Dont Laugh - Consecration of Goldfish crackers

[Boulder257]

We always bring snacks to Church for my 3 year old son; typically gold fish crackers. Today during Mass when he dropped them all over the floor right at the point of consecration I got to thinking, “I think these are wheat crackers…did they get consecrated?”

It may sound silly, but I am serious. If you were to bring something that matched the definition of unconsecreated bread would it be “automatically” consecreated during the Mass? I certainly wouldn’t think so, but maybe someone can answer this for me.

Thanks!!!

 

[Elizium23]

This is where the priest’s intention counts. In a typical Mass the priest will form his intention to consecrate what’s on or near the corporal. If your son had slipped the crackers into the ciborium for the offertory and they were valid matter, then perhaps. But not dropped on the floor in the nave.

 

[Boulder257]

10-4. Thanks so much for the answer.

 

[Inquiringperson]

We always bring snacks to Church for my 3 year old son; typically gold fish crackers. Today during Mass when he dropped them all over the floor right at the point of consecration I got to thinking, “I think these are wheat crackers…did they get consecrated?”

It may sound silly, but I am serious. If you were to bring something that matched the definition of unconsecreated bread would it be “automatically” consecreated during the Mass? I certainly wouldn’t think so, but maybe someone can answer this for me.

Thanks!!!

Do you mean the cheese goldfish or like animal crackers. Either way, they have too much ingredients so it didn’t get Consecrated.

 

[Elizium23]

Do you mean the cheese goldfish or like animal crackers. Either way, they have too much ingredients so it didn’t get Consecrated.

guess we’re going to have a “valid matter” debate again.

[48] The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.

In my opinion, Goldfish crackers are commonly recognizable as wheat bread. Here is an ingredient list, snagged from various places on the web:

Made with Smiles and Unbleached Enriched Wheat Flour (Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Folic Acid], Cheddar Cheese (Pasteurized Cultured Milk, Salt, Enzymes), Annatto, Vegetable Oils (Canola, Sunflower and/or Soybean), Contains 2 Percent or Less of: Salt, Yeast, Sugar, Spices, Autolyzed Yeast, Leavening: (Monocalcium Phosphate, Ammonium Bicarbonate, Baking Soda) and Onion Powder.

Obviously, there is leavening and cheese and flavoring added, making it illicit, but illicit matter is not invalid.

But the point remains that the OP asked about crackers spilled on the floor, and not anywhere that the priest would intend to consecrate them.

 

[FrDavid96]

guess we’re going to have a “valid matter” debate again.

In my opinion, Goldfish crackers are commonly recognizable as wheat bread. Here is an ingredient list, snagged from various places on the web:

Obviously, there is leavening and cheese and flavoring added, making it illicit, but illicit matter is not invalid.

But the point remains that the OP asked about crackers spilled on the floor, and not anywhere that the priest would intend to consecrate them.

Invalid matter.

Trust me.

 

[FrDavid96]

We always bring snacks to Church for my 3 year old son; typically gold fish crackers. Today during Mass when he dropped them all over the floor right at the point of consecration I got to thinking, “I think these are wheat crackers…did they get consecrated?”

It may sound silly, but I am serious. If you were to bring something that matched the definition of unconsecreated bread would it be “automatically” consecreated during the Mass? I certainly wouldn’t think so, but maybe someone can answer this for me.

Thanks!!!

No problem.

Just to reinforce what’s already been posted.

1. Goldfish crackers are not valid matter for the Eucharist, so a priest could not consecrate them even if he tried.
2. Even if your son dropped unconsecrated hosts that he managed to get from the storage area, it wouldn’t be an issue because the hosts must be on the corporal to be consecrated; if they are anyplace other than “on the corporal” (even on the altar itself) the priest must specifically intend to consecrate them, or it doesn’t happen.

 

[DarrenOglesby]

Yea what everyone else is saying. Matter and Intention.

For instance last year at our Thanksgiving Mass, Father gave every family a loaf of blessed Bread. He had a couple of loafs below the altar. Since it was not his intentions, they were not consecrated. They were blessed though after communion.

 

[Inquiringperson]

Invalid matter.

Trust me.

It’s because of the cheese, right?
By the way, are you actually a priest?

 

[BellsSmells]

Do you mean the cheese goldfish or like animal crackers. Either way, they have too much ingredients so it didn’t get Consecrated.

Don’t be so sure about that. While they obviously did not become transformed it’s not because of “too much ingredients.” Wonder Bread has a lot more than what flower and water in it yet it can be confected (albeit illicitly) into the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[FrDavid96]

Don’t be so sure about that. While they obviously did not become transformed it’s not because of “too much ingredients.” Wonder Bread has a lot more than what flower and water in it yet it can be confected (albeit illicitly) into the Blessed Sacrament.

At best it’s doubtful.

 

[FrDavid96]

It’s because of the cheese, right?
By the way, are you actually a priest?

Not just the cheese and other ingredients…

There’s no doubt that goldfish crackers are “not bread” in the commons sense of the word. That means that we don’t have to take it any further.

There’s a good reason why they’re called “goldfish crackers” and not “goldfish bread” after all.

Just because wheat is the main ingredient in some food, does not (not by any means) indicate that it would be valid matter for the Eucharist.

What I’m saying here is that the starting point is to ask “is it bread?” If the answer is no, then that’s the end of it. Only if the answer is “yes” would we take it to the next step and start looking at the ingredients and the proportions.

 

[FrDavid96]

Don’t be so sure about that. While they obviously did not become transformed it’s not because of “too much ingredients.” Wonder Bread has a lot more than what flower and water in it yet it can be confected (albeit illicitly) into the Blessed Sacrament.

To follow up on the last response which was too brief:

I’m of the opinion that it would not be valid matter. That’s my opinion–the Church has not (to my knowledge) ever answered that definitively. Without hesitation, I would say “it’s doubtful” but that’s the best one can say–meaning that we can’t go any closer to “valid” than to say doubtful.

My point is that no one can say “it is valid matter” except the Holy See. We know with certainty that as soon as anything else is added beyond wheat and water (and yeast in the East) the validity becomes doubtful.

I know what you’re probably thinking here, but let’s leave the Eastern Traditions out of the conversation because that will only be a distraction to those unfamiliar. Suffice to say that what they do is valid and licit, but at the same time very different from what would be bought in a grocery store.

When it comes to commercial bread, no one but the Holy See can actually give a definite answer as to validity. That’s why none of us here on CAF can actually say yes or no, unless the “no” is obvious. Merely to illustrate the point, anyone can say “peanut butter is not valid matter.” But to say “such-and-such is valid matter” is simply not something that we can determine for ourselves–again, unless it’s obvious because it meets all the Church’s standards without question.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

We always bring snacks to Church for my 3 year old son; typically gold fish crackers. Today during Mass when he dropped them all over the floor right at the point of consecration I got to thinking, “I think these are wheat crackers…did they get consecrated?”

It may sound silly, but I am serious. If you were to bring something that matched the definition of unconsecreated bread would it be “automatically” consecreated during the Mass? I certainly wouldn’t think so, but maybe someone can answer this for me.

Thanks!!!

Greetings Boudler257,

I must apologize. I was laughing when I read the title to this thread and while the page was loading.

As others have said Matter and Intention count.

Don’t worry those little goldfish were not consecrated.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[centurionguard]

We always bring snacks to Church for my 3 year old son; typically gold fish crackers. Today during Mass when he dropped them all over the floor right at the point of consecration I got to thinking, “I think these are wheat crackers…did they get consecrated?”

It may sound silly, but I am serious. If you were to bring something that matched the definition of consecrated bread would it be “automatically” consecrated during the Mass? I certainly wouldn’t think so, but maybe someone can answer this for me.

Thanks!!!

You’ll have to forgive me but, when I first read your post and especially where you made an implication of seriousness I thought this was a joke.

Seriously; in all humility I’m not here to ridicule you in anyway whatsoever but I guess I’m just surprised that you would write something like this.

Unless of course you had very little Catechism growing up in the Church it makes what you wrote somewhat understandable.

Maybe I was one of the fortunate ones as a kid who was lucky enough during Catechism classes having Priests, Brothers, and mostly Nuns in full habit unlike today drill into us over and over again the Miracle of Transubstantiation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

And we were made to believe this through an Act of Faith even if we didn’t understand everything that took place on the Altar even before my First Communion.

Nothing that wasn’t on the Holy Altar of Sacrifice ever got consecrated during Mass.

 

[Digitonomy]

St Thomas Aquinas had some views on this question.

I answer that, Some have fallen into various errors about the matter of this sacrament. Some, known as the Artotyrytae, as Augustine says (De Haeres. xxviii), “offer bread and cheese in this sacrament, contending that oblations were celebrated by men in the first ages, from fruits of the earth and sheep.” Others, called Cataphrygae and Pepuziani, “are reputed to have made their Eucharistic bread with infants’ blood drawn from tiny punctures over the entire body, and mixed with flour.” Others, styled Aquarii, under guise of sobriety, offer nothing but water in this sacrament.

TP Q[74] A[1] Body

Now all these and similar errors are excluded by the fact that Christ instituted this sacrament under the species of bread and wine, as is evident from Mt. 26. Consequently, bread and wine are the proper matter of this sacrament. And the reasonableness of this is seen first, in the use of this sacrament, which is eating: for, as water is used in the sacrament of Baptism for the purpose of spiritual cleansing, since bodily cleansing is commonly done with water; so bread and wine, wherewith men are commonly fed, are employed in this sacrament for the use of spiritual eating…

Reply OBJ 3: A moderate mixing does not alter the species, because that little is as it were absorbed by the greater. Consequently, then, if a small quantity of another grain be mixed with a much greater quantity of wheat, bread may be made therefrom so as to be the proper matter of this sacrament; but if the mixing be notable, for instance, half and half; or nearly so, then such mixing alters the species; consequently, bread made therefrom will not be the proper matter of this sacrament.

TP Q[74] A[3] R.O. 4

Reply OBJ 4: Sometimes there is such corruption of the bread that the species of bread is lost, as when the continuity of its parts is destroyed, and the taste, color, and other accidents are changed; hence the body of Christ may not be made from such matter. But sometimes there is not such corruption as to alter the species, but merely disposition towards corruption, which a slight change in the savor betrays, and from such bread the body of Christ may be made: but he who does so, sins from irreverence towards the sacrament. And because starch comes of corrupted wheat, it does not seem as if the body of Christ could be made of the bread made therefrom, although some hold the contrary.

FrDavid96:

There’s no doubt that goldfish crackers are “not bread” in the commons sense of the word. That means that we don’t have to take it any further.

There’s a good reason why they’re called “goldfish crackers” and not “goldfish bread” after all.

I don’t think that is a very useful angle to approach this. If we hold that crackers are “not bread” in the common sense of the word, we must then explain why hosts qualify as bread and not crackers in the common senses of the words. I don’t have any good explanation; I think that hosts are more cracker than bread. Therefore, I contend that crackers are bread for our purposes.

Next we must assess what disqualifies bread/crackers from being valid matter. St Thomas addressed the mixing of other ingredients specifically with regard to other grains, but I think his view would also apply to other impurities and ingredients. There is certainly much more wheat than all the other ingredients in most crackers, so that’s not helpful in disqualifying things.

Thomas also said “such corruption of the bread that the species of bread is lost, as when the continuity of its parts is destroyed, and the taste, color, and other accidents are changed.” Strictly speaking, he’s only addressing something that is no longer bread at all, but I think we can apply this approach more liberally to disqualify as valid matter cheese bread and garlic bread. While it may not be as noticeably different from a plain wheat cracker as the Xplosive Pizza flavor, I lean toward the idea that even the regular flavor of Goldfish differs enough from plain wheat that it is invalid matter.

Another factor is the yellow-orange color. Thomas thinks color is an essential part of the species of bread - in this day and age I happen to disagree. If a few drops of food coloring accidentally got mixed into the recipe for hosts, I think it would still be valid matter even if it had a bluish hue.

Anyway, my bottom line is that unsalted saltines or similarly basic crackers do qualify as valid matter; goldfish and other flavorful snacks probably don’t qualify, and that the priest didn’t intend to consecrate anything under the pew even if it was valid matter.

Nothing that wasn’t on the Holy Altar of Sacrifice ever got consecrated during Mass.

At larger masses, such as some papal masses, the quantity of bread and wine may be greater than can be fit on the altar (at least without undignified stacking). At such events, I think they usually manage to keep the chalices on the altar, but there are sometimes large containers of hosts standing beside the altar, or being held by clerics adjacent to the altar. The important thing is that the priest celebrant intends to consecrate those particular hosts, but not the spare hosts behind the wall six feet away.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

St Thomas Aquinas had some views on this question.I don’t think that is a very useful angle to approach this. If we hold that crackers are “not bread” in the common sense of the word, we must then explain why hosts qualify as bread and not crackers in the common senses of the words. I don’t have any good explanation; I think that hosts are more cracker than bread. Therefore, I contend that crackers are bread for our purposes.

Next we must assess what disqualifies bread/crackers from being valid matter. St Thomas addressed the mixing of other ingredients specifically with regard to other grains, but I think his view would also apply to other impurities and ingredients. There is certainly much more wheat than all the other ingredients in most crackers, so that’s not helpful in disqualifying things.

Thomas also said “such corruption of the bread that the species of bread is lost, as when the continuity of its parts is destroyed, and the taste, color, and other accidents are changed.” Strictly speaking, he’s only addressing something that is no longer bread at all, but I think we can apply this approach more liberally to disqualify as valid matter cheese bread and garlic bread. While it may not be as noticeably different from a plain wheat cracker as the Xplosive Pizza flavor, I lean toward the idea that even the regular flavor of Goldfish differs enough from plain wheat that it is invalid matter.

Another factor is the yellow-orange color. Thomas thinks color is an essential part of the species of bread - in this day and age I happen to disagree. If a few drops of food coloring accidentally got mixed into the recipe for hosts, I think it would still be valid matter even if it had a bluish hue.

Anyway, my bottom line is that unsalted saltines or similarly basic crackers do qualify as valid matter; goldfish and other flavorful snacks probably don’t qualify, and that the priest didn’t intend to consecrate anything under the pew even if it was valid matter.At larger masses, such as some papal masses, the quantity of bread and wine may be greater than can be fit on the altar (at least without undignified stacking). At such events, I think they usually manage to keep the chalices on the altar, but there are sometimes large containers of hosts standing beside the altar, or being held by clerics adjacent to the altar. The important thing is that the priest celebrant intends to consecrate those particular hosts, but not the spare hosts behind the wall six feet away.

Greetings Digitonmy,

That was a very well thought out post. And thanks for answering my question that I was going to post about unsalted crackers. I am going to save this post to my computer in case this topic ever comes up again.

I would agree with your contention that crackers are bread.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Digitonomy]

I am going to save this post to my computer in case this topic ever comes up again.

I would agree with your contention that crackers are bread.

Wow, I’m honored. However, just to be clear, I don’t consider myself a scholar in this area, and I may very well change my mind in a few minutes if someone else posts something authoritative contrary to my idle musing.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Wow, I’m honored. However, just to be clear, I don’t consider myself a scholar in this area, and I may very well change my mind in a few minutes if someone else posts something authoritative contrary to my idle musing.

Greetings Digitonomy,

It is quite hard to discredit the Angelic Doctor in most things. I am not sure if there will be anything authoriativily contradicting your post. That’s pretty good idle musing, want to write my Master’s Thesis paper for me?

It is quite nice to have landed in a post where we are talking about the validity of what is being Consecrated. I have wanted to follow others posts, but those have many pages of posts to wade through. Though I would make a fresh attempt at it with this post.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[FrDavid96]

St Thomas Aquinas had some views on this question.I don’t think that is a very useful angle to approach this. If we hold that crackers are “not bread” in the common sense of the word, we must then explain why hosts qualify as bread and not crackers in the common senses of the words. I don’t have any good explanation; I think that hosts are more cracker than bread. Therefore, I contend that crackers are bread for our purposes.

Next we must assess what disqualifies bread/crackers from being valid matter. St Thomas addressed the mixing of other ingredients specifically with regard to other grains, but I think his view would also apply to other impurities and ingredients. There is certainly much more wheat than all the other ingredients in most crackers, so that’s not helpful in disqualifying things.

Thomas also said “such corruption of the bread that the species of bread is lost, as when the continuity of its parts is destroyed, and the taste, color, and other accidents are changed.” Strictly speaking, he’s only addressing something that is no longer bread at all, but I think we can apply this approach more liberally to disqualify as valid matter cheese bread and garlic bread. While it may not be as noticeably different from a plain wheat cracker as the Xplosive Pizza flavor, I lean toward the idea that even the regular flavor of Goldfish differs enough from plain wheat that it is invalid matter.

Another factor is the yellow-orange color. Thomas thinks color is an essential part of the species of bread - in this day and age I happen to disagree. If a few drops of food coloring accidentally got mixed into the recipe for hosts, I think it would still be valid matter even if it had a bluish hue.

Anyway, my bottom line is that unsalted saltines or similarly basic crackers do qualify as valid matter; goldfish and other flavorful snacks probably don’t qualify, and that the priest didn’t intend to consecrate anything under the pew even if it was valid matter.At larger masses, such as some papal masses, the quantity of bread and wine may be greater than can be fit on the altar (at least without undignified stacking). At such events, I think they usually manage to keep the chalices on the altar, but there are sometimes large containers of hosts standing beside the altar, or being held by clerics adjacent to the altar. The important thing is that the priest celebrant intends to consecrate those particular hosts, but not the spare hosts behind the wall six feet away.

Here’s the bottom line.

If you have to go through so much trouble to try to convince people that goldfish crackers would actually be considered “bread” then it’s quite obvious that in fact, they aren’t bread.

You’re grasping at straws here.

If it’s not bread, it’s not bread. Not valid matter.

If it’s still bread, it might be doubtful. But there’s no reasonable way to claim that goldfish crackers could possibly be valid matter.

Frankly, you’re just typing nonsense.