Don't Mess With Mass!

[FightingFat]

Last Sunday was Remembrance Sunday here, I’m not sure if it’s an American thing, I know you have Veterans day on the 11th, but over here it’s the day that marks the end of WWI-- 11 day, 11 month 11 hour.

Anyway, I found myself rather upset on Sunday when we had a few additions to our Sunday Mass. The sermon was about Fr.’s visit to Ypres or Flanders or somewhere. We had some prayers from a leaflet and actually sang the national anthem before the final blessing!

I wasn’t happy because as I understand it, we are not to add anything or take anything away from the ancient right of the mass. My wife understood, but said that everyone seemed happy to join in. My oldest son was serving on the altar and commented that from where he was standing, I looked really unhappy. I think that people may well just join in with whatever goes on, but that’s not really the point.

Now I am feeling terrible because my son was upset that I was upset at Mass, I feel like everyone else is happy and I’m turning into a right old curmudgeon and my PP really doesn’t deserve my criticism. I should point out that he is old and an ex-Anglican. Remembrance Sunday is an Anglican thing, so maybe just no one has explained it to him? I feel like our Parish is turning into an Anglican Church!!!

What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I’m really not sure if I am correct, it’s just a feeling I have. Fine if you want to have a “remembrance service” but I don’t think the mass should be doctored to fit. What does one do? Do I have a right to be upset? Can I/ should I do anything about it?

 

[PJM]

Last Sunday was Remembrance Sunday here, I’m not sure if it’s an American thing, I know you have Veterans day on the 11th, but over here it’s the day that marks the end of WWI-- 11 day, 11 month 11 hour.

Anyway, I found myself rather upset on Sunday when we had a few additions to our Sunday Mass. The sermon was about Fr.’s visit to Ypres or Flanders or somewhere. We had some prayers from a leaflet and actually sang the national anthem before the final blessing!

I wasn’t happy because as I understand it, we are not to add anything or take anything away from the ancient right of the mass. My wife understood, but said that everyone seemed happy to join in. My oldest son was serving on the altar and commented that from where he was standing, I looked really unhappy. I think that people may well just join in with whatever goes on, but that’s not really the point.

Now I am feeling terrible because my son was upset that I was upset at Mass, I feel like everyone else is happy and I’m turning into a right old curmudgeon and my PP really doesn’t deserve my criticism. I should point out that he is old and an ex-Anglican. Remembrance Sunday is an Anglican thing, so maybe just no one has explained it to him? I feel like our Parish is turning into an Anglican Church!!!

What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I’m really not sure if I am correct, it’s just a feeling I have. Fine if you want to have a “remembrance service” but I don’t think the mass should be doctored to fit. What does one do? Do I have a right to be upset? Can I/ should I do anything about it?

Reply: My friend I share your concerns about “changes in the Mass.” But dumb ol’ me can’t quite understand what exactly you were up set about? Something in his homily? So long as he is not preaching hearsey, he can (and oh, so many do), say what they wish.

If the issue is simply patriotism, we might reacall that our County, and our Freedoms are too, gifts from God.

The issue of “seperation of church and state” is fabricated. The country was founded to GRANT “Freedom of religion”, not freedom FROM religion. So to sing a patriotic hymm at the END of Mass seems to me, to be OK.

It seems pertty clear that what we commonly have these day’s is a “mass-meal” recalling the Paschal mysteries reinacted through “the last supper.” Not what we used to have; a re-presentation of the Sacrifical Death of Jesus on the Cross, in an unbloddy manner, that reminds us how very much we are Loved by God. And thus He shares His very Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity with us.

God bless, keep the faith, being upset by what we inderstand as abuses is not a sin.

PJM m.c.

 

[FrDavid96]

Last Sunday was Remembrance Sunday here, I’m not sure if it’s an American thing, I know you have Veterans day on the 11th, but over here it’s the day that marks the end of WWI-- 11 day, 11 month 11 hour.

Anyway, I found myself rather upset on Sunday when we had a few additions to our Sunday Mass. The sermon was about Fr.’s visit to Ypres or Flanders or somewhere. We had some prayers from a leaflet and actually sang the national anthem before the final blessing!

I wasn’t happy because as I understand it, we are not to add anything or take anything away from the ancient right of the mass. My wife understood, but said that everyone seemed happy to join in. My oldest son was serving on the altar and commented that from where he was standing, I looked really unhappy. I think that people may well just join in with whatever goes on, but that’s not really the point.

Now I am feeling terrible because my son was upset that I was upset at Mass, I feel like everyone else is happy and I’m turning into a right old curmudgeon and my PP really doesn’t deserve my criticism. I should point out that he is old and an ex-Anglican. Remembrance Sunday is an Anglican thing, so maybe just no one has explained it to him? I feel like our Parish is turning into an Anglican Church!!!

What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I’m really not sure if I am correct, it’s just a feeling I have. Fine if you want to have a “remembrance service” but I don’t think the mass should be doctored to fit. What does one do? Do I have a right to be upset? Can I/ should I do anything about it?

Praying for the good of the nation goes all the way back to the Edict of Constantine (AD 313). One of the pagans objections against Christians was that they failed to pray for the Empire (to the gods) and were therefore bringing about the Empire’s destruction. When Constantine granted Christians freedom of religion, one of his 3 main points was to require that Christians pray for the good of Rome. Also, praying for the good of our country is itself a Christian obligation. I think it’s appropriate to pray for veterans on Remembrance Day/Veterans Day/Armistice Day.

As for the homily, I wasn’t there but: If the homily was about the Gospel message, and the trip to France was just the background for it, there’s nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, singing a patriotic hymn before the final blessing is inappropriate. After the blessing and dismissal, I don’t see a problem with it, as long as it’s only done on special occasions when it would be particularly appropriate (only as a reminder that we are praying to God for our nation.)

As for “additions to the Mass” we can’t comment on those unless we know exactly what they were.

 

[snhs]

Anyway, I found myself rather upset on Sunday when we had a few additions to our Sunday Mass. The sermon was about Fr.’s visit to Ypres or Flanders or somewhere. We had some prayers from a leaflet and actually sang the national anthem before the final blessing!

…

What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I’m really not sure if I am correct, it’s just a feeling I have. Fine if you want to have a “remembrance service” but I don’t think the mass should be doctored to fit. What does one do? Do I have a right to be upset? Can I/ should I do anything about it?

There’s not a lot you can do about the Homily so long as it did have some point to it beyond Father telling you about his visit. If the prayers were after the Creed during the Prayers of the Faithful then it’s also legitimate, even if it were taken from a leaflet, presuming there wasn’t anything against the Catholic Faith obviously.

I think you can probably argue about whether singing the National Anthem is appropriate. For many national anthems it probably wouldn’t be. But because of the lyrics “God Save the Queen …etc” you can argue it is not a secular song, but a prayer/hymn of sorts. I’m fairly certain I’ve never heard it sung in my Parish, and living in Scotland it’s not all that likely, but I can see why some may think it appropriate.

Based on what you’ve said I think the Priest has been within his rights. If it’s something you don’t like then you’re free to mention it to him, but a lot of Catholics fought in the Wars as well and I think it is something worth recollecting in some way during Mass even if it does originate on a secular rather than religious calendar.

 

[FightingFat]

Based on what you’ve said I think the Priest has been within his rights. If it’s something you don’t like then you’re free to mention it to him, but a lot of Catholics fought in the Wars as well and I think it is something worth recollecting in some way during Mass even if it does originate on a secular rather than religious calendar.

Thanks snhs, I agree with what you’re saying, and I do see how appropriate it is to honour our war dead. I also understand about the prayers of the faithful naturally. I am not overly truculent about any of the content, except that we had a little deviation at the end of the Mass, before the final blessing, so part of the Holy Mass, as I see it, where we had a little “service” and we all were asked to respond to “At the setting of the sun and when it comes up…We will remember them”, then we had a minute’s silence and sang “God Save the Queen” (which I don’t object to except that we are Catholic and not supporting any one particular country over another are we?). Is this OK to be part of the Mass? If we’d done it after the final blessing- I wouldn’t have an issue. I just felt that it was tagged on, or added to the rubrics which can’t be messed with (or so I thought).

 

[FrDavid96]

Thanks snhs, I agree with what you’re saying, and I do see how appropriate it is to honour our war dead. I also understand about the prayers of the faithful naturally. I am not overly truculent about any of the content, except that we had a little deviation at the end of the Mass, before the final blessing, so part of the Holy Mass, as I see it, where we had a little “service” and we all were asked to respond to “At the setting of the sun and when it comes up…We will remember them”, then we had a minute’s silence and sang “God Save the Queen” (which I don’t object to except that we are Catholic and not supporting any one particular country over another are we?). Is this OK to be part of the Mass? If we’d done it after the final blessing- I wouldn’t have an issue. I just felt that it was tagged on, or added to the rubrics which can’t be messed with (or so I thought).

You’re right. Things like that should not be done during the Mass. After the final blessing and dismissal (if the dismissal is done), the congregation certainly can, and in fact are encouraged, to offer corporate prayers. We can and should pray for our country, our own country (and others as well)–that’s not the same thing as saying that we expect God to favor one nation over another.

 

[snhs]

Thanks snhs, I agree with what you’re saying, and I do see how appropriate it is to honour our war dead. I also understand about the prayers of the faithful naturally. I am not overly truculent about any of the content, except that we had a little deviation at the end of the Mass, before the final blessing, so part of the Holy Mass, as I see it, where we had a little “service” and we all were asked to respond to “At the setting of the sun and when it comes up…We will remember them”, then we had a minute’s silence and sang “God Save the Queen” (which I don’t object to except that we are Catholic and not supporting any one particular country over another are we?). Is this OK to be part of the Mass? If we’d done it after the final blessing- I wouldn’t have an issue. I just felt that it was tagged on, or added to the rubrics which can’t be messed with (or so I thought).

I think FrDavid has it spot on. It’s still perfectly acceptable for the Priest to lead it, but before or after the Mass would have been more appropriate. Although I can see why the Priest might have thought it was alright to allow it given his background and the fact the Priest is allowed to have some notices at that point. Perhaps you could mention it to the Priest and suggest an alternative way of doing it next time, either before/after Mass or as a separate service?

I think with “God Save the Queen” there’s perhaps more of an ambiguity. If it were done as a strictly nationalistic exercise then it wouldn’t be appropriate, which is also why it wouldn’t fly with most Catholic congregations in Scotland. If it’s as a prayer/hymn then I think it could be legitimate, we pray for governments sometimes, for example, without necessarily endorsing the politicians or favouring that party over the opposition. You could argue for either stance though.

 

[FightingFat]

You’re right. Things like that should not be done during the Mass. After the final blessing and dismissal (if the dismissal is done), the congregation certainly can, and in fact are encouraged, to offer corporate prayers. We can and should pray for our country, our own country (and others as well)–that’s not the same thing as saying that we expect God to favor one nation over another.

Thank you Father David (I have a great friend who is also Fr. David, from Uganda!). I take your point about praying for our country etc. I suppose the wording of the British National Anthem is a bit jingoistic for my Catholic tastes- “Send her victorious…etc”

Please pray for me that I may have more humility with these issues!

 

[FightingFat]

I think FrDavid has it spot on. It’s still perfectly acceptable for the Priest to lead it, but before or after the Mass would have been more appropriate. Although I can see why the Priest might have thought it was alright to allow it given his background and the fact the Priest is allowed to have some notices at that point. Perhaps you could mention it to the Priest and suggest an alternative way of doing it next time, either before/after Mass or as a separate service?

Thanks-- I agree, perhaps he needs my help!

 

[puzzleannie]

yes Americans celebrate Veteran’s day (formerly Armistice day) on November 11 to remember all those who have fallen while serving our country. Since the Catholic Church emphatically endorses prayer for the dead, acknowledgement of this holiday is not out of place at Mass close to this day. Many parishes will include a song like America on that day, Thanksgiving or other national holidays. While the choice may be questionable it in no way changes the Mass itself. Still don’t see OP’s problem. If the priest had changed the Eucharistic prayer or something that would be another story.

 

[benedictgal]

yes Americans celebrate Veteran’s day (formerly Armistice day) on November 11 to remember all those who have fallen while serving our country. Since the Catholic Church emphatically endorses prayer for the dead, acknowledgement of this holiday is not out of place at Mass close to this day. Many parishes will include a song like America on that day, Thanksgiving or other national holidays. While the choice may be questionable it in no way changes the Mass itself. Still don’t see OP’s problem. If the priest had changed the Eucharistic prayer or something that would be another story.

Actually, Memorial Day is when we honor those in the military who have fallen in service to our country. Veterans Day takes in both the living and deceased veterans.

Ohter than the mention of Remembrance Day, I don’t quite see where the abuse was.

 

[FrDavid96]

There is a problem if it is done within the Mass itself.

The priest is permitted (not obliged) to make brief announcements after the post Communion prayer and before the final blessing. However, this does not give the priest license to insert anything else (anything that’s not specifically found in the Liturgical books and permitted at that time).

Nothing should ever be done during the Mass that is not part of the Mass itself. The final blessing takes but a few seconds. There is no excuse for a priest to insert anything extra-liturgical before that blessing. If something else follows the Mass, the priest may even omit the dismissal. I cannot imagine any excuse for doing something extra-liturgical at that moment, rather than simply giving the final blessing and then beginning the “something else”

Prayers for veterans (and especially deceased veterans since this is November) are most appropriate. But inserting something into the Mass is most inappropriate. See Redemptionis Sacramentum #75