Don't pray for people in mortal sin?

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Chaldean_Rite

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?nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v16

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
?nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v16

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
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The best I could find was on ewtn.com

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=373655&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=1+john+5%3A16&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=3&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
 
“I have come to save sinners”

These are Jesus’ words. Let us imitate Jesus and pray for sinners.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged”

These are also Jesus’ words. Let us not judge who is in mortal sin and who isn’t.
 
I read an explanation one time that I found to be very good, but I cannot recall where I read it. But basically it said that St. John was writing to the average lay person, and he recommends them to not try to handle the mortal sins of others but leave that up to those who have the authority such as priests and Bishops. Venial sins are a different story as John suggests in this verse.
 
Eucharisted said:
“I have come to save sinners”

These are Jesus’ words. Let us imitate Jesus and pray for sinners.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged”

These are also Jesus’ words. Let us not judge who is in mortal sin and who isn’t.
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COPLAND_3 said:
I read an explanation one time that I found to be very good, but I cannot recall where I read it. But basically it said that St. John was writing to the average lay person, and he recommends them to not try to handle the mortal sins of others but leave that up to those who have the authority such as priests and Bishops. Venial sins are a different story as John suggests in this verse.
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I think these are both good responses.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
?nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v16

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
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John says that you should pray for those whose sin is not deadly. Note that he does not say that you CAN’T pray for those whose sin is deadly; he just isn’t mandating that you do.

I suggest three things. First, I would use the term “deadly” here and not transform it into “mortal.” The Church has a well developed idea of mortal and venial sin today, and we cannot assume that the sins that John termed “deadly” would match up well with the sins we call “mortal” today.

Second, I think that what John is saying is, “Help everyone you can.” In other words, pray for those that you think can be saved, but you are not obliged to pray for someone that is beyond saving.

Third, I agree that it seems a little odd to suggest that we should be able to (or should even try) to make a judgment on who can be saved. It strikes a contrast with our practice today - which is really to pray for everyone. But I suspect we are reflecting our current worldview backwards. In the context of his times, the message likely contrasted with the practice of shunning or expelling sinners - separating the clean and unclean.

Given all of that, what this passage says to me, today, is this: “You have an obligation to help one another, even when some of you make mistakes. Look, I’m not saying you have to put up with the worst sorts of behavior, I’m not talking about that. But you have to help each other through life’s problems, including the mistakes all of us make.”
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
?nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v16

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
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Pray that your brother’s venial sin may be forgiven, and it will.

Pray that your brother’s mortal sin may be forgiven, and it will not. That is up to him to confess. You should instead pray that he will have the strength to understand his sin and confess it truthfully.
 
v3orb said:
Pray that your brother’s venial sin may be forgiven, and it will.

Pray that your brother’s mortal sin may be forgiven, and it will not. That is up to him to confess. You should instead pray that he will have the strength to understand his sin and confess it truthfully.
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That makes no sense to me. We should pray for all our brothers, saints & sinners, whether mortal or venial sin. God Loves us all
 
I never said that we should not pray for those in mortal sin, it is only HOW we pray for them.

Mortal sin cannot be forgiven through the actions of another. Therefore it is more to the point to ask that they can be given the grace to confess.
 
Methodi said:
That makes no sense to me. We should pray for all our brothers, saints & sinners, whether mortal or venial sin. God Loves us all
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What you need to notice is what Greek words St. John used here, because he uses ερωτηση which has a different sense as what is normally used for pray, such as πρόσευξαι. This one has the sense of “getting involve in the nature or operation of something,” which would be more than what a lay person is qualified for when it comes to mortal sin. St. John even uses a different Greek word in the very same verse when he is telling them to pray for their venial sins, and that word is αιτησει, which means to ask or desire.

Unforutnately the English translation does not show any distinction to the English reader nor does it give you the actual sense that a Greek reader would recognize.
 
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Ben_Masada:
Regarding the NT being written by Jews, I beg to disagree with you. For your surprise, none of the books of the NT
was written by Jews. Even Paul, from the moment he decided to defect from Judaism and start a new religion, Christianity, he ceased being Jewish. That’s how it goes according to Halacha in
Judaism.
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Greetings Ben Masada! I hope you’re having a nice day.

I thought I’d share this thought from Paul, in case you didn’t know that, as a Christian, he considered himself to be a faithful Jew:

But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man. …] let these men themselves say what wrongdoing they found when I stood before the council, other than this one thing that I cried out while standing among them: ‘It is with respect to the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you this day’ (Acts 24:14-21).
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Ben_Masada:
And with regards to “the Kenizzite Caleb, son of Jephunneh,” that’s how it reads in the original in Hebrew. Whatever it says in the several English translations, it may affect Christians but not Jews.
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Ben: <*)))>< :confused:

Having only checked Joshua 14:14 in all of the following texts, I can say that this Hebrew text does not share your order of words for this verse. Neither does this Hebrew text, provided by the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Nor this one, provided by Mechon Mamre, “a small group of observant Jewish Torah scholars.” This Hebew text also does not share your order of words. And, finally, this Hebrew text also does not share your order. Some of these examples may be superfluous since some of them may be based on the same underlying text. I didn’t take the time to check. 😊

The following examples are taken from the passages as found on the Hebrew University of Jerusalem’s website:

Numbers 32:12: כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה, הַקְּנִזִּי
Joshua 14:6: כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה הַקְּנִזִּי
Joshua 14:14: לְכָלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה הַקְּנִזִּי

All read, “Caleb (or ‘of/for Caleb’ in Joshua 14:14) the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite.”

The Jewish scholars of Mechon Mamre also provide a parallel Hebrew – English Bible so that you can verify the translation of Numbers 32:12 and Joshua 14 verses 6 and 14.

I hope that this post will help you in your struggle. I was a struggling skeptic myself - for years! Perhaps God is providing an opening for you to give consideration to the hope that we have in Jesus. 🙂

I also want to apologize to you for writing to you in a highhanded manner in my previous post. I am sorry. Will you please forgive me?

Pete
 
Perhaps you can look at the Encyclopedia’s pages on Mortal Sin and Venial Sin - a further understanding of the two could trigger more complete understanding :]
 
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