Dorothy Day - on the road to sainthood but also an anarchist

[Bill_7154]

Is there some cognitive dissonance in the move towards sainthood for Day? I get the impression from many on here that anarchism/libertarianism is anathema
to being a good Catholic.

I don’t know why anyone thinks that a system where men who control other men who carry guns who will follow orders, including initiation of force, and exert control over a population with the threat of force/violence as it’s tool to do so is something to be respected, honored, bowed to or saluted.

I believe in peaceful co-existance with other humans. I am an anarchist, an Anarcho-Capitalist to be specific.

Down with using violence to control the US population!

God Bless,
Bill

 

[sw85]

Your understanding of anarchism is incorrect. Anarchism is not inherently against hierarchy. I would call myself an anarchist (or preferably voluntaryist) and have no issue with the authority of the Church. One can be obedient to the Church but view the state as illegitimate.

Well, no, you can’t, since the Church’s teachings explicitly acknowledge the state’s authority as in principle legitimate and derived from God. See CCC part 3 section 1 chapter 2 article 2.

Hence why St. Paul exhorted the Romans to obey civil authorities, even though they committed the most monstrous act imaginable: deicide. (See also Romans 13).

Sorry, it was poorly written. I think saying something should be done “for the common good” is oftentimes utilitarianism and is used to deprive people of their rights.

Utilitarianism is maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain, by definition. So it is, as you say, antisocial at core. The common good is by definition anti-individualist (in the sense that it denies that the individual good outweighs the common good). Do you maybe mean consequentialist?

At any rate, how the “common good” is or isn’t abused in practice is irrelevant. It does exist and the state is legitimate by virtue of its natural ordering to it. This is the Church’s teaching, to which you are obliged to submit.

I don’t know why anyone thinks that a system where men who control other men who carry guns who will follow orders, including initiation of force, and exert control over a population with the threat of force/violence as it’s tool to do so is something to be respected, honored, bowed to or saluted.

I believe in peaceful co-existance with other humans. I am an anarchist, an Anarcho-Capitalist to be specific.

Down with using violence to control the US population!

God Bless,
Bill

Then you should repent of your errors and submit to the authentic Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

 

[Reep]

Originally Posted by JIB
One can be obedient to the Church but view the state as illegitimate.

How is that?

Church social teaching generally approves a presumably “just” state. That State–a state which the Church could largely approve as legitimate–probably does not exist in our world. Certainly no state that tramples people’s rights and kills innocents in wars all over world does not serve the common good.

Such a state is band of thieves and robbers. As St. Augustine wrote: “Remove justice, then, what are kingdoms but great robberies? For what are robberies themselves, but little kingdoms?” See .St. Augustine, Alexander, the pirate and other thieves

The mark of such a state is the use of (non-defensive) violence to gain compliance with its decrees. As the catechism asserts, when a state does not respect the rights of its members, "**authority can rely only on force or violence to obtain obedience from its subjects.”

I would therefore assert that–to the extent that any authority needs to use aggressive violence–it is illegitimate.

 

[CopticChristian]

Is there some cognitive dissonance in the move towards sainthood for Day? I get the impression from many on here that anarchism/libertarianism is anathema
to being a good Catholic.

J,

Here is a link to NPR discussing Dorothy Day. The priest that was interviewed says that her life and statements are in sync with Catholic teaching…

npr.org/2012/12/01/166291580/catholic-hero-dorothy-days-road-to-sainthood

 

[fix]

Church social teaching generally approves a presumably “just” state. That State–a state which the Church could largely approve as legitimate–probably does not exist in our world. Certainly no state that tramples people’s rights and kills innocents in wars all over world does not serve the common good.

Such a state is band of thieves and robbers. As St. Augustine wrote: “Remove justice, then, what are kingdoms but great robberies? For what are robberies themselves, but little kingdoms?” See St. Augustine, Alexander, the pirate and other thieves.

The mark of such a state is the use of (non-defensive) violence to gain compliance with its decrees. As the catechism asserts, when a state does not respect the rights of its members, "***authority can rely only on force or violence to obtain obedience ***from its subjects.”

I would therefore assert that–to the extent that any authority needs to use aggressive violence–it is illegitimate.

By your definition no state can ever be legitimate. Yet, that view is contrary to the Catholic view.

 

[fix]

Well, no, you can’t, since the Church’s teachings explicitly acknowledge the state’s authority as in principle legitimate and derived from God. See CCC part 3 section 1 chapter 2 article 2.

Hence why St. Paul exhorted the Romans to obey civil authorities, even though they committed the most monstrous act imaginable: deicide. (See also Romans 13)

Utilitarianism is maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain, by definition. So it is, as you say, antisocial at core. The common good is by definition anti-individualist (in the sense that it denies that the individual good outweighs the common good). Do you maybe mean consequentialist?

At any rate, how the “common good” is or isn’t abused in practice is irrelevant. It does exist and the state is legitimate by virtue of its natural ordering to it. This is the Church’s teaching, to which you are obliged to submit.

Then you should repent of your errors and submit to the authentic Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Amen

 

[iloveangels]

Amen

Her politics were not the real problem. Do some homework.

There are saints who are not canonized. The saints who are canonized are canonized for a reason: to serve as models for the living.

 

[fix]

Her politics were not the real problem. Do some homework.

There are saints who are not canonized. The saints who are canonized are canonized for a reason: to serve as models for the living.

I simply agreed with a poster’s explanation of Catholic teaching. He was not referring to Day, but to another poster.

I have not commented on Day or her politics .

 

[iloveangels]

I simply agreed with a poster’s explanation of Catholic teaching. He was not referring to Day, but to another poster.

But the thread’s about Dorothy Day, so that’s why I posted about Dorothy Day.

 

[ringil]

She was a self-proclaimed hippie. I am not even going to discuss the rest because it will make all those who defend her blow a gasket.

I pray that she won’t be canonized in our lifetime, maybe in another, but for the Church to canonize her now I feel would be making more of a political statement than anything else.

If she is canonized it is the will of God. The Church merely confirms what He has done.

 

[Reep]

Originally Posted by Reep
As the catechism asserts, when a state does not respect the rights of its members, "authority can rely only on force or violence to obtain obedience from its subjects.” I would therefore assert that–to the extent that any authority needs to use aggressive violence–it is illegitimate.​

By your definition no state can ever be legitimate. Yet, that view is contrary to the Catholic view.

I think not. How about Vatican City as a legitimate sovereign state? Funded by voluntary contributions. No invading other countries. I like it!

 

[BobCatholic]

Anarchism supports abolishing the state, not bomb throwing. It is also not anti-hierarchy, anti-Christian or anti-organization.

Unfortunately, experience says the opposite. Many anarchists don’t know what being an anarchist means.

 

[jwinch2]

“Distributist” would be a far better way to describe Dorothy Day than other terms people seem to be throwing around. She distrusted government to do what was best for people and wanted individuals to take responsibility for their own actions, and for helping each other.

Day, Dorothy. “Aims and Purposes”. The Catholic Worker, February 1940, 7. The Catholic Worker Movement. catholicworker.org/dorothyday/Reprint2.cfm?TextID=182.

 

[fix]

I think not. How about Vatican City as a legitimate sovereign state? Funded by voluntary contributions. No invading other countries. I like it!

You have one example of a state you deem legitimate. The Church disagrees with you.

 

[fix]

But the thread’s about Dorothy Day, so that’s why I posted about Dorothy Day.

Then why confuse my posts?

 

[iloveangels]

Then why confuse my posts?

This thread is ABOUT Dorothy Day. Dorothy Day had a lot of interesting things about her, and one of them was her political views, but that’s not the only odd thing about her. At. All.

 

[Reep]

You have one example of a state you deem legitimate. The Church disagrees with you.

You bring only a conclusion, but no argument. At least I gave an example. There are other Catholic libertarian societies that have existed, such as the Free State of Iceland that lasted 300 years and Ireland before the English conquest.

 

[jwinch2]

The Church does not condemn people for a lack of support for unjust governments, legitimately elected or not.

 

[ringil]

This thread is ABOUT Dorothy Day. Dorothy Day had a lot of interesting things about her, and one of them was her political views, but that’s not the only odd thing about her. At. All.

Well, by all means, share. . . . .

 

[CopticChristian]

This thread is ABOUT Dorothy Day. Dorothy Day had a lot of interesting things about her, and one of them was her political views, but that’s not the only odd thing about her. At. All.

ILA,

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1204800.htm

Here the US Bishops have agreed by voice that Day is to be elevated to Saint…

Cardinal Dolan called Day’s journey “Augustinian,” saying that “she was the first to admit it: sexual immorality, there was a religious search, there was a pregnancy out of wedlock, and an abortion. Like Saul on the way to Damascus, she was radically changed” and has become “a saint for our time.”

“Of all the people we need to reach out to, all the people that are hard to get at, the street people, the ones who are on drugs, the ones who have had abortions, she was one of them,” Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick said of Day. The retired archbishop of Washington is a native New Yorker.

It means that she can be a model for some but not for all…while listening to the Catechism of the USA, audio, there are many that are named as Saints…including Caesar Chavez…not canonized…

I think if Day can cause or be the source of inspiration for the Faith…then I am able to agree with the US Bishops…

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1206.asp

Women founders of religious communities: I was edified by the intrepid pioneer spirit of the six sister-founders who introduce various chapters. Elizabeth Seton, Frances Cabrini, Rose Hawthorne Lathrop and Katharine Drexel are perhaps better known but no more courageous than Henriette Delille, who challenged Catholics to overcome prejudice, and Mother Joseph, honored in Washington, D.C.’s Statuary Hall. Sister Thea Bowman was not a founder in her own right, but perhaps is best placed together with these women, given her prophetic voice for Black Catholics in the Church.

Lay leaders: Dorothy Day and César Chávez have long been heroes to me and champions of social justice, but I had not been familiar with journalists Orestes Brownson and John Boyle O’Reilly or lay apostle Carlos Manuel Rodriguez of Puerto Rico. Pierre Toussaint and Kateri Tekakwitha may have ministered more quietly, but they nevertheless led by example. Catherine de Hueck Doherty, though not a U.S. citizen, profoundly influenced many Americans through the houses devoted to the lay apostolate she and her husband founded throughout the world.

Someone for everyone…