Dorothy Day

[Bill_Samuel]

There is no evidence that Pope John Paul II opposed the Iraq war.

This is an incredible statement, considering that American newspapers reported over and over again statements he made against the war, from before the U.S. started the war until his death. Here’s a Catholic News report from shortly after the beginning of the war:

Pope says Iraq war threatens humanity

Pope John Paul, in his first public comment on the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq, said on Saturday that the war threatens the whole of humanity, and that weapons could never solve mankind’s problems.

“When war, like the one now in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim, with a firm and decisive voice, that only peace is the way of building a more just and caring society,” he said.

The Pope, in a speech to employees of Catholic television station Telepace, added: “Violence and weapons can never resolve the problems of man.”

The Pope led the Vatican in a diplomatic campaign to avert war, putting the Holy See on a collision course with Washington and its backers in the Iraq campaign.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

I hate bust your bubble but peace doesn’t necessarily mean the absence of war.

I don’t know why you would think that statement is busting my bubble when previously in post #36 I posted from CCC 2304:
Respect for and development of human life require peace.** Peace is not merely the absence of war,**

Originally Posted by RachelsAlumni View Post
Actually there is such a thing as Just War doctrine, you even quoted it earlier from CCC 2309 here in post #27

bones_IV,
you deleted or missed the statement in CCC2309 that directly follows which says:

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

I suggest you also read Catholic Answers document on Just War doctrine: catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp

There is no evidence that Pope John Paul II opposed the Iraq war.

False. Utterly false.
There is a plethora of evidence that Pope John Paul II opposed the Iraq War. There are so many sources it’s hard to narrow them down but here are just a few:

John Paul II stated before the 2003 war that this war would be a defeat for humanity which could not be morally or legally justified.
The Pope spoke out almost every day against war and in support of diplomatic efforts for peace.
John Paul II sent his personal representative, Cardinal Pio Laghi, a friend of the Bush family, to remonstrate with the U.S. President before the war began. Pio Laghi said such a war would be illegal and unjust. The message was clear: God is not on your side if you invade Iraq.
After the United States began its attacks against Iraq, FOX News actually reported the immediate comments of the Holy Father, made in an address at the Vatican to members of an Italian religious television channel, Telespace: “When war, as in these days in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is ever more urgent to proclaim, with a strong and decisive voice, that only peace is the road to follow to construct a more just and united society,” John Paul said. "Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of man."http://www.cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html

In an Address to the Diplomatic Corps at the Vatican on January 13, 2003, the Pope declared that “War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations” and reiterated that “war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”
Two months later, on March 16, 2003, in his Angelus Message, Pope John Paul spoke of the need “to work with responsibility for peace” and declared that all options had not been exhausted: “There is still time to negotiate; there is still room for peace, it is never too late to come to an understanding and to continue discussions.” The war began two days later, on March 18, 2003.
Pope John Paul did not drop his opposition to the war once it had started. On June 4, 2004, in an Address to President Bush (who was visiting him at the Vatican), the Pope reminded the President that: "You are very familiar with the unequivocal position of the Holy See in this regard, expressed in numerous documents, through direct and indirect contacts, and in the many diplomatic efforts which have been made since you visited me, first at Castelgandolfo on 23 July 2001, and again in this Apostolic Palace on 28 May 2002."Popes Who Resigned - Pontiffs that Abdicated

can you provide evidence to contrary?

 

[bones_IV]

I don’t know why you would think that statement is busting my bubble when previously in post #36 I posted from CCC 2304:
Respect for and development of human life require peace.** Peace is not merely the absence of war,**

bones_IV,
you deleted or missed the statement in CCC2309 that directly follows which says:

I suggest you also read Catholic Answers document on Just War doctrine: catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp

False. Utterly false.
There is a plethora of evidence that Pope John Paul II opposed the Iraq War. There are so many sources it’s hard to narrow them down but here are just a few:

can you provide evidence to contrary?

Than why did Benedict XVI say that we should support the war? Do you suggest that we turn around and looking the other in the face of genocide? To not do anything in Iraq would be morally irresponsible! I’m not that isolationist. Again, this is not binding on Catholics. Teachers can be wrong too you know. We have a thing called the principle of double effect. An intended consequence and an unintended consequence.

 

[Bill_Samuel]

Than why did Benedict XVI say that we should support the war?

He didn’t. Why do you keep posting obvious falsehoods? It’s one thing to have different views, but facts are facts. And it is a fact that the Vatican has been consistently outspoken against the Iraq War over both papacies since before the war began.

 

[bones_IV]

He didn’t. Why do you keep posting obvious falsehoods? It’s one thing to have different views, but facts are facts. And it is a fact that the Vatican has been consistently outspoken against the Iraq War over both papacies since before the war began.

Perhaps this will help.

** Question from on 05-16-2007**
I was reading information at cjd.org, the catholic social worker movement magazine. They state that Pope John Paul II has pronounced the Iraq war as an unjust war. Is this true? If so or not, could you give me or refer me to the official church document that refer to this decision, if there is one?I read the CCC which discussed the requirements for a Just War. I don’t see where the US is in violation of this. But maybe I am wrong.
Thank you very much.
God Bless You
Jerry
**
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 05-17-2007:**
According to the Church’s teaching, it is not within the expertise of the Church to declare this or that war as unjust. Rather, the Church teaches that it is within the competence and responsibility of the legitimate civil authority to determine whether a given war is morally justifiable. It is certainly within the Church’s teaching authority to exhort civil rulers to carry out their responsibility with regard to determining whether a given war is morally justifiable.

Oh yes, here’s another one.

Answer by Judie Brown on 05-08-2007: Dear AndrewThank you for your comments. Suffice it to say that many have debated the validity and the morality of the Iraq War; **however we cannot equate a Papal statement in opposition to war as equivalent to a Church teaching. The Pope is obliged to oppose war in any and all circumstances and we are all grateful to the Holy Father for his wisdom on this question. However that does NOT mean that support for the war is immoral.
Further, as you may know, the Death Penalty is not and never has been defined by the Church as an intrinsically evil act. Rather, it is an act that should be used rarely according to Church teaching.
You are attempting to confuse the direct act of murdering a preborn child with other questions, and that is simply wrong. As long as America is killing thousands of her own citizens daily by acts of abortion, there will never be peace or justice in this nation.
Judie Brown

Further more, The application of these principles is where great variety of thought enters. Rachelsalumni, tell me, if the Vatican had in fact declared it an unjust war then why are so many Catholics in good conscience participating in it? Tell me that.

 

[Bill_Samuel]

No, that doesn’t help. You said Pope Benedict said we should support the war, and this doesn’t provide any evidence that is true. The facts are clear that probably the first army deserter to be named Pope, at least in the modern era, is firmly opposed to the Iraq War.

As a Cardinal, the new pope was a staunch critic of the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. On one occasion before the war, he was asked whether it would be just. “Certainly not,” he said, and explained that the situation led him to conclude that “the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save.”

“All I can do is invite you to read the Catechism, and the conclusion seems obvious to me…” The conclusion is one he gave many times: “the concept of preventive war does not appear in The Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

Even after the war, Cardinal Ratzinger did not cease criticism of U.S. violence and imperialism: “it was right to resist the war and its threats of destruction…It should never be the responsibility of just one nation to make decisions for the world.”

Yet perhaps the most important insight of Ratzinger came during a press conference on May 2, 2003. After suggesting that perhaps it would be necessary to revise the Catechism section on just war (perhaps because it had been used by George Weigel and others to endorse a war the Church opposed), Ratzinger offered a deep insight that included but went beyond the issue of war Iraq:

“There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war’.”

Pope Benedict on Iraq

By Richard John Neuhaus
Tuesday, April 10, 2007, 10:03 AM

In the context of his Urbi et Orbi address on Easter Sunday, Pope Benedict observed that “nothing positive comes from Iraq, torn apart by continual slaughter as the civil population flees.” An Italian-speaking friend tells me a better translation would be, “There is no good news from Iraq.” I’m not sure that makes much difference.

From the few public comments he has made over the years, and from those who are presumably familiar with his thinking, it seems evident enough that Benedict has been very skeptical about the policy of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq. Much quoted is Cardinal Ratzinger’s response to a question back when the war was getting under way that the category of preemptive war is not to be found in The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Pope decries ‘slaughter’ in Iraq [BBC, April 8, 2007]

The Pope said there was still much suffering in the world
Pope Benedict XVI has lamented that “nothing positive comes from Iraq”, in his Easter message in St Peter’s Square at the Vatican.

In a live televised address, the pontiff said Iraq was being “torn apart by continual slaughter”.

Bringing it up-to-date, from yesterday:

Pope calls for end to Iraq war
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict, elevating 23 prelates from around the world to the elite rank of cardinal, made a pressing appeal on Saturday for an end to the war in Iraq and decried the plight of the country’s Christian minority.

 

[bones_IV]

No, that doesn’t help. You said Pope Benedict said we should support the war, and this doesn’t provide any evidence that is true. The facts are clear that probably the first army deserter to be named Pope, at least in the modern era, is firmly opposed to the Iraq War.

Bringing it up-to-date, from yesterday:

Again it’s not binding on Catholics. The fact that he opposes the war can’t be equated with Catholic teaching. I’m afraid you’re confusing apples and oranges.

 

[Bill_Samuel]

No, you made a statement about the Pope which was false. It’s not the first time you’ve done this. It’s a pattern.

The extent to which the statements of the Pope are Church teaching, and whether Papal positions can be considered in opposition to Church teaching are interesting questions, but probably best pursued in a different part of this Forum. And I’m not very knowledgeable on that.

It is one thing to disagree with a Papal statement. It is quite another to state the Pope said your view on something when in fact what he said was opposite to your view. Does the Church have a position on truth telling?

 

[bones_IV]

No, you made a statement about the Pope which was false. It’s not the first time you’ve done this. It’s a pattern.

The extent to which the statements of the Pope are Church teaching, and whether Papal positions can be considered in opposition to Church teaching are interesting questions, but probably best pursued in a different part of this Forum. And I’m not very knowledgeable on that.

It is one thing to disagree with a Papal statement. It is quite another to state the Pope said your view on something when in fact what he said was opposite to your view. Does the Church have a position on truth telling?

So what if he opposed the war? Doesn’t mean it’s binding on Catholics.

 

[bones_IV]

It seems that Rachelsalumni’s premise is that Iraq War being a preemptive war which it isn’t. It is the action taken to fulfill UN Resolution 1441 to bring an end to a long conflict begun by Iraq in the Gulf War. So, it is a non sequitur.

In the case of Saddam, we were certain he had all intentions and means to inflict substantial and lasting damage (e.g., death, destruction, economic hardship) upon US possessions abroad and in the US. What’s more with terrorists hitting us over the last 20 years, we knew he could do it too.

Here is what St. Thomas actually said, if anyone is interested:

*I answer that, In order for a war to be just, three things are necessary. First, the authority of the sovereign by whose command the war is to be waged. For it is not the business of a private individual to declare war, because he can seek for redress of his rights from the tribunal of his superior. Moreover it is not the business of a private individual to summon together the people, which has to be done in wartime. And as the care of the common weal is committed to those who are in authority, it is their business to watch over the common weal of the city, kingdom or province subject to them. And just as it is lawful for them to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Rm. 13:4): “He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil”; so too, it is their business to have recourse to the sword of war in defending the common weal against external enemies. Hence it is said to those who are in authority (Ps. 81:4): “Rescue the poor: and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner”; and for this reason Augustine says (Contra Faust. xxii, 75): “The natural order conducive to peace among mortals demands that the power to declare and counsel war should be in the hands of those who hold the supreme authority.” *

*Secondly, a just cause is required, namely that those who are attacked, should be attacked because they deserve it on account of some fault. Wherefore Augustine says (Questions. in Hept., qu. x, super Jos.): “A just war is wont to be described as one that avenges wrongs, when a nation or state has to be punished, for refusing to make amends for the wrongs inflicted by its subjects, or to restore what it has seized unjustly.” *

*Thirdly, it is necessary that the belligerents should have a rightful intention, so that they intend the advancement of good, or the avoidance of evil. Hence Augustine says (De Verb. Dom. *The words quoted are to be found not in St. Augustine’s works, but Can. Apud. Caus. xxiii, qu. 1]): “True religion looks upon as peaceful those wars that are waged not for motives of aggrandizement, or cruelty, but with the object of securing peace, of punishing evil-doers, and of uplifting the good.” For it may happen that the war is declared by the legitimate authority, and for a just cause, and yet be rendered unlawful through a wicked intention. Hence Augustine says (Contra Faust. xxii, 74): “The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such like things, all these are rightly condemned in war.” *
**St. Thomas Aquinas **
**The Summa Theologica **
**Part II, Question 40 **

 

[RachelsAlumni]

It seems that Rachelsalumni’s premise is that Iraq War being a preemptive war which it isn’t.

Please don’t now mindread, misquote and misrepresent me as well. I agree with Mr. Samuel that you have made a pattern of false accusations throughout this thread. You have completely hijacked this discussion from one about Dorothy Day into one about the war in Iraq. If you care to honestly discuss/debate the Iraq war there are more than a sufficient number of threads in progress. Try the In the News/War on Terror forum.

 

[Steeltemplar]

I think that it is one thing to be pacifistic about yourself and another to be pacifistic when it relates to situations where someone else is in danger. If you want to risk your own life in order to be non-violent, then you can make that decision. However, I do not think that you have the moral right to allow someone else to be harmed because you will not use violence to save them. We do have a responsibility to help protect the innocent from harm.

 

[aimee]

So what if he opposed the war? Doesn’t mean it’s binding on Catholics.

I agree Bones but some folks don’t understand because I don’t think their catholic

 

[roymckenzie]

Interesting, Pope John Paul II has received the same criticism/condemnation by secularists and neoconservatives for his opposition to the Iraq war, and his insistence on Peace. There is a long list of saints and servants of the church who actively strived as peacemakers, too numerous to even go into here. I believe these peacemakers, Dorothy Day & Pope John Paul II were more concerned with the salvation of souls and obeying the great commandment than they were with the opinions of this world. That makes them more like saints than traitors in my mind.

Pope John Paul II thought war was an act of last resort as do I a 13 year United States Army veteran. I have been able to find where Pope John Paul II suggested that we should exercise every effort to avoid war when possible put I have not found where the Pope condemned the war or said explicitly that he condemned the actions of the United States.

The radical hate America crowd has been taking Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI out of context suggesting they want to be makers of US foreign policy. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have never suggested that they have the competence based on Vatican intelligence to know if the current war in Iraq is just or not. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI both have suggested when possible war should be avoided.

The “Catechism of the Catholic Church” as part of the deposit of the doctrine of the faith, and has equal standing with the “Holy Bible” clearly states in CCC [1909](javascript:OpenPopupWindow(%22%3cp%3e%3ca%20href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage() “Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defence.”

 

[RachelsAlumni]

The radical hate America crowd has been taking Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI out of context.

This is painting with a an awfully broad brush. So now anyone who quotes verbatim what the Holy Fathers have said is part of “the radical hate America crowd” if such quotes oppose war?

The “Catechism of the Catholic Church” as part of the deposit of the doctrine of the faith, and has equal standing with the “Holy Bible” clearly states in CCC 1909
“Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defence.”

“And what are we to say of the threat of a war which could strike the people of Iraq, the land of the Prophets, a people already sorely tried by more than twelve years of embargo? War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations.” vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html

The Holy See is convinced that in the efforts to draw strength from the wealth of peaceful tools provided by the international law, to resort to force would not be a just one. To the grave consequences for a civilian population that has already been tested long enough, are added the dark prospects of tensions and conflicts between peoples and cultures and the deprecated reintroduction of war as a way to resolve untenable situations. vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030219_migliore-security-council_en.html

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

This thread is off topic. Thank you to all who participated, this thread is now closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary