Don't Jews need to be baptize and accept Christ?

[TMC]

Are you kidding? Did you read who I am?

No, sorry, no offense meant, but I do not know who you are.

The last time I participated in a “can Jews be saved” thread, I got into a bit of an argument with some folks who insisted that today’s Jews are not “real” Jews, but are rather part of a novel and “made up” religion. That is an argument made in some circles, as you may know. Just don’t want to rehash that all over again. If that was not your intent, I apologize and we can move on.

 

[steido01]

No person’s salvation is assured, Jew or Gentile. Christians believe that following Christ is the more sure path. But the Church teaches that other paths, however less certain, can also lead to salvation.

And I’m reminded again of why I’ll never swim the Tiber. To abandon the sweet surety of the Gospel for a mere flitter of hope when, apparently, my chances are equally good where I stand? Guess I’ll stay happily, invincibly ignorant, thanks.

Christ is more than just a “more sure path.” He is entirely the sure path. I’ll take God’s word over your document’s:
“I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through Me.”

If non-Christians are saved, it is due to God’s great mercy and grace, through Christ alone. That is not limiting God, that is acknowledging the limit God instituted.

 

[TMC]

And I’m reminded again of why I’ll never swim the Tiber. To abandon the sweet surety of the Gospel for a mere flitter of hope when, apparently, my chances are equally good where I stand? Guess I’ll stay happily, invincibly ignorant, thanks.

Christ is more than just a “more sure path.” He is entirely the sure path. I’ll take God’s word over your document’s:
“I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through Me.”

If non-Christians are saved, it is due to God’s great mercy and grace, through Christ alone. That is not limiting God, that is acknowledging the limit God instituted.

Where did I say to abandon the Gospel? Where did I say that a non-Christian’s chances of salvation are “equally good?” If you want to disagree with me, it might be helpful by starting with what I actually said.

 

[steido01]

No, sorry, no offense meant, but I do not know who you are.

Fourth paragraph in my first post.

The last time I participated in a “can Jews be saved” thread, I got into a bit of an argument with some folks who insisted that today’s Jews are not “real” Jews, but are rather part of a novel and “made up” religion. That is an argument made in some circles, as you may know. Just don’t want to rehash that all over again. If that was not your intent, I apologize and we can move on.

No worries. I’m certainly not saying that today’s Jews are “not Jews.” I come from them. I have close family who still remain.

I’m simply saying that we’re either naive or playing a game of “Who can be more politically correct?” if we don’t acknowledge that times and people have changed greatly. We really must determine who Paul was talking about if we want to understand what this means. Once we understand Paul, we can understand whether your document was essentially granting a blanket pardon for any Jew of any sort anywhere, or whether it’s acknowledging the simple truth that we have a merciful and loving God who keeps promises and that it is outside of human understanding to know how God chooses to apply that love and mercy (apart from those who’ve been baptized into Christ, of course, who receive the fullness of that Gospel Promise).

 

[steido01]

Where did I say to abandon the Gospel? Where did I say that a non-Christian’s chances of salvation are “equally good?” If you want to disagree with me, it might be helpful by starting with what I actually said.

You said:

Christians believe that following Christ is the more sure path.

This implies that a Christian cannot be assured of his salvation. This denies the Gospel by diminishing Christ to simply ‘the best option among many,’ rather than the only true Savior.

 

[meltzerboy]

You said:

This implies that a Christian cannot be assured of his salvation. This denies the Gospel by diminishing Christ to simply ‘the best option among many,’ rather than the only true Savior.

I guess your last statement depends in part on what you mean by Christian. That is, if one is a Christian in name only but does not behave as a Christian, does this assure that Christian person will be saved? Or if one has Christian faith, but does not show their faith in righteous behavior toward others, does this assure that Christian person will be saved? Finally, how can any Christian (or non-Christian) know for sure they will be saved? Would not such certainty be an admission of arrogant pride in that they are certain of something that only G-d can know? And, by the way, does not the dominant desire to be saved have in it just a touch of selfishness or self-centeredness to the exclusion of the fate of others who may not be so fortunate?

 

[James248]

And I’m reminded again of why I’ll never swim the Tiber. To abandon the sweet surety of the Gospel for a mere flitter of hope when, apparently, my chances are equally good where I stand? Guess I’ll stay happily, invincibly ignorant, thanks.

Christ is more than just a “more sure path.” He is entirely the sure path. I’ll take God’s word over your document’s:
“I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through Me.”

If non-Christians are saved, it is due to God’s great mercy and grace, through Christ alone. That is not limiting God, that is acknowledging the limit God instituted.

Okay. From the posts of rcwitness, Ite ad Ioseph, and I, can you get this conclusion? Because you are clearly being deceived if you get the impression that the Catholic Church teaches those who don’t accept Christ can’t enter Heaven. TMC isn’t speaking on Christ’s behalf here.

 

[steido01]

Okay. From the posts of rcwitness, Ite ad Ioseph, and I, can you get this conclusion? Because you are clearly being deceived if you get the impression that the Catholic Church teaches those who don’t accept Christ can’t enter Heaven. TMC isn’t speaking on Christ’s behalf here.

Oh, it doesn’t come from you, friend. In reading this thread, I find the three of you to be explaining the teaching of the church and Scripture fairly well.

I was responding to TMC to demonstrate how his views, which he might consider more inviting to non-Christians, actually undercut the c/Catholic cause entirely. The new ecumenical movement is no ecumenism at all. I would rather we discuss serious differences of belief openly than gloss over them with countless ambiguous documents that require further and further clarification.

 

[TMC]

You said:

This implies that a Christian cannot be assured of his salvation. This denies the Gospel by diminishing Christ to simply ‘the best option among many,’ rather than the only true Savior.

Are you suggesting that every person who adopts the title “Christian” is guaranteed salvation?

 

[TMC]

Oh, it doesn’t come from you, friend. In reading this thread, I find the three of you to be explaining the teaching of the church and Scripture fairly well.

I was responding to TMC to demonstrate how his views, which he might consider more inviting to non-Christians, actually undercut the c/Catholic cause entirely. The new ecumenical movement is no ecumenism at all. I would rather we discuss serious differences of belief openly than gloss over them with countless ambiguous documents that require further and further clarification.

I am not trying to be inviting or disinviting to anyone. I am not even advocating one position over another. I am merely setting out what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I understand that you disagree with the Church, which is your prerogative.

 

[steido01]

I guess your last statement depends in part on what you mean by Christian.

Yes, it certainly does.

That is, if one is a Christian in name only but does not behave as a Christian, does this assure that Christian person will be saved? Or if one has Christian faith, but does not show their faith in righteous behavior toward others, does this assure that Christian person will be saved?

I like your first sentence, but I would change “behave” to “believe.” If the individual believes as a Christian ought to, the behavior will follow. Good works are certainly the fruit of a saving faith, and are a wonderful proof of the true Christian’s rebirth. Your second question seemed to anticipate that answer. But I think it mistakenly places the focus on the created rather than the Creator. The question isn’t whether one must do good works in order to be saved (which you may be right to identify as selfish), because God doesn’t need our good works. To Him, our good works are about as valuable as a rusty tin can (someone can find the Bo Giertz reference for me). But our neighbors need those good works. And so we follow that second Great Commandment Rabbi Hillel understood from the Law and the Prophets and that Jesus confirmed: love your neighbor as yourself.

Finally, how can any Christian (or non-Christian) know for sure they will be saved? Would not such certainty be an admission of arrogant pride in that they are certain of something that only G-d can know? And, by the way, does not the dominant desire to be saved have in it just a touch of selfishness or self-centeredness to the exclusion of the fate of others who may not be so fortunate?

The dominant desire of a Christian is not so much to be saved, but to conform to God’s Will in thanks for the gifts he has received. God’s Will is for all to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the Truth. So in that regard, the desire to be saved - to return to communion with God - is not sinful. It is the desire of a repentant heart.

I’m sorry if you feel I haven’t answered those questions to your satisfaction. They were posed in a way that placed the impetus on man to save himself. That’s a paradigm that I don’t see supported in Scripture.

 

[PJM]

Don’t we sound like Sola Scripturists?

Mark 16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

FOR SHARING GOD"S SINGULAR TRUTHS:shrug:

Blessings

 

[steido01]

Are you suggesting that every person who adopts the title “Christian” is guaranteed salvation?

By no means! There are many self-professed Christians who most certainly are not. Even we baptized Christians can choose to apostatize. Yet I do not presume to know the heart of someone who does; that is for God alone. I can only judge their teachings and their works.

For example, if Joseph Smith actually believed the tripe that came out of his mouth, he likely wasn’t a Christian. But we do not know his heart, so we cannot say silly things like “That dude’s definitely condemned.” We can say, however, that he who believes and is baptized will be saved.

 

[steve_b]

I feel like I read a few catholic documents recently, most important one called “the calling of God is irrevocable” (though it’s labeled non-magisterial) which says that the Jews are saved through the old covenant. I forget if this forum has a must-post-thing-being-talked-about policy; if so my mistake. But if so, this seems untrue to me.

Several points

• When Jesus was transfigured on top of Mt Tabor, who was present
• The Father
• Jesus
• Peter, James, John,
• Moses and Elijah (represented the law and the prophets of the OT)

What did the Father say about Jesus?

• Matthew 17:5

God the Father said this for all those present for their benefit to show who Jesus is, and for them to do what Jesus said. AND show where it all comes from just in case there is still any doubt.

• The OT figures, were to hear and learn this because Jesus is who they were pointing to in the future but didn’t know it then. Even though they are in spirit form, Heaven is not open to them yet. Jesus hasn’t finished His work.
• Peter and the apostles, were being confirmed who Jesus is.
• as an aside, imagine the NT & OT figures, able to see and talk with each other, separated by 1000’s of years.

to another point,
If the OT could get one to heaven, and the OT was all that one needed, there would be no need for the New Testament.

other points Jesus makes

• Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,** 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons…
• Matt 15: 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[e] 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

Jesus is demonstrating, He is giving His people the Jews, the people of the Old covenant, 1st right of refusal to accept HIM, and the new and everlasting covenant around HIM, and He is putting full attention to that goal personally, and asking the same of His apostles. As a result, the Church in the beginning was 100% Jewish.

Jews however, were split between themselves, those who accepted Jesus vs those who didn’t.**

 

[steido01]

Whoops! Looks like you pasted my name where his was meant to go.

Perhaps a Moderator can fix?

Thank you for that reassurance. I hope our paths cross again in the future.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes, it certainly does.

I like your first sentence, but I would change “behave” to “believe.” If the individual believes as a Christian ought to, the behavior will follow. Good works are certainly the fruit of a saving faith, and are a wonderful proof of the true Christian’s rebirth. Your second question seemed to anticipate that answer. But I think it mistakenly places the focus on the created rather than the Creator. The question isn’t whether one must do good works in order to be saved (which you may be right to identify as selfish), because God doesn’t need our good works. To Him, our good works are about as valuable as a rusty tin can (someone can find the Bo Giertz reference for me). But our neighbors need those good works. And so we follow that second Great Commandment Rabbi Hillel understood from the Law and the Prophets and that Jesus confirmed: love your neighbor as yourself.

The dominant desire of a Christian is not so much to be saved, but to conform to God’s Will in thanks for the gifts he has received. God’s Will is for all to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the Truth. So in that regard, the desire to be saved - to return to communion with God - is not sinful. It is the desire of a repentant heart.

I’m sorry if you feel I haven’t answered those questions to your satisfaction. They were posed in a way that placed the impetus on man to save himself. That’s a paradigm that I don’t see supported in Scripture.

I do not entirely agree with all you say here although parts of it sound reasonable to me. I do not expect you to agree with everything I say either; if you did, we would be on exactly the same page with regard to our religious beliefs, which of course we are not.

For example, I do believe it is mankind’s choice, by virtue of his free will, to “save” himself. However, just as you believe it is G-d’s grace or initiative, I too, in a slightly different language, believe it is G-d’s guidance in the form of the Law that helps us very much follow the morally correct path. Yet whether or not we abide by the Law is our own decision since G-d allows us to choose freely. We must, however, understand that in Judaism–and perhaps you already know this since you state you are of Jewish origin–the Law per se is not designed for salvation in the Christian sense of heavenly communion with G-d. Indeed salvation, according to Judaism, is behaving in a morally righteous way toward G-d and others (humans, animals, all of Creation), and even toward ourselves during our earthly life. In this sense, G-d does need our good works since our behavior, if sincere, has the capacity to change the world, or to repair the holes in it. Judaism teaches that the universe was intentionally created less than perfect, and it is up to us, through our actions guided by faith in the Law, to patch up its imperfections. G-d has an unchangeable partnership with us, all of us, not only Jews: we do our share and He does His. Day-to-day behavior is the key process in Judaism; faith or belief alone will not suffice. And Jesus understood this when He said that the way we behave towards the least of these is equivalent to the way we behave toward Him. He also said that faith is demonstrated through our actions. We need that kind of faith and it is also pleasing to G-d, Who rejoices and mourns with us.

 

[James248]

Are you suggesting that every person who adopts the title “Christian” is guaranteed salvation?

No. A person who is Christian and in a state of grace at death is guaranteed salvation.

 

[TMC]

What have I done to merit such hateful defamation from you? How is it that quoting the Church’s own teaching is somehow denying the primacy of Christ?

 

[meltzerboy]

Correct me if I am wrong Meltzerboy, I just wanted to add, on the High Holidays, there is a yearly service where people are forgiven for sins. I have also heard that in Judaism, that if a sin is committed, and then temptation is resisted three times, the sin is “abated” until the High Holidays service. Have I got my facts straight?

I would have to check your second question. With regard to the High Holy Days, sins committed directly against G-d can be forgiven with sincere prayer; however, sins committed against another human being can be pardoned only if one makes the effort to ask forgiveness from the person whom you have wronged. Repentance is more than prayer; it also includes turning away from hurtful, immoral behavior onto a more just and merciful path.

BTW, thank you for your kind words!

 

[meltzerboy]

What is your point?
That we write off all of the Hebrew world now? We don’t. That is an incredibly juvenile statement. The Old Testament foretells, and the New Testament fulfills. But we still want to be called God’s chosen people.They are our spiritual ancestors.
We pray the Psalms at every Mass. There is an OT reading at most of the Masses, (except during the Easter season).
Don’T throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Our friend Meltzerboy could teach people a valuable history lesson if they were willing to learn.

Thank you, pianistclare!