Dorothy Day & The Catholic Worker Movement

  • Thread starter Thread starter LaMar
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Sorry I hijacked the thread puzzleannie. ill bow out.
I’m the original poster, and I appreciate criticism and don’t consider this a hijack.

Puzzle Annie is one of 6 people who I have on ignore, so I don’t see that person’s posts, but I appreciate her thoughts also.

The stuff you wrote is really quite relevant to the 20th century leftish experience. Leon Trotsky criticized Stalin and brought up the same points you did.

If you’re really taking off, I appreciate you taking the time to express yourself. You did so in a dignified fashion and raised important points. Hopefully we’ll argue again sometime.

Take Care,

LaMar
 
Actually it is called ‘personalism’. Read the catechism and social justice. It is not very complimentary toward capitalism and materialism.
At the same time, he seems to be making valid points.

There was a tendency for modern Socialists/Communists to get distracted. Lenin talked about how “all revolutions fail”.

In the early days of the USSR you had people setting up autonomous communes and writing their own laws. After a few years the soviets (councils) were forcibly annexed, and the Communist Party looked more and more like a new “ruling class”, with all the inherent problems it had fought against.

Stalin was a personality cult, same with Mao, and to a lesser extent Castro. These all ended up looking like societies which Marx and Lenin would have agitated against, rather than joined.

I’m convinced Dorothy Day had the right idea. Too many of us wasted our time on theoretical stuff. She got out into the streets and made things happen. The world needs more such characters.
 
I’m the original poster, and I appreciate criticism and don’t consider this a hijack.

Puzzle Annie is one of 6 people who I have on ignore, so I don’t see that person’s posts, but I appreciate her thoughts also.

The stuff you wrote is really quite relevant to the 20th century leftish experience. Leon Trotsky criticized Stalin and brought up the same points you did.

If you’re really taking off, I appreciate you taking the time to express yourself. You did so in a dignified fashion and raised important points. Hopefully we’ll argue again sometime.

Take Care,

LaMar
Let me give you an example captialism at its best(IMO). i have been going to Cozumel after tax season for over 20 years. When I first went there extreme poverty was evdident. Lots of people lived in shacks and stick houses.Little girls stood on the corner selling candy. The gap between the rich and the poor was immense. Traffic was almost non-existent and most of the locals went everywhere on 3 wheel bikes with a basket attached.

About 5 years ago they built a new pier for cruise ships, The ships started comimg 6 days a week and are dropping off as many as 50,000 toursits day. The result-the rich are now fitlhy rich BUT poverty is nearly non-existent/ no more shacks, no more sitck houses. no more lilltle kids selling candy and traffice lights have been installed all over the island to handle the over 50,000 mopeds used by the locals. Now should we curse the rich for their windfall or praise the Lord for the increased quality of life for the overwhelming majority of the locals?
 
Let me give you an example captialism at its best(IMO). i have been going to Cozumel after tax season for over 20 years. When I first went there extreme poverty was evdident. Lots of people lived in shacks and stick houses.Little girls stood on the corner selling candy. The gap between the rich and the poor was immense. Traffic was almost non-existent and most of the locals went everywhere on 3 wheel bikes with a basket attached.

About 5 years ago they built a new pier for cruise ships, The ships started comimg 6 days a week and are dropping off as many as 50,000 toursits day. The result-the rich are now fitlhy rich BUT poverty is nearly non-existent/ no more shacks, no more sitck houses. no more lilltle kids selling candy and traffice lights have been installed all over the island to handle the over 50,000 mopeds used by the locals. Now should we curse the rich for their windfall or praise the Lord for the increased quality of life for the overwhelming majority of the locals?
My experience also, on the island of Roatan in Honduras. It used to be in extreme poverty, with a few wealthy individuals. These wealthy individuals paved the airport (it was dirt), built a modern infrastructure of sewer and water, built hotels, and now the place is much less impoverished. People have jobs, the town has more businesses. And yes, the rich are now very rich, but the poverty has been lessened to a very large degree.

I do believe though, what both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have repeatedly said. Extreme wealth in the face of extreme poverty is a sin. The wealthy should be using their resources to help the poor. This, to me, is where Catholic Worker is in line with the Catholic Church.

Capitalism can be, and should be, a tool to help people. If it is used as a tool to exploit the poor, or the poor are ignored altogether, then we need to rethink how and where we expend our resources. Not get rid of the tools that can be used for good.
 
Hi Estes Bob,

Thanks for an interesting rebuttal.
Let me give you an example captialism at its best(IMO). i have been going to Cozumel after tax season for over 20 years. When I first went there extreme poverty was evdident. Lots of people lived in shacks and stick houses.Little girls stood on the corner selling candy. The gap between the rich and the poor was immense. Traffic was almost non-existent and most of the locals went everywhere on 3 wheel bikes with a basket attached.

About 5 years ago they built a new pier for cruise ships, The ships started comimg 6 days a week and are dropping off as many as 50,000 toursits day. The result-the rich are now fitlhy rich BUT poverty is nearly non-existent/ no more shacks, no more sitck houses. no more lilltle kids selling candy and traffice lights have been installed all over the island to handle the over 50,000 mopeds used by the locals. Now should we curse the rich for their windfall or praise the Lord for the increased quality of life for the overwhelming majority of the locals?
Of course I agree that anything that dignifies working people, even if it’s a short-term trend that will disappear in a few years, is a good thing.

With respect, if this is the best Capitalism has to offer, then it’s not that great. What you’re describing is what Marx called alienation. It’s a simple market trend.

At first, there is a surplus of workers. This leads to many being unemployed and poverty being widespread.

Then, capital comes along and builds some new project. All of a sudden, there are more jobs than people. Wages rise temporarily in an effort to attract outsiders to the area.

Either way, people are alienated from their proper relationship to their work, their world and their products. Human beings are dehumanized, and people are seen as simply a commodity which is bought at a higher price when in demand, and discarded when not.

The very wealthy are alienated too. They use capital to buy and sell, but produce nothing. They see the great masses of people not as their brothers and sisters, but as dehumanized herd animals to be bought and sold. They imprison themselves inside “gated communities” (my parents are good examples of this phenomenon) in houses large enough to house 50 people, and they fill their meaningless lives with consumerism and products rather than human relationships.

In a just society, people would be expected to produce something of value, and we’d be paid a fair wage in return. We’d have leisure time, and places to live, and time to study and improve ourselves. That’s all Dorothy Day wanted, and that’s all I want too.
 
I just added it to my Netflix queue! Thanks!!

I’ll post a review on this thread after I watch it.

“If you feed the poor, you’re a saint…if you ask why the poor exist, you’re a communist”
Actually, if you ask why the poor exist, your’e a conservative – and an enemy of the NEA.😛
 
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