Don't Confuse Me With The Facts!

  • Thread starter Thread starter The_Wizard
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

The_Wizard

Guest
I was told just today that the Catholic Church in the past forbid its’ members from reading the bible and even today discourages the practice. I immediately asked where they got that idea and they said it is a FACT of history.

Their mind is made up and they don’t want to be confuse with the facts (truth). But I would like to be better prepared for the next time. Please recommend books and or articles that cover this lie about the Catholic Church.
 
“Prove it” really does wonders. Obviously the person was just repeating something, without any understanding or research.

Just a few things to keep in mind.

-Bibles were often chained, to keep people from walking off with them. Other books were also chained, especially back when the cost of hand-copying a book was enormous, in materials and labor.
despectacledlibrarian.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/hereford-cathedral-chained-library.jpg

-Catholics were sometimes forbidden from reading unauthorized translations. The concern was that these translations often had a theological agenda that went against the Catholic faith.

-The first vernacular bibles were Catholic bibles. That wasn’t done for the convenience of the priests.

-Protestants who attend Catholic Masses sometimes comment in surprise at how much scripture they hear. Not to mention the Liturgy of the Hours.

You could challenge this person to come to Mass (and Evening Prayer?) and see how much scripture is present.
 
I was told just today that the Catholic Church in the past forbid its’ members from reading the bible and even today discourages the practice. I immediately asked where they got that idea and they said it is a FACT of history.

Their mind is made up and they don’t want to be confuse with the facts (truth). But I would like to be better prepared for the next time. Please recommend books and or articles that cover this lie about the Catholic Church.
The reality is that up until about 150 years ago, and only in the west, the vast majority of people could not read the bible if they wanted to. They were illiterate. That is why the bible is read, and has always been read, during mass.

If the Catholic church didn’t want people reading the bible then why has it always read the bible to it members? Hmm?

Now the church has forbid certain translations of the bible produced by heretics. You now the ones that omit the parts of the bible they don’t like. Like Martin Luther did.
But the church has never…never…forbid the reading of the true bible.
 
These are all answer I put forward but coming for me carried little weight. I really think even Jesus came and told them what they thought was wrong they still would not believe it. But at least if I could reference scholarly work I would feel better.
 
These are all answer I put forward but coming for me carried little weight. I really think even Jesus came and told them what they thought was wrong they still would not believe it. But at least if I could reference scholarly work I would feel better.
The accusation is coming from him. Therefore the burden of proof comes from him.

He said it is an historical fact. O.K. it is his responsibility to provide those facts. Otherwise, it is to be considered false.
 
The bigot admitted that he was lying, that he had no source. What more do you want?
 
The reality is that up until about 150 years ago, and only in the west, the vast majority of people could not read the bible if they wanted to.
And also, the printed press was introduced in Europe in the late XV Century. For the previous 12 or 13 centuries, the only way to duplicate the Sacred Scripture was to copy it by hand (without even mentioning that it took 3 or 4 centuries for the Bible to be brought together as we know it).

Without the heroic efforts of monks throughout the centuries, we would not even have the Bible today - they were the Lord’s instrument in preserving the written part of the Deposit of Faith. . Beautifully illuminated copies of the Scriptures, wrought by the monks, were in the charge of the clergy, and through them the Word of God was carefully preached to the people.

It is quite interesting that one of the first testimonies on the Gutemberg Bible (first printed Bible) comes from a future Pope (Pius II) who wrote to a cardinal:
All that has been written to me about that marvelous man seen at Frankfurt is true. I have not seen complete Bibles but only a number of quires of various books of the Bible. The script was very neat and legible, not at all difficult to follow—your grace would be able to read it without effort, and indeed without glasses.
Clearly the hierarchy of the Church did not have a negative view of what was happening.

And even then, the first versions of the Gutemberg Bible were quite expensive!

In general, up to the present day, Holy Church, mindful of even the Lord’s particular recommendations to His chosen apostles and their own writings and actions on these matters, teaches that the private reading of the Bible with reliance solely upon one’s own powers of comprehension is no sure way to arrive at the truth taught by Christ. And experience bears out her teaching.

She condemns the principle that Bibles should be distributed indiscriminately to people on the understanding that they will be able to attain the truth without the guidance of the Church, and by their own unaided efforts. The wildest absurdities have resulted from the theory of private interpretation of Scripture. There seem to be thousands of conflicting plans of salvation, all revealed by the one Christ. Thus St. Peter says that “no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation” and that in Scripture there are certain things “hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”

The Church did not condemn the doctrine that it is good to read Scripture, but rather the theory that it is necessary to do so in order to attain Christian knowledge. Christ’s method was to establish a teaching Church, it being necessary to be taught by that Church. He did not order the Apostles to multiply and scatter copies of the Scriptures. If the reading of Scripture were necessary to salvation, what of the immense number of Christians through all the centuries prior to the invention of printing, when it was impossible to transcribe by hand sufficient copies for the multitudes? Could Christ make the possibility of His religion dependent upon the invention of the printing machine?

Unfortunately this is one of those “hard teachings” that most of our Christian brothers cannot listen to, simply because the issue is not the Bible, but the authority of the Church. If they were to learn the history of the Church and of Scripture, read the Church Fathers, and acknowledge the facts, then it would be obvious to them that ever since the Early Church things have been done the way the Catholic Church does them today - through the authority of the successors of the apostles that brought the Gospel to the ends of the world even for centuries before there was a Bible. This leads the disciple of Christ to a significant turning point: do I prefer to blindly trust the men that founded my church, and Luther that developed the concepts of sola fide and sola scriptura, or do I prefer to follow the truth, even if this means a radical change? Many Christian brothers who entered the Church through this narrow gate will witness that is is not an easy thing, but that it was worthy.
 
I was told just today that the Catholic Church in the past forbid its’ members from reading the bible and even today discourages the practice.
Well, it obviously can’t be a discouraged practice today, because pious reading of Sacred Scripture for at least a half-hour is granted a plenary indulgence by the Church. Indulgences That should make your opponents really mad. 🙂
 
Well, it obviously can’t be a discouraged practice today, because pious reading of Sacred Scripture for at least a half-hour is granted a plenary indulgence by the Church. Indulgences That should make your opponents really mad. 🙂
I was watching EWTN last night and they were talking about this. The priest said there has always been an indulgence attached to scripture reading
 
I think it’s fun to ask someone like that where his version of the Bible came from . . . . do Protestants really think it just fell from the sky all bound up with gilded pages, red ribbons and tabbed indexes somewhere in the late 16th century?

Sometimes, putting the questions back to them makes them stop to think. As already posted, no, Catholics were never forbidden from reading Scripture, it’s just that the few remaining originals and painstakingly created copies were chained in Church to keep them from being stolen.

But even if the person asking believes it true that Catholics don’t have a Bible . . . .how could they be sure there’s is accurate if they had nothing until the late 1500’s???

I think it freaks Protestants out when they learn their versions of Scripture came from our Catholic Bible
 
I was just listening to an old Karl Keating vs. Dave Hunt tape & that was brought up. Karl explained that it was a particular area that was having problems with heresy. Since people were reading the Bible but coming away with the wrong ideas, Bible reading was temporarily banned.

You should be able to find that info somewhere on this site.
 
I was told just today that the Catholic Church in the past forbid its’ members from reading the bible and even today discourages the practice. I immediately asked where they got that idea and they said it is a FACT of history.

Their mind is made up and they don’t want to be confuse with the facts (truth). But I would like to be better prepared for the next time. Please recommend books and or articles that cover this lie about the Catholic Church.
Well, if true it wasn’t a bad idea. The church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15) after all, while a variety and great diversity of untruths are often arrived at by eager bible devotees, as evidenced by the many different beliefs held by the sola scriptura crowd. Aside from that the majority of church members for the majority of the church’s history were illiterate anyway.
 
I have a non-Catholic friend in her 80’s who insists that Catholics weren’t suppose to read the Bible. My 85 year old mother told me the same thing. I have told them that it wasn’t true. We have a Bible study at our parish so I assume we aren’t still discouraged from reading it.😉

I think showing a Catholic Bible to someone can also demonstrate that that is false.

I had an Evangelical facebook friend praise Tyndale for printing the Bible so we all could read it. :banghead: I didn’t respond.
 
Here’s a quote from Pope Leo the XIII’s 1893 encyclical on the study of Holy Scripture:

"Nowhere is there anything more full or more express on the subject of the Saviour of the world than is to be found in the whole range of the Bible. As St. Jerome says, "To be ignorant of the Scripture is not to know Christ."
 
I was told just today that the Catholic Church in the past forbid its’ members from reading the bible and even today discourages the practice. I immediately asked where they got that idea and they said it is a FACT of history.

Their mind is made up and they don’t want to be confuse with the facts (truth). But I would like to be better prepared for the next time. Please recommend books and or articles that cover this lie about the Catholic Church.
Aside from the very good replies so far on this thread, I have several Catholic editions of the Bible from the late 1800’s I show them to those who make the assertions that the Church forbid Catholics from reading the Bible in particular the indulgences for prayerful reading and meditationg on the Scriptures and the prayers to the Holy Ghost to enlighten the hearts of the reader. Nothing like showing them that and asking if their KJV or other Protestant sponsored bibles have the same encoragement appended to the introductory pages.
 
The reality is that up until about 150 years ago, and only in the west, the vast majority of people could not read the bible if they wanted to. They were illiterate. That is why the bible is read, and has always been read, during mass.

If the Catholic church didn’t want people reading the bible then why has it always read the bible to it members? Hmm?

Now the church has forbid certain translations of the bible produced by heretics. You now the ones that omit the parts of the bible they don’t like. Like Martin Luther did.
But the church has never…never…forbid the reading of the true bible.
Just to clarify, Luther’s translation included all 73 books typically found in a western Bible,
Plus the Prayer of Manasseh . In a western sense, he left nothing
out.

Jon
 
Anybody claiming that the Council of Trent placed the bible on the list of “prohibited books” needs to cite the document where this was done. They can’t, because it is a ludicrously false charge.
 
I was told just today that the Catholic Church in the past forbid its’ members from reading the bible and even today discourages the practice. I immediately asked where they got that idea and they said it is a FACT of history.

Their mind is made up and they don’t want to be confuse with the facts (truth). But I would like to be better prepared for the next time. Please recommend books and or articles that cover this lie about the Catholic Church.
Try this book…Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism:

Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians” [Paperback]

It might be available at your local library.
 
The accusation is coming from him. Therefore the burden of proof comes from him.

He said it is an historical fact. O.K. it is his responsibility to provide those facts. Otherwise, it is to be considered false.
If they do come up with a reference, i.e. title, author and page number, and I can not cite a reference that counters their reference where does that leave me. According to your statement above my position is consider false.

That is why I asked for specific books and or articles that I could reference to counter their claims. Making statements without something to backup them up is just blowing hot air. So far the reply to this thread, although well meaning, have not given me the help I need. Maybe someone out there can point me in the right direction to the reference I am looking for.
 
If they do come up with a reference, i.e. title, author and page number, and I can not cite a reference that counters their reference where does that leave me. According to your statement above my position is consider false.

That is why I asked for specific books and or articles that I could reference to counter their claims. Making statements without something to backup them up is just blowing hot air. So far the reply to this thread, although well meaning, have not given me the help I need. Maybe someone out there can point me in the right direction to the reference I am looking for.
I think this is what you are looking for…the guy who has this website spent time debunking such claims:

philvaz.com/apologetics/apolog.htm

If they do come with a reference, bring it here and we can further help you. You do not need to respond right away. Tell them you will study and explore their reference.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top