Douay: additional wording not in other translations. How did Jerome arrive at this?

[boomerang]

I noticed a unique verse (in bold) in the Douay and the Vulgate that does not appear in any other translation, except for the Wycliffe version. How did Jerome arrive at this verse? What manuscripts did he use that subsequent versions no longer use? Do you think he just added this on his own?

Douay Rheims: Isaias 22:17- 18 Behold the Lord will cause thee to be carried away, as a cock is carried away, and he will lift thee up as a garment.
18 **He will crown thee with a crown of tribulation, **he will toss thee like a ball into a large and spacious country: there shalt thou die, and there shall the chariot of thy glory be, the shame of the house of thy Lord.

Wycliffe Bible: 17 Lo! the Lord shall make thee to be borne out, as a capon is borne out, and as a cloth, so he shall raise thee. (Lo! the Lord shall make thee to be taken away, like a capon is taken away, and he shall shake thee out, like a cloak is shaken out.)
18 He crowning shall crown thee with tribulation;

Every other translation is similar to this:
NRSV-CE: 17 The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my fellow. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there your splendid chariots shall lie, O you disgrace to your master’s house! 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your post.

Any ideas?

 

[patrick457]

I noticed a unique verse (in bold) in the Douay and the Vulgate that does not appear in any other translation, except for the Wycliffe version. How did Jerome arrive at this verse? What manuscripts did he use that subsequent versions no longer use? Do you think he just added this on his own?

Douay Rheims: Isaias 22:17- 18 Behold the Lord will cause thee to be carried away, as a cock is carried away, and he will lift thee up as a garment.
18 **He will crown thee with a crown of tribulation, **he will toss thee like a ball into a large and spacious country: there shalt thou die, and there shall the chariot of thy glory be, the shame of the house of thy Lord.

Wycliffe Bible: 17 Lo! the Lord shall make thee to be borne out, as a capon is borne out, and as a cloth, so he shall raise thee. (Lo! the Lord shall make thee to be taken away, like a capon is taken away, and he shall shake thee out, like a cloak is shaken out.)
18 He crowning shall crown thee with tribulation;

Every other translation is similar to this:
NRSV-CE: 17 The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my fellow. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there your splendid chariots shall lie, O you disgrace to your master’s house! 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your post.

Any ideas?

That’s funny, because the Wycliff version was translated from the Vulgate just like the Douai-Rheims (the first English translation to use Hebrew and Greek texts was Tyndale’s). Are you talking about the words in parentheses? If so, I’d just like to ask first what source you got the passage from. I’m asking because there are really two versions of Wycliffe - an earlier one, where the translation was more literal and stilted, and a later one, which is a little more natural.

EDIT: Sorry, I completely misunderstood your question - I’m getting very drowsy. Apparently this is a case of an obscurity in the original text: the original Hebrew has the word gāḇer, which is a bit difficult to translate here. Does it mean “man” (thus yielding “Yhwh will hurl you away with the hurling of a man” or “Yhwh will hurl you away with a hurling (i.e. will hurl you away violently), O man!”) the interpretation followed by most English translations, or does it mean “rooster” (“Yhwh will carry you away with the captivity of a rooster”), which is how Jerome read the passage?

 

[PJM]

=boomerang;11860201]I noticed a unique verse (in bold) in the Douay and the Vulgate that does not appear in any other translation, except for the Wycliffe version. How did Jerome arrive at this verse? What manuscripts did he use that subsequent versions no longer use? Do you think he just added this on his own?

Douay Rheims: Isaias 22:17- 18 Behold the Lord will cause thee to be carried away, as a cock is carried away, and he will lift thee up as a garment.
18 **He will crown thee with a crown of tribulation, **he will toss thee like a ball into a large and spacious country: there shalt thou die, and there shall the chariot of thy glory be, the shame of the house of thy Lord.

Wycliffe Bible: 17 Lo! the Lord shall make thee to be borne out, as a capon is borne out, and as a cloth, so he shall raise thee. (Lo! the Lord shall make thee to be taken away, like a capon is taken away, and he shall shake thee out, like a cloak is shaken out.)
18 He crowning shall crown thee with tribulation;

Every other translation is similar to this:
NRSV-CE: 17 The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my fellow. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there your splendid chariots shall lie, O you disgrace to your master’s house! 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your post.

Any ideas?

SURE

The motives, End goals and message were done by Jerome [Inspired by God and Approved by a reigning Pope] in line with a conversion of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and Latin into what was then the “common language” of the “world”: LATIN. This was done by one woth no agenda other than truthful translation.

One cannot say that of any of the Protest- REFORMERS; who clearly had a agenda to make the bible as much as possible reflect their own philosophy and theologies. And was proven by the removal of seven entire books and well as other verbage changes.

That is why it is so very important to use a good catholic Bible:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
patrick

 

[Ambien89]

Jerome gave precedence to the Septuagint if I remember correctly. He also had access to different Herew texts than Masoretic Text that is used today. I may be wrong on these points though.

 

[ProVobis]

The motives, End goals and message were done by Jerome [Inspired by God and Approved by a reigning Pope] in line with a conversion of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and Latin into what was then the “common language” of the “world”: LATIN. This was done by one woth no agenda other than truthful translation.

Actually Vulgar Latin (not to be confused with Latin Vulgate) was the common language of the day. The average Roman probably wouldn’t have known what a third conjugation pluperfect subjunctive was, among other things. The various versions of that vernacular (VL) then evolved into the Romance languages we have today.

There had been an earlier Latin version (Vetus Latina) which the scholarly Jerome “upgraded” to be more in line with the Hebrew, Greek, etc. texts, which had been more available then. The language in which Jerome wrote was one which had been codified by the genius of Cicero et al and which was felt to be so immutable that the Church also chose to make it the language of the liturgy and one in which all its documents could be preserved. The fact that Pilate chose it as one of the languages he used in the inscription above the cross probably had a lot to do with it as well.