Don't the "Keys" imply Successors of Peter?

[Abu]

In His Grace #17
The “Rock” is not Peter but Christ

Such a disregard for Christ is what has produced Luther and the thousands of sects.

On St Peter, scholarly commentary identifies that Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic ‘Kepha’ into Greek. Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, 1988, Ignatius, p 207]. Paul calls Peter “Cephas” quite often. [Keating, p 208-11].

“Transliteration” means to represent words in the characters of another alphabet. Convert David B Currie puts it this way: “Kepha] transliterated into English, can be written ‘Cephas’.” Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, 1996, Ignatius, p 76]. Since “Kepha” is the only Aramaic word for rock, Currie points out that Jesus said: “I tell you that you are Rock (Kepha) and on this Rock (Kepha) I will build my Church.” [My emphasis].

“Sur” was the chief biblical word for rock, and the Psalms emphasised that God was the only Rock (sur). “Being closely synonymous with “sur”, the name Kepha could not help but evoke in pious Jews, as all the twelve were, a sentiment of awe and reverence.

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than the radical protestant Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”

The Swiss Calvinist biblical scholar, Oscar Cullman, declared …”the Roman Catholic exegesis must be regarded as correct.” (See* Peter, Apostle, Disciple, Martyr*, 1953, p 18-20).

Cephas is Aramaic for Rock and Petra is the Greek. When he said, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,” the two words meant the same thing.

 

[JohnR77]

Speaking as a Lutheran, but not for Lutherans or Lutheranism.

The Keys belong to the Church, not one particular bishop.

Of course they were not physical keys, but you said it well, Peter receives the Keys on behalf of the Church.

defendingthebride.com/temp/ChristSm7Perugino.jpg
Click above to enlarge

I agree that the keys were not physical, but a metaphorical. To understand the metaphor which was purposefully chosen by Christ means we need to study the significance and the purpose of a key.defendingthebride.com/ch/ca/rock3.html

To understand the significance of Jesus giving to Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven we need to think about the importance that keys have. To do this we need to reflect on the significance of what a lock does. For example, if everyone had keys to a given lock then that lock would serve absolutely no purpose at all. It would keep no one out. A lock only has value because only one key works. Only one particular key (or set of duplicate keys,) out of the whole range of different possibilities of possible keys, can open that given lock. Therefore, whoever holds the keys to a given lock has the UNIQUE position of being able to open that lock.

THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM, A Tool’s Witness to Truth, by Fr. Stanley Jaki, published by The Franciscan Herald Press, Chicago, Illinois 60609. Ph: 217228**5670.
**Do Christians need an infallible certainty in knowing how to interpret Sacred Scripture? On how to get to heaven and whether Baptism saves or is just an ordinance, etc ? Some postulate parallel universes. Are there parallel heavens where doctrines contradict each other? Are there different Jesus’, different heavens, different truths ?

If I am not my own Pope then I am compelled to learn the meaning of obedience, or I should say, the beauty of having truth revealed with certainty.

.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Thanks steve b and Abu. I know both of you have only the best of intentions for me as well as others. I have a decent understanding of Catholicism. This has been a three year journey for me, scripture, prayer, dozens of books written by Catholics, EWTN, going to Mass with my Roman Catholic wife for over eight years, etc., etc. etc. Yet I find my journey of faith taking me back to my Protestant roots. Baptist/Reformed to nearly crossing the Tiber to Lutheran. This is my journey home. I deeply yearn, desire and pray for unity between all Christians if this is even possible and what such unity would even look like I have no idea. Let all of us continue to pray nonetheless.

“Lord Jesus Christ, at your Last Supper you prayed to the Father that all should be one. Send your Holy Spirit upon all who bear your name and seek to serve you. Strengthen our faith in you, and lead us to love one another in humility. May we who have been reborn in one baptism be united in one faith under one Shepherd. Amen.” (Ut unum sint)

In His Grace

 

[In_His_Grace]

Such a disregard for Christ is what has produced Luther and the thousands of sects.

On St Peter, scholarly commentary identifies that Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic ‘Kepha’ into Greek. Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, 1988, Ignatius, p 207]. Paul calls Peter “Cephas” quite often. [Keating, p 208-11].

“Transliteration” means to represent words in the characters of another alphabet. Convert David B Currie puts it this way: “Kepha] transliterated into English, can be written ‘Cephas’.” Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, 1996, Ignatius, p 76]. Since “Kepha” is the only Aramaic word for rock, Currie points out that Jesus said: “I tell you that you are Rock (Kepha) and on this Rock (Kepha) I will build my Church.” [My emphasis].

“Sur” was the chief biblical word for rock, and the Psalms emphasised that God was the only Rock (sur). “Being closely synonymous with “sur”, the name Kepha could not help but evoke in pious Jews, as all the twelve were, a sentiment of awe and reverence.

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than the radical protestant Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”

The Swiss Calvinist biblical scholar, Oscar Cullman, declared …”the Roman Catholic exegesis must be regarded as correct.” (See* Peter, Apostle, Disciple, Martyr*, 1953, p 18-20).

Cephas is Aramaic for Rock and Petra is the Greek. When he said, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,” the two words meant the same thing.

Such a disregard for Christ…

Really Abu? Are you serious? I refuse to even respond to such a comment.

 

[Rau]

The “Rock” is not Peter but Christ and in a sense also Peter’s confession. Christ commits to all believers the keys of the kingdom of heaven and commissions all believers to preach the Gospel. Acceptance of the Gospel, the doors to the kingdom of heaven are unlocked/opened. Rejection of the Gospel, the doors to the kingdom of heaven are locked/closed. As a Lutheran I also see the Sacraments as Gospel.

If all believers have the keys, that would suggest we too can also “bind” and “loose”. How can that make sense? We all make our own morality?

 

[mattp0625]

If all believers have the keys, that would suggest we too can also “bind” and “loose”. How can that make sense? We all make our own morality?

You make a valid point. That’s why there are 30,000 Protestant denominations with conflicting doctrines.

The invisible church theory attempts to accommodate all this.

Luther lived in 16th century Germany. He appointed himself. It’s not possible for Luther to have the keys from Christ or apostolic succession.

 

[spina1953]

In giving the keys to Peter first, and then later to the rest of the Apostles, it seems to me that Jesus was wanting Peter to be the leader of His Church with the rest of the Apostles working in unity; together Just as the body of the Church has a head, Peter representing Christ on earth who is the head of the Church Christ entrusted to first Peter and to the rest of the Apostles, means to me unity, which sadly there is none as we see so many different denomonations within Christianity, and of course those who broke away due to differences in understanding, as well a in interpretations of Scripture; some leaving because of whatever wrongs by men within the Church itself and not staying to work to solve those wrongs.

I think this disunity makes God sad because, so many we so often see have hatred if not against the Catholic Church but to anyone who does not believe as they do. I often wonder what non-Christians think of this disunity we have in Christianity especially the Catholic church where so many non-Catholic’s seemingly want to disrespect those beliefs, I have seen on the internet.

I can readily understand that there are differences in interpretations and understanding of what Christians and Catholic’s believe and yet, Those who for the most part try to explain why they disagree with the Catholic position are good people who honestly try to understand just as good Catholic’s try to understand the positions of non Catholic’s.

Unity is I believe very important and the keys imply that unity that Christ gave to Peter that we all be one s Jesus is one with the Father. This what we need to and are doing I hope bring about unity and this only comes with understanding.If there were no succession from Peter onwards, where would unity be? I think no where and it would be choas and disunity we so often see among the denomonations.

 

[In_His_Grace]

If all believers have the keys, that would suggest we too can also “bind” and “loose”. How can that make sense? We all make our own morality?

Ok, the truth is I’ve never been very good with words. I seriously struggle to put together two or three coherent sentences. I shouldn’t be posting on an apologetics forum for fear that I will more then likely lead people astray. That being the case I’ll let others speak for me.

As a Lutheran this is what I believe about:

1. The Church
2. The Office of the Keys

In His Grace

 

[steve_b]

Thanks steve b and Abu. I know both of you have only the best of intentions for me as well as others. I have a decent understanding of Catholicism. This has been a three year journey for me, scripture, prayer, dozens of books written by Catholics, EWTN, going to Mass with my Roman Catholic wife for over eight years, etc., etc. etc. Yet I find my journey of faith taking me back to my Protestant roots.

And thank you in return

Know that I have only best intentions for you. So please take what I’m going to say, in that spirit.
**
(all links operational)**

Jesus started the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church #34.

It began here with Jesus changing Simon’s name to Rock(Peter) and saying He will give Peter the keys to the kingdom Matthew 16:16-19

Nowhere in scripture does Jesus give the keys to anyone else.

Jesus insists on perfect unity in what He established John 17:20-23 , therefore, He wants EVERYONE in His Church and ZERO division(s).

In that link #34 if you read “Irenaeus”, you see that Peter has successors, and his successors are from the Church of Rome. Irenaeus names Peter’s successors, (12 by name) down to Irenaeus day.

The keys are with Peter and his successors.

In the interest of full disclosure and your best interest in mind (again, all links operational)

There are consequences tied to division from the Church Jesus says “I will build” with Peter and the keys as the leader .

This Greek word dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition, sects, is used in the following 2 selections.

I’'m only focusing on one sin for this example. Division. The links give the entire passages in context.

Romans 16:17-20
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. …

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are … dissensions, διχοστασίας] sects, … they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

I only bring this sin of division up, to show that once a person knows the truth, there are disastrous consequences for the individual who willingly divides from Our Lord’s Church and remains so.

prayers ascending for your journey that it brings you into the Catholic Church

 

[In_His_Grace]

Hi Steve,

Would you agree that your beliefs as a Catholic are based on your private interpretation of scripture and history?

In His Grace

And thank you in return

Know that I have only best intentions for you. So please take what I’m going to say, in that spirit.
**
(all links operational)**

Jesus started the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church #34.

It began here with Jesus changing Simon’s name to Rock(Peter) and saying He will give Peter the keys to the kingdom Matthew 16:16-19

Nowhere in scripture does Jesus give the keys to anyone else.

Jesus insists on perfect unity in what He established John 17:20-23 , therefore, He wants EVERYONE in His Church and ZERO division(s).

In that link #34 if you read “Irenaeus”, you see that Peter has successors, and his successors are from the Church of Rome. Irenaeus names Peter’s successors, (12 by name) down to Irenaeus day.

The keys are with Peter and his successors.

In the interest of full disclosure and your best interest in mind (again, all links operational)

There are consequences tied to division from the Church Jesus says “I will build” with Peter and the keys as the leader .

This Greek word dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition, sects, is used in the following 2 selections.

I’'m only focusing on one sin for this example. Division. The links give the entire passages in context.

Romans 16:17-20
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. …

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are … dissensions, διχοστασίας] sects, … they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

I only bring this sin of division up, to show that once a person knows the truth, there are disastrous consequences for the individual who willingly divides from Our Lord’s Church and remains so.

prayers ascending for your journey that it brings you into the Catholic Church

 

[steve_b]

Hi Steve,

Would you agree that your beliefs as a Catholic are based on your private interpretation of scripture and history?

In His Grace

No

Did I give you any of my opinions in the links I provided? No.

I let all those links speak for themselves. #29

 

[spina1953]

Steve b: I read your post and I remember the orthodox saying that the keys were also given to the rest of the Apostles, However, after reading your post I looked it up and you are very correct in saying that the keys were only given to Peter. So I think you in that while you did not know it you helped me about knowing who got the keys. So thanks for your post!

 

[JonNC]

You make a valid point. That’s why there are 30,000 Protestant denominations with conflicting doctrines.

The invisible church theory attempts to accommodate all this.

Luther lived in 16th century Germany. He appointed himself. It’s not possible for Luther to have the keys from Christ or apostolic succession.

I can’t speak for other communions, whether there are 30,000 or not, because I do not belong to them, and they can speak for themselves.

But Lutherans do not view the Church as invisible only. There is, indeed a visible Church. Orthodoxy, if I understand correctly, view the Church as the faithful surrounding their bishop, that the local church is completely the Church. The Catholic Church believes it is the faithful and bishops in communion with the Bishop or Rome. Lutherans view the Church as the congregation of the saints (believers) where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.
We see the Church as invisible as regards wheat and tares, etc.

We further believe that it is not necessary for pastors and bishops to be appointed by the Bishop of Rome. The can be, but that is not a necessity. So, whether or not it is possible for Lutheran clergy to have the keys, to be able to bind and loose, etc., isn’t up to you, or even the Bishop of Rome, quite frankly. When I seek the sacrament of Holy Absolution from my pastor, his words in *persona christi *grant absolution, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jon

 

[mattp0625]

I can’t speak for other communions, whether there are 30,000 or not, because I do not belong to them, and they can speak for themselves.

But Lutherans do not view the Church as invisible only. There is, indeed a visible Church. Orthodoxy, if I understand correctly, view the Church as the faithful surrounding their bishop, that the local church is completely the Church. The Catholic Church believes it is the faithful and bishops in communion with the Bishop or Rome. Lutherans view the Church as the congregation of the saints (believers) where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.
We see the Church as invisible as regards wheat and tares, etc.

We further believe that it is not necessary for pastors and bishops to be appointed by the Bishop of Rome. The can be, but that is not a necessity. So, whether or not it is possible for Lutheran clergy to have the keys, to be able to bind and loose, etc., isn’t up to you, or even the Bishop of Rome, quite frankly. When I seek the sacrament of Holy Absolution from my pastor, his words in *persona christi *grant absolution, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jon

Yes, all 30,000 denominations claim to be led by the Spirit. Anyone in Protestantism can stand on a bible, claim Spirit, interpret scripture however he/she likes, and start a new church. Meanwhile, Christ did not make provisions for denominations or conflicting doctrines.

The keys were given by Christ to Peter, not to any and all believers. My name is not in the gospel. Neither is Luther’s name. Peter is named to lead the church and to appoint successors.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, all 30,000 denominations claim to be led by the Spirit. Anyone in Protestantism can stand on a bible, claim Spirit, interpret scripture however he/she likes, and start a new church. Meanwhile, Christ did not make provisions for denominations or conflicting doctrines.

The keys were given by Christ to Peter, not to any and all believers. My name is not in the gospel. Neither is Luther’s name. Peter is named to lead the church and to appoint successors.

I agree He did not make conflicting doctrines but the Church has had them long before the arrival of Luther. I don’t know what you’re on about concerning 30,000 denominations. According to that methodology there are 240 some Cstholic Churches. The number is, therefore, nonsense, but it doesn’t matter, since I am a member of the Lutheran tradition within the One Holy Church. I am as divided from them as you are, sadly.

My name is not in the Bible, yet He knew me in the womb. I don’t have the keys. The Church does, and the Church sends forth men who have been called, by ordaining them to carry out Christ’s call. You are welcome to believe that only Rome has St Peter.
So if you want to argue against the notion that the keys are in the hands of all believers, know that I don’t believe that.

Jon

 

[mattp0625]

I agree He did not make conflicting doctrines but the Church has had them long before the arrival of Luther. I don’t know what you’re on about concerning 30,000 denominations. According to that methodology there are 240 some Cstholic Churches. The number is, therefore, nonsense, but it doesn’t matter, since I am a member of the Lutheran tradition within the One Holy Church. I am as divided from them as you are, sadly.

My name is not in the Bible, yet He knew me in the womb. I don’t have the keys. The Church does, and the Church sends forth men who have been called, by ordaining them to carry out Christ’s call. You are welcome to believe that only Rome has St Peter.
So if you want to argue against the notion that the keys are in the hands of all believers, know that I don’t believe that.

Jon

There is one holy Catholic and apostolic church. It is only led by Peter and his appointed successors. There is not a split within the church. One doctrine, one church, one path of succession from Peter.

I am on the denominations because schism is the result of Protestant doctrine and they all claim to have authority. There’s an inherent conflict in that. There is also an inherent conflict in having 30,000 denominations with conflicting doctrines in Christ’s church.

There’s an inherent conflict in claiming Christ started a church that was originated in 16th century Germany

There’s an inherent conflict in 30,000 denominations all claiming to be led by the Spirit and claiming to have the right path. The old saying is that the Spirit is not schizophrenic.

 

[MT1926]

According to that methodology there are 240 some Cstholic Churches.

I am as divided from them as you are, sadly.

So if you want to argue against the notion that the keys are in the hands of all believers, know that I don’t believe that.

Jon

You confused me on these 3 quotes, could you please explain in more detail?

I have never heard anyone say there are 240 some Catholic Churches.

Divided from who?

The only thing I can assume is you are stating the Catholic Church today has split off of the original Catholic Church?

It might be me reading it wrong but the third quote seems worded confusing. Are you saying the keys are in the hands of the believers or are you saying each church has it’s own set of keys?

Thanks,

God Bless
Matthew 19:26

 

[In_His_Grace]

No

Did I give you any of my opinions in the links I provided? No.

I let all those links speak for themselves. #29

With all due respect Steve, your negative response to my question cannot possibly be true. I understand that your beliefs as a Catholic are based on your faith in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture and history, this, of necessity, requires private interpretation of scripture and history on your part. Help me out here, what am I not understanding?

In His Grace

 

[In_His_Grace]

I agree He did not make conflicting doctrines but the Church has had them long before the arrival of Luther. I don’t know what you’re on about concerning 30,000 denominations. According to that methodology there are 240 some Cstholic Churches. The number is, therefore, nonsense, but it doesn’t matter, since I am a member of the Lutheran tradition within the One Holy Church. I am as divided from them as you are, sadly.

My name is not in the Bible, yet He knew me in the womb. I don’t have the keys. The Church does, and the Church sends forth men who have been called, by ordaining them to carry out Christ’s call. You are welcome to believe that only Rome has St Peter.
So if you want to argue against the notion that the keys are in the hands of all believers, know that I don’t believe that.

Jon

Thank you Jon. I am the all time great and amazing bungler of words. The best I seem able to do to express what I believe is provide links.

In His Grace

 

[steve_b]

Steve b: I read your post and I remember the orthodox saying that the keys were also given to the rest of the Apostles, However, after reading your post I looked it up and you are very correct in saying that the keys were only given to Peter. So I think you in that while you did not know it you helped me about knowing who got the keys. So thanks for your post!

:tiphat: