T
Teek
Guest
Yep. I was not making that stuff up.
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T
Teek
Guest
Where in Scripture?God is what he is. His creation is his will, not out of respect but for his own Glory so says scripture.
He created us for His glory, yes, but it is more complicated than that, because He is Love. Being who He is is the pinnacle of Glory: and He is love. He is not a controlling God, but a God that offers us a choice. He made us to know, love, and serve Him. All of us—every single one of us was made for this. There is no real love without free will because there is no choice, and Love is a free gift of self. And there are those that choose not to serve Him, not to love Him. So there is a real choice.
Saint Irenaeus: “The glory of God is man fully alive.” We come to true life through grace. We receive grace by our choices—by freely answering God’s invitation.
If I cannot choose, I cannot be at fault. There are legal cases where a person is not considered at fault because of diminished free will due to emotional factors, or psychological factors. There is a strong moral argument for diminished culpability due to the inability to freely choose to sin or avoid sin. However, there remains a vast majority of cases in which a person is considered to have made an evil choice, a bad choice, to have committed a wrong, and therefor there is guilt.“If we don’t have free will, we are just complex chemical reactions responding to the environment. There would be no fault, no innocence or guilt. It would all just be the way it is. No justice”
Why do you make this statement as if it’s self evident that this could not be possible?
In a case in which a person is crazy and kills another person, they committed a crime and are not considered guilty. This would be the case if we did not have free will. This would be the case for any and every single act committed. No real choice. You would just be a ball in a complex pinball machine bouncing off of your environment with no ability to change direction. It would not be freedom. We would be programmed.
2
2towers
Guest
Our sole mission here: to serve and glorify God, love our neighbors, keep HIS commandments, and to get to heaven.
T
Teek
Guest
He is God and so He can, if He chooses. The Pharoah’s heart was hardened. All people who choose sin have that as a result. And a darkened intellect. Sin is bad for your humanity.Your definition of respect of our free will does not fit with scripture. Scripture tells us that God will and has disrupted the free will of Men to serve his purposes. The Egyptian Pharaoh in exodus is one case in point.
If God is good, and He controls us to do evil, then we have a problem. Evil in the world designed and caused by a loving God? The only way to have a good God, and evil in the world, is if man has a choice—free will.
T
Teek
Guest
Romans 8:15-17The God of the bible clearly does all things for and seeks all things to Glorify himself! He will share his Glory with no one!
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!”
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have obtained accessto this grace in which we stand, and werejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
Why does Paul have this hope?
Because of the words of the Second Person of the Trinity:
John 17:22
22 The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
The vision also helped motivate me to get a lot stronger with my own Catholicism. I made the exact same mistake as you when I first read it. I thought all those kids were going to hell for the minor little things they did. I wasn’t viewing it in terms of small bad habits lead to worse ones, which is a much more reasonable perspective.That vision is one of the reasons I am a catholic now. Incredible how much good fear can do to people. Nevertheless I was wrong. Because I thought one can go to hell by stealing stationery, or going out of the bedroom in the night like the kids in Don Bosco’s school. (Was it a school?) But if you read the whole book (Is it a book?) you can see that that was a warning. Nonetheless you go to hell by sins of impurity, of course.
I probably need to read more about Don Bosco and his dreams.
T
Teek
Guest
We are accountable for our actions because we chose that action—whether we are held accountable or not.We are accountable for our actions simply because we are held accountable.
Otherwise, it is the way my son used to think it was when he was three. If he didn’t get caught—it didn’t happen—it wasn’t his fault!!
T
Teek
Guest
Then, it you believe this is true, when you do something kind for someone and they feel over whelming gratitude, or when someone falls in love with something they think is beautiful about you: don’t flatter yourself. It wasn’t you.This alone shows that whoever, or whatever is making the choice I act on it is not me.
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T
Teek
Guest
Because I have a soul that is not subject to neurological studies. One of the faculties of my soul is my will. Which is free.How is it that you believe you CAN make a choice apart from your innate nature and the subconscious influences which effect your propensities to choose? In this age of advanced Neurological studies an ever increasing abundance of evidence seems to indicate that there are so many factors which may influence the choices you make which you yourself are not aware of that the concept of truly free will is at best a delusion.
T
Teek
Guest
What if His will was for you to be free to love Him? Could He have free enough will to will that?Will of the only one who definitionally could have a free will…GOD.
T
Teek
Guest
Well, I sat and thought about that one for a few minutes, and I still haven’t decided how I want to approach it. Maybe whoever, or whatever is controlling me put me on hold.Science has shown that my choices are made microseconds, if not seconds before I am even aware of them. This alone shows that whoever, or whatever is making the choice I act on it is not me.
Truly, we are also physical beings and we do have physiological reactions, instincts, reflexes. But we also have an immaterial soul, with a will, intellect, memory. It is what sets us apart from the rest of Creation.
You matter. What you choose matters. Every detail of you matters. Don’t sell yourself short. You are the Son or Daughter of the Almighty, All-powerful Creator of the Universe. You are cherished for who you are, for every choice that you make. You have value especially because of the free choices you make. The rest of physical creation gives God glory by being what He created them to be. You get to give God glory by what you choose to be, because He created you in His image and likeness.
That is a gift.
T
Teek
Guest
If I missed any of the points that you brought up, please let me know. I tried to respond to all of them, because you gave a thorough response. Thank you!
T
Teek
Guest
Joshua 24:14-15This alone shows that whoever, or whatever is making the choice I act on it is not me.
14 “Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River, and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Am’orites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
S
Socrates92
Guest
“If faith is a matter of frightening people… not faith because it’s not based on divine love.”
Technically correct. The fear does not equal faith. The damned themselves are fearful, although they have no virtue, faith included. You could think of fear as a catalyst to faith. It is one way in which one may be inspired or motivated to embrace faith.
It’s a little mind boggling how a lot of people seem to imply that (correct me if this is not your intention) that there is something wrong with fear because it is not faith. Faith (as well as Charity) is more important, but that does not mean fear is contrary to faith. It is insufficient (without Faith), but still helpful.
I could also argue another strong connection between the fear and faith. Any good act motivated by a fear of Hell is in itself an (albeit imperfect perhaps) act of Faith, as one could not logically be frightened of something he doesn’t believe in. Fear of the boogeyman isn’t about to inspire me to be good anytime soon. The key factor is whether the person is moved by fear to change (implicit act of faith) or not (implicitly rejecting faith by rejecting the reality of Hell - any obstinacy in mortal sin when confronted with the reality of hell requires either rejection of the teaching, or some serious cognitive dissonance, which is essentially the same thing). Refusal to fear Hell implies a refusal to believe. I am talking about the case of the average Joe, of course, not some saintly individual in the 7th mansion who is without presumption able to be assured of his salvation. Such a person would not need to fear Hell, but that fact isn’t overly relevant to you and me.
Assuming you are correct about the Scott Hahn quote, Dr. Hahn is simply wrong, as omgriley also pointed out.
Technically correct. The fear does not equal faith. The damned themselves are fearful, although they have no virtue, faith included. You could think of fear as a catalyst to faith. It is one way in which one may be inspired or motivated to embrace faith.
It’s a little mind boggling how a lot of people seem to imply that (correct me if this is not your intention) that there is something wrong with fear because it is not faith. Faith (as well as Charity) is more important, but that does not mean fear is contrary to faith. It is insufficient (without Faith), but still helpful.
I could also argue another strong connection between the fear and faith. Any good act motivated by a fear of Hell is in itself an (albeit imperfect perhaps) act of Faith, as one could not logically be frightened of something he doesn’t believe in. Fear of the boogeyman isn’t about to inspire me to be good anytime soon. The key factor is whether the person is moved by fear to change (implicit act of faith) or not (implicitly rejecting faith by rejecting the reality of Hell - any obstinacy in mortal sin when confronted with the reality of hell requires either rejection of the teaching, or some serious cognitive dissonance, which is essentially the same thing). Refusal to fear Hell implies a refusal to believe. I am talking about the case of the average Joe, of course, not some saintly individual in the 7th mansion who is without presumption able to be assured of his salvation. Such a person would not need to fear Hell, but that fact isn’t overly relevant to you and me.
Assuming you are correct about the Scott Hahn quote, Dr. Hahn is simply wrong, as omgriley also pointed out.
S
setarcos
Guest
You are not following scripture. God deprives Pharaoh of the choice, to repent and change, to serve his own will. We have all sinned. Pharaoh didn’t choose evil. He was acting in perfect accordance with his culture and understanding. We all do. We may however with Gods grace follow a will in opposition to this for the good. Pharaoh was deliberately and directly deprived of this possibility. It is because God acted to harden Pharaohs heart that it is quite possible that Pharaoh would have, if left up to his own will, had a change of “heart” and chosen to obey the will of Moses’s God. God acted in accordance with his will in order to glorify his name and no fault can be found in this…he is after all, God. He can do what he wants with his creation according to his rules.
The problem is men try to contain God within their own definitions of good and evil and force him to abide by their conceptions. Because of this we inevitably run in to contradiction. We define the good through Gods will, anything acting in accordance with Gods will is good, anything acting in opposition to Gods will is evil. God defines the good according to his will period. This is why an act of God cannot be judged evil when compared to an equal act of man which can. To label such an action in application to God by applying the standards applicable to man would be meaningless. Evil exists in spite of the existence of an all powerful “good” God because God defines his own actions and those actions he defines for men do not apply to him. Evil exists in relating man to man, in the reference frame of the creature, not in relating God to man. A choice made by man may be deemed evil but this choice does not in itself create the hell which the man may find himself in as a consequence. That hell is created and sustained by God. Hell does not exist of its own accord simply as a natural result of apposing Gods will but as a created consequence by God to satisfy his own defined justice. To the creature in heaven in which all temptation has been conquered and destroyed there is absolutely no difference between fighting the good fight to get there and being created there in the first place. The difference resides in God not the creature and it is for Gods own good pleasure and Glory not the creatures.The only way to have a good God, and evil in the world, is if man has a choice—free will.
S
setarcos
Guest
Yes, I’m glad you brought up these verses. This is why I am here, to clarify seeming contradictions and hopefully gain in wisdom. Unfortunately you didn’t follow through to the end in order to clarify this for me. This is not a game of last one who quotes the bible wins. You didn’t address why God says he will share his glory with no one and yet seems to change his mind which is impossible for God to do. How can we share in Gods glory if he will not share it? On the one hand we presumably have God himself saying he will not share his glory, on the other we have Paul hoping he will. Who do we believe, Paul or God? Reread Isaiah.
S
setarcos
Guest
You need to reword this. It is illogical to say we are held accountable …whether we are held accountable.We are accountable for our actions because we chose that action—whether we are held accountable or not.
That being said I believe your simply saying we choose an action and dependent upon our choice of action this dictates whether the consequence is good or bad which is our accountability? This belies the fact that accountability has to be established before our actions can be judged by it. Who establishes the accountability? You yourself said that without God there can be no fault. With an existent God fault is established through Gods defining accountability. You would be wise to pay attention to the unadulterated thoughts of little children. They are closer to God than you give your son credit for. His thinking is right. A child equates getting caught with accountability. If there is no one or no thing to define accountability then then there is no fault in ones actions. However, because we believe in an existent God who defines accountability and is omniscient unfortunately for the child though he may believe he didn’t get caught and consequently will have no accountability he did not and will. God does not blink and is the perfect recording device.
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setarcos
Guest
I don’t flatter myself for this reason. It is not of my own accord that these other things take place it is by the grace of God. This is why pride is the ultimate sin and what caused Satan’s downfall. Our talents, abilities, our capabilities, our actions, are all dictated by the graces God has given us. We do not create our own intelligence, our own compassion, our own emotions, our own beauty. These are granted individually by God.
S
setarcos
Guest
If your soul is the seat of your will which is enacted through you consciousness and this consciousness is existent in the physical realm and can be effected by it as evidenced by its actions then you cannot say that your soul is somehow insulated from neurological studies of behavior. This would be like saying that I cannot determine anything about the driver of a car by studying the cars behavior even though I cannot see the driver.
S
setarcos
Guest
Even Gods will is self limited to his own nature. His nature is such that he cannot cause contradiction. God can only do what is possible, even for him. In order to have a truly free will one must be self aware of the source of all factors which motivates ones will to act at all times. In order for this to occur one would have to be a God. God cannot create true freedom without creating other Gods.
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