Don't want to be married, don't want to be single, not sure what to do

[Vico]

And this is supposed to do anything except reinforce my original complaint how? I’m sick to death of hearing people who can’t show a tiny bit of compassion instead of throwing more rules at people who are suffering. All this sort of thing does is make hurting people feel guilty for hurting.

You asked in post 1 what you should do, so your response is a surprise to me.

Guilt is an emotion based on thinking you have significant responsibility for some violation. There is no violation in a feeling of loneliness. Do you feel you have committed a violation?

 

[DarkLight]

You asked in post 1 what you should do, so your response is a surprise to me.

Guilt is an emotion based on thinking you have significant responsibility for some violation. There is no violation in a feeling of loneliness. Do you feel you have committed a violation?

There’s a rather huge difference in this sort of thing between being told what you should do and what you should not do.

A gay person comes on the forum and says they’re really struggling. They feel like they don’t know how to live on their own. They can’t have close relationships with the same sex because of the possibility of temptation, plus it freaks people out. They can’t have close relationships with the opposite sex because of the possibility of temptation, and of scandal. But they desperately want to have a companion, someone who’s more than “just a friend”, without having a sexual relationship.

What good would telling them that gay sex is wrong do? What good would saying don’t have an opposite sex partner because of scandal do? All it’s done is reiterate stuff that they know without providing any solution, and it sure comes across as “wanting to satisfy your desires for companionship is wrong, because you are different.”

 

[Xantippe]

I have a few thoughts on friendship in general.

I think some of the problems that you are having with friendship aren’t actually that unique. I have a husband and kids but that isn’t enough–friendship is really important. In fact, I’ve said before on this forum that mothers need friends, and that having and maintaining friendships is part of the job. That said, friendship is not necessarily permanent. We have this ideal of keeping our friends from 2nd grade/high school/college/etc. forever and having exactly the same relationship we’ve always had, but that usually isn’t realistic. I personally feel pretty darn good if I manage to keep one friendship going per era of my life–time and distance take their toll.

I’m 39 and just a year ago, I had two close local friends that I could always count on and I felt pretty darn good about my IRL social life. But then one friend moved, and I’m starting to hear that the other one may move, too. My sister also had the experience that a close friend just got married and took a new job, and suddenly isn’t as available. What I’ve been learning is that it’s not really possible if you want to have friends to say, “well, I’ve made all the friends I’m going to need, I can kick back now.” It just doesn’t work like that. Things change and keep on changing. I’m realizing now that the making of friends is pretty much a lifelong project. And I have to say that I often identify with CAF’s sad single guys with regard to hard dating women is–I often feel the same way. There’s often the same sort of need for exertion and the same disappointments in finding female friends.

With regard to scandal, I think that if you have multiple friends that you spread yourself between, it’s going to be much less of an issue.

I have to note that female-female friendships are often quasi-romantic. Two straight women who are close friends will be emotionally intimate in a way that is much less common or socially acceptable between straight men. So, if you detect that sort of emotional intimacy in a relationship with a straight woman, it doesn’t necessarily mean that your friendship is headed out of bounds. That’s just what close female-female friendship looks like.

I also recommend particularly exerting yourself with newcomers. For one thing, it’s a kindness to welcome newcomers and make them feel at home in a new community. For another thing, I’ve often gotten very good results that way with finding friends. People are much more open to forming new friendships when they are new.

Best wishes!

 

[SerraSemper]

You have a history of abuse, so I really encourage you to get counseling. These thoughts of marital intimacy as “gross”, “prostitution”, “weird”, and repulsive most likely stem from your prior situation.

It won’t be easy to heal, but with professional help you can make good progress.

DL, what I’m hearing you say you want is you want marriage without expectation of sex. Marriage is by definition “an intimate communion of the whole of life”, which is what you are describing in wanting commitment and emotional intimacy and that person to watch TV with…

Most of the abused women I know who are now happily married have had to have a lot of professional counseling to get from being utterly repulsed at sex to eagerly desiring it. (Sexual abuse usually triggers rampant promiscuity in women or extreme frigidity and repulsion. I don’t know what kind of abuse you have experienced, but it is very common for victims of sexual abuse to loathe the idea of sex and children.) It took years and a lot of hard work. In one case, it was the wife’s husband who gave her the ultimatum to either consummate the marriage or get a divorce that finally made her fulfill her obligation of self care and seek healing with professionals. While therapy may be helpful, a disinterest in sex may also stem from hormonal imbalances, which a competent GYN can determine with tests.

We have our crosses. I know many abuse victims who struggle daily with intimacy issues and who are often even suicidal. What I can say is that right now you have the cross of not being ready to be married, which is what you desire, and you would not be ready to join a religious community either. However, you can take the plunge and start with the professionals for healing, which may open doors in the future. You are young and a lot of good things can happen!

I’ll close with a word about the idea of “feeling” like a prostitute for the intimacy you want if you got married. Marriage is primarily about the will to love, to desire the good of the other and to work together for this to happen. It is sexual for many reasons, but you don’t have to “feel” pleasure in having sex. I’m not talking about marital rape. I’m saying that it is quite helpful to have at least some desire for sex, but that it is sufficient that a spouse do it with the other when it is reasonable even if they’re not “in the mood”. Now, since marriage is about the “good of the spouses”, a husband would have to be more careful with you because if it is true you cannot have children for health reasons, then you’d have to be very careful in terms of periods of abstinence… Again, his abstinence would be part of the “good of the spouses”. The reason one should get healing before attempting any kind of marriage is so that one is the most healthy one can be for one’s spouse. A spouse wants their spouse to enjoy sex if possible.

 

[SerraSemper]

I have a few thoughts on friendship in general.

I think some of the problems that you are having with friendship aren’t actually that unique. I have a husband and kids but that isn’t enough–friendship is really important. In fact, I’ve said before on this forum that mothers need friends, and that having and maintaining friendships is part of the job. That said, friendship is not necessarily permanent. We have this ideal of keeping our friends from 2nd grade/high school/college/etc. forever and having exactly the same relationship we’ve always had, but that usually isn’t realistic. I personally feel pretty darn good if I manage to keep one friendship going per era of my life–time and distance take their toll.

I’m 39 and just a year ago, I had two close local friends that I could always count on and I felt pretty darn good about my IRL social life. But then one friend moved, and I’m starting to hear that the other one may move, too. My sister also had the experience that a close friend just got married and took a new job, and suddenly isn’t as available. What I’ve been learning is that it’s not really possible if you want to have friends to say, “well, I’ve made all the friends I’m going to need, I can kick back now.” It just doesn’t work like that. Things change and keep on changing. I’m realizing now that the making of friends is pretty much a lifelong project. And I have to say that I often identify with CAF’s sad single guys with regard to hard dating women is–I often feel the same way. There’s often the same sort of need for exertion and the same disappointments in finding female friends.

With regard to scandal, I think that if you have multiple friends that you spread yourself between, it’s going to be much less of an issue.

I have to note that female-female friendships are often quasi-romantic. Two straight women who are close friends will be emotionally intimate in a way that is much less common or socially acceptable between straight men. So, if you detect that sort of emotional intimacy in a relationship with a straight woman, it doesn’t necessarily mean that your friendship is headed out of bounds. That’s just what close female-female friendship looks like.

I also recommend particularly exerting yourself with newcomers. For one thing, it’s a kindness to welcome newcomers and make them feel at home in a new community. For another thing, I’ve often gotten very good results that way with finding friends. People are much more open to forming new friendships when they are new.

Best wishes!

Agreed. As a consecrated virgin, I find it is necessary to have a variety of friends and to make the effort for having a good social circle. Different friends will come and go in your life and that’s the nature of the beast on this planet. I especially like your point about being married and needing lots of friends. This is something that can’t be over emphasized. Many unmarried women fantasize that their “man” will be all so understanding and empathetic and be their entire emotional support. Marriage doesn’t work that way. Men are mostly not wired to give the level of feminine understanding and emotional support women crave. Yes, a spouse is the primary source of support, but in normal circumstances, people must have other friendships as well. This must be prudent though because certain friendships outside of marriage can lead to emotional infidelity…

 

[Xantippe]

Agreed. As a consecrated virgin, I find it is necessary to have a variety of friends and to make the effort for having a good social circle. Different friends will come and go in your life and that’s the nature of the beast on this planet. I especially like your point about being married and needing lots of friends. This is something that can’t be over emphasized. Many unmarried women fantasize that their “man” will be all so understanding and empathetic and be their entire emotional support. Marriage doesn’t work that way. Men are mostly not wired to give the level of feminine understanding and emotional support women crave. Yes, a spouse is the primary source of support, but in normal circumstances, people must have other friendships as well. This must be prudent though because certain friendships outside of marriage can lead to emotional infidelity…

Yes.

I can’t speak to how men feel, but it’s generally not possible for a husband to fulfill all of a wife’s social and emotional needs, and it’s important to realize that as soon as possible and make appropriate allowances.

 

[Vico]

There’s a rather huge difference in this sort of thing between being told what you should do and what you should not do.

A gay person comes on the forum and says they’re really struggling. They feel like they don’t know how to live on their own. They can’t have close relationships with the same sex because of the possibility of temptation, plus it freaks people out. They can’t have close relationships with the opposite sex because of the possibility of temptation, and of scandal. But they desperately want to have a companion, someone who’s more than “just a friend”, without having a sexual relationship.

What good would telling them that gay sex is wrong do? What good would saying don’t have an opposite sex partner because of scandal do? All it’s done is reiterate stuff that they know without providing any solution, and it sure comes across as “wanting to satisfy your desires for companionship is wrong, because you are different.”

What is wrong is is not the desire but certain thoughts, words, and actions. Jesus Christ taught us that there is not always a justified way to satisfy a desire.

 

[Xantippe]

What is wrong is is not the desire but certain thoughts, words, and actions. Jesus Christ taught us that there is not always a justified way to satisfy a desire.

So, not only does a same-sex attracted person not get to have a sexual relationship, they also don’t get to have any close friends of either sex?

That can’t possibly be right.

And by the way, lots of women find other women sexually attractive without having same sex relationships. That’s not exactly freakishly uncommon.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Dark Light, have you read "Gay and Catholic: Accepting My Sexuality, Finding Community, Living My Faith" by Eve Tushnet? I’d be curious what you what you think of it and if the finding community part would be helpful to you.

 

[Vico]

So, not only does a same-sex attracted person not get to have a sexual relationship, they also don’t get to have any close friends of either sex?

That can’t possibly be right.

And by the way, lots of women find other women sexually attractive without having same sex relationships. That’s not exactly freakishly uncommon.

In a living situation, lust can’t possibly be right, also leading others into temptation can’t possibly be right.

I believe that those that are sexually attracted to both sexes or to their same sex can validly be married in the Catholic Church to the opposite sex, but not when is is undisclosed before the marriage and as long as the grant of conjugal rights is intended.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

In a living situation, lust can’t possibly be right, also leading others into temptation can’t possibly be right.

I believe that those that are sexually attracted to both sexes or to their same sex can validly be married in the Catholic Church to the opposite sex, but not when is is undisclosed before the marriage and as long as the grant of conjugal rights is intended.

I’m not sure what you are suggesting here. Do you think the only licit solution for someone who is attracted to the same sex is to marry someone of the opposite sex for the companionship, being sure to disclose the same sex attractions?

I’m attracted to men. I guess. I’m starting to think that I’m not straight/heterosexual because I’m not attracted to most men at all; there are only a handful that have ever really captured my interest. I wonder if sapiosexual is on the list of gender options on Facebook?

 

[DarkLight]

What is wrong is is not the desire but certain thoughts, words, and actions. Jesus Christ taught us that there is not always a justified way to satisfy a desire.

The point I’m making here is that not only the desires for what’s not allowed are being frustrated, but also the desires that are normal and by and large a necessary part of life. I’m finding that, at my age, friendships are pretty much entirely ephemeral things. People move regularly and friendships die with the distance. New boyfriends or girlfriends take up all people’s time; married friends have babies and drop out of social circles, at least those that aren’t with other new parents.

Also once you’re past college age, even if you have friends, you’re going to see them at most once a week. Generally what I’ve found is you see people one or two times a week, in a group setting, and then you spend the rest of your time alone. And that’s really lonely for someone like me. But most people think it’s weird and something bad must be going on if you do anything more than that.

I want stability, and I want to not be spending 90% of my time either alone or with people I don’t really know outside of work sort of relationships.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The fundamental problem is that I’m not interested in having sex with someone - honestly the whole idea just seems sort of weird and gross. I don’t want kids and I would never be willing to risk having them. In short, I don’t want a sexual relationship. At all. The best it could ever be for me would be submitting to something that I hated to make someone else happy.

But I don’t want to be alone. I want someone I can come home to and watch TV together. I want someone I can share secrets with and not worry about them being married to someone else. I don’t want to be forming relationships knowing that some day they want to marry - every single other person I’ve ever met wants to marry and start a family - and that’s going to change our intimacy too much.

And I just…I hate my life as it is. Even in a marriage I’d feel like a prostitute, trading something I find repulsive for emotional intimacy. It would ruin the relationship. But any other relationship I can form will eventually go away as the other person moves on. I can’t be sharing my life with a married person, and I’ve yet to meet a person who doesn’t want to be married and doesn’t want to be alone most of the time.

I know, my desires are all wrong and everything, but…that’s not something I can change. I don’t feel like I can make myself be happy like this, certainly not within the constraints of Catholicism. But what am I supposed to do?

The historical norm is that women sought emotional fulfillment in other women so the reality is that while modern society finds you a rather queer thing you are in fact normal.

I do not want to be married and I do not want to be alone most of the time. Perhaps we should engage in email correspondence.

 

[Vico]

The point I’m making here is that not only the desires for what’s not allowed are being frustrated, but also the desires that are normal and by and large a necessary part of life. I’m finding that, at my age, friendships are pretty much entirely ephemeral things. People move regularly and friendships die with the distance. New boyfriends or girlfriends take up all people’s time; married friends have babies and drop out of social circles, at least those that aren’t with other new parents.

Also once you’re past college age, even if you have friends, you’re going to see them at most once a week. Generally what I’ve found is you see people one or two times a week, in a group setting, and then you spend the rest of your time alone. And that’s really lonely for someone like me. But most people think it’s weird and something bad must be going on if you do anything more than that.

I want stability, and I want to not be spending 90% of my time either alone or with people I don’t really know outside of work sort of relationships.

Of course, yet it is not always possible to remain justified and fulfill normal desires.

 

[Vico]

I’m not sure what you are suggesting here. Do you think the only licit solution for someone who is attracted to the same sex is to marry someone of the opposite sex for the companionship, being sure to disclose the same sex attractions?

I’m attracted to men. I guess. I’m starting to think that I’m not straight/heterosexual because I’m not attracted to most men at all; there are only a handful that have ever really captured my interest. I wonder if sapiosexual is on the list of gender options on Facebook?

I’m saying that sin should be avoided, and that also means scandal. The original poster referred to living together, and not being married. Matrimony may be neither advisable nor licit for someone sexually attracted to the same sex.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m saying that sin should be avoided, and that also means scandal. The original poster referred to living together, and not being married. Matrimony may be neither advisable nor licit for someone sexually attracted to the same sex.

So you have any advice other than “sit around and be depressed”? Because that’s not a particularly good option, and yet that’s pretty much exactly what I find happens to me - even when I have more people around, having friends I see once a week is not enough to prevent me from feeling crippling loneliness and depression. I’m pretty sure God’s plan isn’t “sorry, guess you didn’t get the right attractions so you get to be miserable your whole life.”

And no, don’t try the just pray more line I always get. Sure, prayer’s great, but prayer can’t give you a hug when you’re down or get excited over a new idea with you.

 

[Vico]

So you have any advice other than “sit around and be depressed”? Because that’s not a particularly good option, and yet that’s pretty much exactly what I find happens to me - even when I have more people around, having friends I see once a week is not enough to prevent me from feeling crippling loneliness and depression. I’m pretty sure God’s plan isn’t “sorry, guess you didn’t get the right attractions so you get to be miserable your whole life.”

And no, don’t try the just pray more line I always get. Sure, prayer’s great, but prayer can’t give you a hug when you’re down or get excited over a new idea with you.

Loneliness manifests with feelings of depression, anxiety, and anger. Sometimes people that feel loneliness withdraw from existing social contacts or opportunities for contacts because of the fear of rejection. The normal advice of counselors is to develop personal interests, self-awareness, and seek contacts with others through educational, work, personal, and social contacts. One can contact local community mental health agencies or local hotline.

 

[DarkLight]

Loneliness manifests with feelings of depression, anxiety, and anger. Sometimes people that feel loneliness withdraw from existing social contacts or opportunities for contacts because of the fear of rejection. The normal advice of counselors is to develop personal interests, self-awareness, and seek contacts with others through educational, work, personal, and social contacts. One can contact local community mental health agencies or local hotline.

It’s not the lack of meeting people that matters, but the lack of a real connection. You end up with large numbers of relatively shallow, transient relationships. Those don’t affect loneliness for me. I could find someone I could chat with about gaming and pets and other such things just about any time I want. People like me well enough as a person to have around - though generally only so long as I stay upbeat enough all the time. Most people only want to be around others when they’re happy, and will shy away at any hint of something beyond “let’s hang out and have fun together.”

What’s missing are depth and stability. I find myself in a position of having plenty of friendly acquaintances, but those people by and large don’t want to be anything more. The relationships come and go quickly. A friend gets a job in another state and moves away. A young man decides that he can’t get a date if he’s friends with women and pulls back. A woman has her first child and stops talking to her single friends. Another burgeoning relationship vanishes from your life, yet no one notes it or cares because you were just friends. It’s silly to actually be hurt. Most relationships won’t even go that far - most people have their romantic partner and then a few friends they joke around with, but they wouldn’t consider a real connection with anyone else.

If you want someone to go out to the bar and have a few drinks, or spend some time gaming with, that’s easy.

 

[Xantippe]

Most relationships won’t even go that far - most people have their romantic partner and then a few friends they joke around with, but they wouldn’t consider a real connection with anyone else.

Or they’re “best friend” is a person that they met in 7th grade, lives three states away, and they actually see each other once a year.

I think there is a transition between student age friendships and grownup friendships, where students have lots of unstructured free time and grownups typically have extensive home responsibilities, so they don’t spend huge amounts of time with their friends anymore. Once a week is huge in my world. Back before my friend and her family moved out of state, a week with two morning get-togethers was absolutely huge and almost too much.

I haven’t read Eve Tushnet’s book, but read her blog for years. Friendship is one of her preoccupations.

A couple more ideas:

1. Again, I feel that work is much more promising than you might think as a venue for finding friends. (Although, maybe not in your academic area, but you can ask about how many female students and staff there are before going.) When there’s a shared mission and life experience, it’s a very natural place to find friendship. Probably the richest amount of friendships I’ve ever had was as a Peace Corps volunteer. That particular option probably isn’t open to you because of health, but it might give you some ideas as to what would work for you.
2. Don’t give up on the young moms until they give up on you. They get lonely, too, and the usual “mom topics” eventually lose their fascination. While evenings and weekends become less available, the rest of the day (especially morning) needs filling up. I’m always looking for a walking partner, and there’s nothing like a walk as an opportunity for animated, confidential chats.

 

[Xantippe]

I just remembered that there are such things as male asexuals who are nonetheless interested in companionship.

That’s a bit of a long shot, but it is an option, and certainly for friendship. (Marriage raises some stickier issues.)

You are not the only person out there looking for non-sexual companionship.

A bigger metropolitan city will help a lot, I think.