Don't understand abstinence threads

[karow]

I don’t understand the obsession with what does or doesn’t happen in other people’s bedrooms. Honestly.

Was I asleep during the part of the catechism where it talked about receiving graces for involving myself in other people’s sex lives? Am I somehow going to be a holier person for engaging some stranger on the Internet about how frequently or infrequently they have sex with their spouse? More importantly, I am going to hell if I could give two rips about other peoples’ sex lives?

On another thread I mentioned that it was a number of months after the birth of our twins before my husband and I resumed our sex life. I’m not ashamed or proud of that fact, and neither is my husband. (I just asked him, and he’s shaking his head no.)

I mentioned it only to show that sometimes God throws us a curve ball that takes our lives away from sex for a while, and that’s Okay if it’s mutually agreed upon. Anyway, few hours later I got a private message from a concern troll who went into explicit detail about how my “denial of the marital embrace” was keeping myself and my husband from enjoying eternity in heaven. They then went on to list in explicit detail exactly which of my husband’s body parts could enter which of my orifices, when, how, and to what result. With equal emphasis the troll went on to tell me exactly how I could and could not physically interact with my husband and my own body. It was quite honestly one of the craziest emails I’ve ever gotten, and as I sat there reading it I thought “I should be getting paid to do this.” And then I turned off the private messaging feature on CAF.

And by the way, I despise the term “marital embrace.” It sounds like it came out of some early 20th century pamphlet for new brides malarkey.

 

[Brav3N3wWorld]

Would you please share references on extended abstinence? The idea that this would actually be good for a marriage is perplexing to me. It seems like if it is necessary due to physical inability, illness, etc., that it should be accepted as a cross and you live it out as part of your marriage vows. But if it is at all possible to maintain your physical intimacy, I would think that would be the better and advisable option. That being said, I’m willing to be enlightened if you would kindly provide references.

It seems like extended abstinence should be reserved for extreme situations.

A few quotes by St. Augustine (a Doctor of the Church):

But however let such as are continent, either men, who, on the death of their wives, or, women, who, on the death of their husbands, or both, who, with mutual consent, have vowed continence unto God, know that to them indeed there is due a greater recompense than marriage chastity demands.

and

But God forbid that the nuptial bond should be regarded as broken between those who have by mutual consent agreed to observe a perpetual abstinence from the use of carnal concupiscence. Nay, it will be only a firmer one, whereby they have exchanged pledges together, which will have to be kept by a special endearment and concord—not by the voluptuous links of bodies, but by the voluntary affections of souls. For it was not deceitfully that the angel said to Joseph: Fear not to take unto you Mary your wife. Matthew 1:20 She is called his wife because of her first troth of betrothal, although he had had no carnal knowledge of her, nor was destined to have. The designation of wife was neither destroyed nor made untrue, where there never had been, nor was meant to be, any carnal connection.

And let’s not forget that Joseph and Mary lived their marriage in complete celibacy.

John Paul II, in Theology of the Body, also discusses the virtue of continence within the context of Humanae Vitae:
Continence Protects the Dignity of the Conjugal Act
Continence Frees One from Inner Tension
Continence Deepens Personal Communion

In addition there were many Saint couples who lived out complete celibacy in marriage.

Alright, I’ve shown how EA fits within Catholic tradition. Can you show me where the Catholic Church (Scripture, Saints, Theologians, etc.) says that about mutually agreed upon EA or continence is a bad thing? And I’m not asking this simply to contrary , I’m really curious about it. Thanks!

 

[Daegus]

Who cares?

The answer to this thread can be summed up as: “Different strokes for different folks”.

I am very serious by the way…

 

[faithfully]

I don’t understand the obsession with what does or doesn’t happen in other people’s bedrooms. Honestly.

Was I asleep during the part of the catechism where it talked about receiving graces for involving myself in other people’s sex lives? Am I somehow going to be a holier person for engaging some stranger on the Internet about how frequently or infrequently they have sex with their spouse? More importantly, I am going to hell if I could give two rips about other peoples’ sex lives?

On another thread I mentioned that it was a number of months after the birth of our twins before my husband and I resumed our sex life. I’m not ashamed or proud of that fact, and neither is my husband. (I just asked him, and he’s shaking his head no.)

I mentioned it only to show that sometimes God throws us a curve ball that takes our lives away from sex for a while, and that’s Okay if it’s mutually agreed upon. Anyway, few hours later I got a private message from a concern troll who went into explicit detail about how my “denial of the marital embrace” was keeping myself and my husband from enjoying eternity in heaven. They then went on to list in explicit detail exactly which of my husband’s body parts could enter which of my orifices, when, how, and to what result. With equal emphasis the troll went on to tell me exactly how I could and could not physically interact with my husband and my own body. It was quite honestly one of the craziest emails I’ve ever gotten, and as I sat there reading it I thought “I should be getting paid to do this.” And then I turned off the private messaging feature on CAF.

And by the way, I despise the term “marital embrace.” It sounds like it came out of some early 20th century pamphlet for new brides malarkey.

PLEASE report that PM… That’s so over the top and inappropriate… nearly cyber sexual harassment if such a term exists… GROSS!

 

[whm]

What is with all of the abstinence threads lately? It seems there are a lot of people advocating extended abstinence as being good for a marriage. Those of us who say that sex is good and important in marriage are accused of not having self control or placing undue importance on it. ]

I am not sure what threads you have been reading or through what lens. But the treads I have read lately are about people who have not choice (or believe they have no choice) but abstinence. None of these threads ever said marital sex is bad. They discuss the benefits of sacrifice when sex is not available. These people are going through very difficult circumstances, they are not in anyway attacking authentic marital relations. They are looking for advice and support.

Married sex, that is open to life, does not pose immediate and certain danger to the mother or potential child is a wonderful grace filled thing. When it is impossible or irresponsible to have authentic married sex, there are other wonderful grace filled things people can spend time doing.

A discussion of how great sex is for marriage to people for whom sex is not possible, is not particularly helpful. This might be why these threads seem one sided. But I still don’t see were you are coming from, I haven’t seen any thread accusing those who can have sex in marriage not having self control

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m not sure this is a completely subjective matter. Wouldn’t that be like saying that whether or not to receive the Eucharist is a subjective matter? Of course some people receive daily and others less frequently. Same with sex. It is important. It matters. We might not always feel like it, but our marital relationships benefit.

we are talking not about something that is required, but something that is permitted in marriage in certain situations–St. Paul says so. It is required that we receive Holy Communion once a year, it is a subjective judgment whether or not we receive weekly or daily, and it is a subjective judgment informed by Church teaching whether or not I am worthy to receive at any given time.

Sexual intercourse is one of the purposes of marriage as the unitive aspect is paramount, but that does not imply a required frequency, or that it may never be foregone for any reason. Just as there are times we must refrain from communion, and times we cannot receive due to circumstances beyond our control, so with marital relations.

This aspect of dictating to other people based on personal experience is what troubles me most with this and almost every family life discussion on this forum: SAHMs, cosleeping, cloth diapers, what have you. You best informed mutual consensual choice as a couple on such matters does not equate to a universal natural or church law.

 

[whm]

I think a lot of the people that espouse the “extended marital abstinence isn’t that big of a deal” viewpoint are either

1. Trying to be contrary just to get a rise out of sincere posters.
2. Not having very good sex.
3. Have a serious marital problem that makes them not desire to have sex with their spouse.
4. Are single.

I have the viewpoint that extended abstinence is bad for marriage. Sexual intimacy/bed sharing is the one thing that distinguishes a marriage from, say, a dating relationship or even a friendship or roommate arrangement. When spouses withhold this very important act from one another, it can only end in hurt feelings, anger, frustration and will act as a wedge between the couple - resulting in their relationship becoming, at best, a “friendship” and at worst extremely adversarial. Show me a couple who doesn’t have regular sex, and I** will show you a weak marriage**.ence." I’m talking about people who have sex like, once a month or even less often.

Wow. I must say I find this to be quite offensive. Maybe I should just walk out on my “roommate” and find me a younger model that like lots of sex, then I would have a strong relationship. Because abstaining for the last decade, in the prime of our lives, doesn’t show a strong marriage. It would be stronger if I hurt my wife or put her at risk for my own perverse sexual pleasure.

1. Abstinence for the sake of the kingdom is biblical (not really what we are talking about here though, more like religious, priests, consecrated virgins and josephite marriages)
2. Sacrifice in order to do what is right and just is God’s eyes for His sake is always good. If sex in marriage is not possible or is unquestionably dangerous, it is not a moral option. People are not abstaining and writing about it because it is fun or easy. So why insult them?

If we were talking about abstinence without any good reason and not for a time of prayer, then I would see something to debate.

These discussions are about people in particular situations, if you are not in that situation it doesn’t really apply to you. Have marital relations that are open to life, grow close to your spouse and God and rejoice.

 

[jilly4ski]

This is sort related to the title, but not really the discussion.
I too don’t understand why couples would choose complete/extended abstinence over periodic abstinence. (excepting those who cannot engage in the martial act because of health, or where the risk of pregnancy is too great). But I can say I don’t understand because I do not have to carry that particular cross of anxiety. I have never known so much anxiety that I would rather give up being sexually intimate with my husband for peace of mind that I would not become pregnant. This a great blessing for me, but for those that deal with it, it must be a great cross. We all have our own crosses and must deal with them without falling into sin.

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

This is sort related to the title, but not really the discussion.
I too don’t understand why couples would choose complete/extended abstinence over periodic abstinence. (excepting those who cannot engage in the martial act because of health, or where the risk of pregnancy is too great). But I can say I don’t understand because I do not have to carry that particular cross of anxiety. I have never known so much anxiety that I would rather give up being sexually intimate with my husband for peace of mind that I would not become pregnant. This a great blessing for me, but for those that deal with it, it must be a great cross. We all have our own crosses and must deal with them without falling into sin.

AMEN

 

[whm]

This is sort related to the title, but not really the discussion.
I too don’t understand why couples would choose complete/extended abstinence over periodic abstinence. (excepting those who cannot engage in the martial act because of health, or where the risk of pregnancy is too great). But I can say I don’t understand because I do not have to carry that particular cross of anxiety. I have never known so much anxiety that I would rather give up being sexually intimate with my husband for peace of mind that I would not become pregnant. This a great blessing for me, but for those that deal with it, it must be a great cross. We all have our own crosses and must deal with them without falling into sin.

This is an interesting question. I think the answer depends on the motivation. If it (total abstinence) is undue anxiety, that might be a problem. If is a concern over have a “contraceptive mentality”, then that might be the right thing to do for that couple. I could also see periodic abstinence being a problem with folks with lust or sexual disfunction issues, where it might be easier to avoid sin by not going back and forth between periods of sex and no sex.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

I post on another message board, where the mods will flag posts for a violation known as
“Opinion as fact”… when someone argues their case relentlessly, using their personal opinion as though it were a subjective fact.

I would be flagging this whole thread as “opinion as fact.”

Who are any of us to make blanket statements about how much sex is enough for “every man” or how it’s not possible for a couple to actually be happy and strong without regular sex?

I think we should all mind our own bedrooms.

 

[kristleful]

This is sort related to the title, but not really the discussion.
I too don’t understand why couples would choose complete/extended abstinence over periodic abstinence. (excepting those who cannot engage in the martial act because of health, or where the risk of pregnancy is too great). But I can say I don’t understand because I do not have to carry that particular cross of anxiety. I have never known so much anxiety that I would rather give up being sexually intimate with my husband for peace of mind that I would not become pregnant. This a great blessing for me, but for those that deal with it, it must be a great cross. We all have our own crosses and must deal with them without falling into sin.

I feel the exact same way. I have no fear of getting pregnant, and I never will, because it has always been my mentality to trust God in these matters. I do, however, struggle with a lack of desire for sex (I am very, very rarely in the mood). It would be so easy for me to practice abstinence, but I have sex with my husband 2-3 times a week out of love for him. It’s an ongoing struggle, where I have to pray for God to teach me how to truly love and give myself as a gift.

We all have struggles, and I think when a particular thing is very hard for us (abstinence, NFP, being open to life, being infertile, being chaste), we take offense easily to people on the other side of the struggle. We talk and talk and argue to try to make ourselves feel better, and in the process we often unwittingly hurt others in the areas of their lives that are most sensitive.

I think what we all really need is to take these conversations to God, give Him our pain, struggles, and frustrations, and ask for a good dose of love in exchange. Whatever you are struggling to do, ask yourself and God first, “Am I trying to do this out of true, self-sacrificial love?” If you are practicing NFP to avoid children, for instance, ask this question with an honest, open heart. If you are having sex with your husband/wife every day, go ahead and ask the same question… It never hurts to assess everything we do and every decision we make, to see how much we are dying to self versus seeking ourselves. And this is something best done through prayer, especially in Adoration, reading the Bible and works of the saints, and the sacraments. If your intent is consistently to reach a purer and more sacrificial love with every choice you make, then you won’t feel so unsettled or bitter when you come across differing opinions on CAF or anywhere else. You will be at peace.