M
- Status
M
Myhrr
Guest
[/quote]
Acts 4:12 (a quote from the Apostle Peter)
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Opinion? What does he use to back that up?
John 14:6 (a quote from Christ)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
The Father? Who’s that?
1 John 5:12 (a quote from the Apostle John)
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God has not life.
What does he use to back that up?
Acts 4:12 (a quote from the Apostle Peter)
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Opinion? What does he use to back that up?
John 14:6 (a quote from Christ)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
The Father? Who’s that?
1 John 5:12 (a quote from the Apostle John)
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God has not life.
What does he use to back that up?
C
chrisb
Guest
Peace be with you GWitherow,
I will endeavor to address our contention. Before we continue, I would like to offer a quote for us to reflect on.
Strive first for the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. – Matthew 6:33
no one comes to the Father but by me
When you look at this what is it your see? In this reference “by me” does Christ mean literally “through him” or does it reference “the Church” as the “Body of Christ” or does it mean through perfection of the self (i.e. St. John’s instructions to “make yourself perfect as our Father is perfect”? All these go beyond the literal observance of Jewish Law and I suggest that they all go beyond any narrow interpretation one might offer as a recipe for salvation (i.e. baptism, Eucharist, etc). We as Christians are repeatedly guided to look deeper and literally “put on Christ”… become “Christ”. On the Cross, Christ listened to the repentant thief beside Him and said, “Amen, I tell you that you will now join me in Heaven because of your faith”. Was he Baptized? Did he partake in any Sacrament before this recognition of his salvation by Christ? I tell you no but saved he was. Why? I would posit that salvation is a “state of being” and although it can be reached easily through one’s participation in the Sacraments this “state of grace” is a receiving of God’s freely given gift and not offer by anyone or anything but God through the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Outwardly by the Father, through the Church or the Body of Christ or inwardly through the salvic work of the Holy Spirit. As man of faith, we should be more sensitive to the inner workings of the Holy Spirit as the Catechism rightly points out.
It is in silence that God is known, and through mysteries that he declares himself.
No one can know God who has not first known himself. Go to the depths of the soul, the secret place of the Most High, to the roots, to the heights, for all that can be known of God is found there. – Meister Eckhart
I assume that you would agree that God’s Truth is God’s Truth? Truth is Truth. We need not add any additional labels to it. Where we find Truth, it is beyond any argument that God is present. Truth cannot be where God is not. As I have stated in a previous post, Where I find Good, I also have found God. Where there is righteousness and goodness there “must” also be found the Holy Spirit at work. So as I have stated, I don’t refute anything that you have offered as valid revelation but I also don’t deny the salvic work of the Lord where there is love, humility and faith. I leave labels for the lawyers for there are rules which define love’s response, though love always and everywhere finds concrete expression.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
I will endeavor to address our contention. Before we continue, I would like to offer a quote for us to reflect on.
Strive first for the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. – Matthew 6:33
Yes, friend, I fortunately read the Holy Scriptures daily and I recognize these quotes but I would ask you… What do you think he meant by those statements? Let’s just take a look at one.
no one comes to the Father but by me
When you look at this what is it your see? In this reference “by me” does Christ mean literally “through him” or does it reference “the Church” as the “Body of Christ” or does it mean through perfection of the self (i.e. St. John’s instructions to “make yourself perfect as our Father is perfect”? All these go beyond the literal observance of Jewish Law and I suggest that they all go beyond any narrow interpretation one might offer as a recipe for salvation (i.e. baptism, Eucharist, etc). We as Christians are repeatedly guided to look deeper and literally “put on Christ”… become “Christ”. On the Cross, Christ listened to the repentant thief beside Him and said, “Amen, I tell you that you will now join me in Heaven because of your faith”. Was he Baptized? Did he partake in any Sacrament before this recognition of his salvation by Christ? I tell you no but saved he was. Why? I would posit that salvation is a “state of being” and although it can be reached easily through one’s participation in the Sacraments this “state of grace” is a receiving of God’s freely given gift and not offer by anyone or anything but God through the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Outwardly by the Father, through the Church or the Body of Christ or inwardly through the salvic work of the Holy Spirit. As man of faith, we should be more sensitive to the inner workings of the Holy Spirit as the Catechism rightly points out.
It is in silence that God is known, and through mysteries that he declares himself.
I am interested in knowing how you interpret this. It appears that you assume Christ is making a statement about religious practice? I would suggest that He is making a more general statement about the typical sinful state of man who remains deaf to the subtleties of the divine nature and the salvation it brings.
No one can know God who has not first known himself. Go to the depths of the soul, the secret place of the Most High, to the roots, to the heights, for all that can be known of God is found there. – Meister Eckhart
What or who is Christ to you, friend? I notice you are quick to define this bringer of salvation. So I ask you what or who is Christ to you? Your answer will be both informing to you as well as to me.
I assume that you would agree that God’s Truth is God’s Truth? Truth is Truth. We need not add any additional labels to it. Where we find Truth, it is beyond any argument that God is present. Truth cannot be where God is not. As I have stated in a previous post, Where I find Good, I also have found God. Where there is righteousness and goodness there “must” also be found the Holy Spirit at work. So as I have stated, I don’t refute anything that you have offered as valid revelation but I also don’t deny the salvic work of the Lord where there is love, humility and faith. I leave labels for the lawyers for there are rules which define love’s response, though love always and everywhere finds concrete expression.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
G
GrzeszDeL
Guest
Although, by way of brief aside, I would point out that “Allah” is not a uniquely Muslim name for God. Arabic speaking Christians entheusiastically confess that Jesus Christ is “Allah.” In other words, “Allah” is just the Arabic word for God. I understand what you mean, however; Islam is not a useful means to approach God.
G
GWitherow
Guest
Dan-Man916,
I am in agreement with what you’ve stated. I think we pretty much agree with the Church teaching found in DOMINUS IESUS.
G
GWitherow
Guest
Myhrr,
Maybe you should open new threads on these questions like, “Is the Bible reliable?” and “What is the Trinity and is it true?”
Your questions make it sound like your doubtful or have questions on both these topics.
God Bless
G
GWitherow
Guest
Chrisb,
I will try and answer your other questions but I think this quote of yours strikes at the heart of our (potential) differences. DOMINUS IESUS addressed the heresy of “Indifferentism”.
To again quote the document, “[The Church rules out] that mentality of indifferentism characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.
So a straightforward and easy question. Do you embrace the
teaching of DOMINUS IESUS?
If you do, then we’re only quibbling over semantics.
God Bless
C
chrisb
Guest
To again quote the document, “[The Church rules out] that mentality of indifferentism characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.
So a straightforward and easy question. Do you embrace the
teaching of DOMINUS IESUS?
Peace be with you GWitherow,
From what I have read of what of it has been posted, I would have to say that it overly grasps at an election that is unnecessary to foster in the Christian Vocation. I don’t have to knock others down to know that I am standing tall. I also don’t look at salvation as something to grasp intellectually with all the “right” metaphysical constructs, rituals and practices it is ultimately up to God’s Mercy and although I can’t say that I feel assured of my own salvation I strive to humble myself to receive it, if it is God’s Will. Now try not to take me the wrong way, I adore my Catholic Mass, the Liturgy of the Hours and the Rosary but I simply don’t look at them as things that insure me God’s Grace. “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” Doing God’s Will is what we must be to the business of, nothing else, friend. What you appear to call indifferentism I call recognizing God’s “hidden” work in others outside the faith. How do you know that you have gained “more” reward from God than those who bear sweeter fruit by other means? Would insistence to change them place them in a better situation? I would ask that before I attempted to convert someone. The Church has changed its evangelical mission toward Jews because of this very concern. Are they safer where they are at? Is there a strong possibility of salvation through there current practice? Just because you feast before a banquet each day and they do not doesn’t mean that they have not received the nutrition needed. It is far more complex than your superficial interpretation of Church Doctrine might suggest at first blush. Have you seen Priests engaged in ecumenical dialogs? I have and they are not there to convert but to evaluate, to learn and if they find the situation profitable, to offer our Lord and Saviors message with humility and with example. This isn’t able being right or wrong or saved or unsaved, it’s about pleasing God and doing His Will as good shepherds. Shepherds don’t force his flock but nurtures them and protects them and seeks good pastures for them to grow strong and wise. This is not about debates over which “liturgy” manifests “Christ” it’s more than such minutia as I have said “I know where grace ‘is’, but I don’t know where it ‘is not’, friend. Let us not be rash but move and speak with greater wisdom that the Pharisees, who knew that Law but didn’t understand it.
May God continue to guide us with mercy and grace. Amen.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
M
Myhrr
Guest
I’m questioning your Church’s insistence that you have the Truth to start with -Myhrr,
Maybe you should open new threads on these questions like, “Is the Bible reliable?” and “What is the Trinity and is it true?”
Your questions make it sound like your doubtful or have questions on both these topics.
God Bless
You might well be convinced that your Church has the right to make such a statement and, as you do, find it reassuring, but, for example, I could very easily say from your own Gospels that Jesus only claimed he was the way to the Father, which begs the question, where’s the Mother, and what’s Her way?
If you can’t tell me what he meant by Father just what ‘Truth’ is it that you claim is superior to other paths to God?
W
Wil_Peregrin
Guest
uhoh! 
Which Presbytery?
Well, what can you tell them? God determined from eternity past that you would become a Catholic.
Just keep remembering: Jesus being fully God as well as fully man could NOT have only died for a limited elect.
Which Presbytery?
Well, what can you tell them? God determined from eternity past that you would become a Catholic.
Just keep remembering: Jesus being fully God as well as fully man could NOT have only died for a limited elect.
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
Hi Greg,
Hmm, you make an interesting point that I never really thought about. I always considered this question from the POV of Protestants who do not have valid Sacraments.
So I don’t have an answer for you.
I’ll have to think about that some more.
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
chrisb
chrisb:
The Sacraments are a real encounter with Christ Incarnate. ALL of the Sacraments flow from the Incarnation. As Christ came in the flesh, so His grace flows from physical things.
There is no legalism in the Sacraments. They are encounters with the Incarnate Christ! That is why the Sacraments are necessary for salvation. It is through that personal encouter with Christ that we accept the graces unto salvation that He won for us.
the Eucharist is Christ. That is why I reverence the consecrated host.
I do not believe that the faith of the Buddhist is at all salvific. It may certainly be a preparation for the gospel, but the Catholic Church teaches that Buddhism does not save, only Christ does. However, Buddhists are not even looking for salvation. They are looking for Nirvana. We are looking for communion with God. These are 2 diamtrically opposed final goals. The Buddhist may indeed be saved. But if he is saved, he is through Christ, not Buddha.
Of course. God gives all the grace unto salvation. “How you loved” is the measure of how did you respond to God’s free gift of salvation by the grace He gives. It is not what saves us. Only grace saves us.
WHOA!!! We are saved by grace. The beatitudes are our response to grace. Let’s make sure that we understand that the grace Christ gives us for salvation comes from the sanctifying grace found in the Sacraments.
legalism? No legalism at all. Have you ever read anything of Sacramental theology?
The Sacraments are a real encounter with Christ Incarnate. ALL of the Sacraments flow from the Incarnation. As Christ came in the flesh, so His grace flows from physical things.
There is no legalism in the Sacraments. They are encounters with the Incarnate Christ! That is why the Sacraments are necessary for salvation. It is through that personal encouter with Christ that we accept the graces unto salvation that He won for us.
There are different kinds of graces. All other methods are lacking becuase all other methods lack the encounter with Christ in the flesh. This is the basic tenet of our belief in the Sacraments.
Really? Then what pray-tell are they? If the eucharist is not Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, then our Catholic faith is in vain. I could only be accused of idolotry if I worshipped something in place of God.
the Eucharist is Christ. That is why I reverence the consecrated host.
M
MariaG
Guest
Myhrr,
It appears you question whether or not the Bible is God’s inspired word. This would be a different thread. I looked at your profile, but you do not say what if any religion you are. It would help if you put that in so I and others could see what direction you are coming from. The arguments one puts forth to a Christian are vastly different than those who are not Christian.
If you are a Christian, I wonder at you questions.
Either way, they are questions of a new thread.
God Bless,
Maria
It appears you question whether or not the Bible is God’s inspired word. This would be a different thread. I looked at your profile, but you do not say what if any religion you are. It would help if you put that in so I and others could see what direction you are coming from. The arguments one puts forth to a Christian are vastly different than those who are not Christian.
If you are a Christian, I wonder at you questions.
Either way, they are questions of a new thread.
God Bless,
Maria
M
Myhrr
Guest
Sometimes I wonder at them myself…
I’m not arguing about the Bible, I am, in this case, using the Bible to argue against Dominus Iesus.
In this particular discussion, Dominus Iesus, it doesn’t matter what religion I am, whether I argue against it from a Christian perspective or any other I’m still arguing against it, so here I am.
God bless you too
M
Myhrr
Guest
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
Myhrr,
Yes, we are saved by Hope.
I think that the fullest explnation of the biblical teaching on salvation is that We are saved by grace, through faith, hope, and love(charity).
Grace is God’s part. he is the author, finisher, and mediator of that grace.
The Father willed it.
The Son worked it out for us.
The Holy Spirit Sanctifies and Justifies us.
Our part is in the middle where we freely cooperate with God’s grace working within us allowing it to transform us. That free cooperation is expressed in faith, hope, and love.
The bible is full of verses that show salvation through these 3 things (faith, hope, and love). I won’t post them unless you are interested, but i think that would be the best way to explain it.
Yes, we are saved by Hope.
I think that the fullest explnation of the biblical teaching on salvation is that We are saved by grace, through faith, hope, and love(charity).
Grace is God’s part. he is the author, finisher, and mediator of that grace.
The Father willed it.
The Son worked it out for us.
The Holy Spirit Sanctifies and Justifies us.
Our part is in the middle where we freely cooperate with God’s grace working within us allowing it to transform us. That free cooperation is expressed in faith, hope, and love.
The bible is full of verses that show salvation through these 3 things (faith, hope, and love). I won’t post them unless you are interested, but i think that would be the best way to explain it.
M
Myhrr
Guest
Danman - (how’s Mrs Danman?) - Grace means something very specific in your Church, a meaning which doesn’t exist in the Orthodox Church, since we both read those Bible verses according to our own lights we’re not actually in agreement here about grace.
So, back to hope.
“The Orthodox Catechism, published early in this century with the blessing of the New Martyr Patriarch Tikhon, says that *Christian Hope *is “the resting of the heart on God, with the full trust that He ever cares for our salvation, and will give us the happiness He has promised.””
That’s the Orthodox view, and that can’t by definition be limited to any organisation calling itself Christian or otherwise, God is apprehended through the heart, are you saying that no one is capable of loving God fully except in your Church?
To whichever EENS stretch you want to take Dominus Iesus it’s a claim your Church makes about itself, it doesn’t have any foundation on Christ’s own words about salvation, who will be saved and who will not:
Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+25&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
myhrr,
she’s doing good. thanks for asking.
She just saw the doctor last week regarding her tests. She continues to remain in full remission from cancer.
she’s doing good. thanks for asking.
She just saw the doctor last week regarding her tests. She continues to remain in full remission from cancer.
G
GrzeszDeL
Guest
Myhrr said:
Interestingly, it is also the same claim the the Eastern Orthodox Church makes about itself. I leave it to the reader to compare and contrast the details of Dominus Jesus and the response issued by the Russian Orthodox Bishops, Basic Principles…, but it seems pretty clear to me that they each make essentially the same claims, save that the Catholic document claims that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and the Orthdox document claims that honor for the Orthodox Church. In any case, the Orthodox certainly agree that salvation is tied to a particular earthly institution:
Basic Principles... 1.15:
In light of the fact that the very first sentence of the document reiterates the claim that the “Church of Christ” is the Orthodox Church, it would seem that the Orthodox believe that salvation is found only in the Orthodox Church (although they fudge the membership of the Orthodox Church in precisely the same way that the CDF fudges membership in the Catholic Church in Dominus Jesus).
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
Greg,
Here is the first sentence of the Orthodox statement fro the web site you referenced:
*1.1. The Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ established by our Lord and Saviour Himself, the Church confirmed and sustained by the Holy Spirit, the Church about which the Saviour Himself has said: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Mt. 16:18). *
Notice that it conveniently leaves out the beginning of verse 18 when Jesus says, “I tell you that you are Peter, and upon this rock”.
That omission speaks volumes!
Here is the first sentence of the Orthodox statement fro the web site you referenced:
*1.1. The Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ established by our Lord and Saviour Himself, the Church confirmed and sustained by the Holy Spirit, the Church about which the Saviour Himself has said: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Mt. 16:18). *
Notice that it conveniently leaves out the beginning of verse 18 when Jesus says, “I tell you that you are Peter, and upon this rock”.
That omission speaks volumes!
- Status