraternally,
- Pope Benedict XV (Franciscan)
- St. Maximilian Kolbe (Conventual Franciscan)
- Ven. Solanus Casey (Capuchin Franciscan)
- Ven. Pius XII (Franciscan)
- St. Padre Pio (Capuchin Franciscan)
- Bl. John XXIII (Franciscan)
- Pope Paul VI (Dominican)
- Bl. John Paul II (Discalced Carmelite)
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
Yes, I know. But most people don’t know what OFS is yet. Some people still have SFO or TOSF or TOS in their memory banks. The younger people probably are probably more familiar with SFO, since OFS in English is less than 6 months old.A small correction: Bl John XXIII was an OFS
Franciscan covers a multitude of saints and sinners.
When we speak about the OFM, we don’t call them Franciscans. The laity refers to all of us as Franciscans. When we speak about the OFM we cal them by their full name. Observant Franciscans and the TOR would be Franciscan Bros of Penance.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I had to think of the initials after my name. Life was much easier before we had so many initials for Franciscans. - Status