Douay-Rheims Bible

[Jason_1977]

I have heard it before but never delved into it at all, can someone help me out in understanding this version of the bible? This has deuteroCanonical books I’ve never heard of before (converted to catholicism easter '08~I’m new, be patient, lol) Does anyone know if THIS was the bible that was used for 1500 some odd years? My other question is how is it that it differs so much from the NAB? I’m just curious, i want to gain a better understanding. Any and all (name removed by moderator)ut is greatly appreciated!!! THANX IN ADVANCE!!!

 

[NHInsider]

Hi-
it’s not a different Bible, just the old titles.

1 and 2 Esdras are Ezra and Nehemiah (3 and 4 Esdras, if they’re in your copy, are non-canonical)

1 and 2 Kings are 1 and 2 Samuel, 3 and 4 Kings are 1 and 2 Kings (this is the most confusing one)

1 and 2 Paralipomenon (sp??) are 1 and 2 Chronicles

Ecclesiasticus is Sirach

Canticle of Canticles is Song of Songs or Song of Solomon.

otherwise I think there are some spelling difference, generally reflecting Latin vs transliterated Hebrew- Isaias and Jonas are Isaiah and Jonah, etc. Osee is Hosea. Abidias is Obadiah. Sophonias is Zephaniah, Aggeus is Haggai. The rest are more obvious.

So yes, the same Bible that’s been around since the beginning.

 

[Derwin_James]

The Douay- Rheims Version (DRV) was completed in the late 1500’s, early 1600’s. It predates the King James by about 5-10 years.

The difference between the DRV and the NAB are similar to the differences between the KJV and the NIV or some of the more contemporary translations. I don’t think the DRV has any deuterocannonical books aside from whats in the NAB; rather, they are kept separate. For example, the “book” Bel and the Dragon is more appropriately known as chapter 14 to the book of Daniel.

 

[wardrandolph]

The D.R.Bible was translated from the Vulgate.The Catholics who fled England,because of persecution settled in two towns in France.Douay and Rheims.They wanted a Bible in their own language(English).The old Testament was completed about the mid 1500’s.The complete Old and New Testament was finished about 15-20yrs.before the KJV.Bible.The Books are the same but are called differant names,Josue=Joshua,1,2,3,4 Kings are 1Sam,2Sam,1Kings,2Kings.1 and 2 Paralipomenon are 1,2 Chron.1Erasdas is Ezra,2Ezra is Nehemiah.Canticle of Canticles is the Song of Songs.Ecclesiasticus is Sirach,Issais is Isaiah.Osee is Hosea,Abdias is Obidiah.Micheas is Micah.Habacue is Habakkuk.Sophonias is Zephaniah…Aggeus is Haggai.Also the D.R. is in Chronilogical order,The NAB are placed in "types of books(Historical,Prophetic,Wisdom etc).Hope this helps,Rocky.

 

[Omyo12]

To add what the others have said,

Technically the Douay Rheims predates the King James Version

The Rheims New Testament was published in 1582
The Douay Old Testament followed, published in 1609
The** King James Version** was published in 1611

However, the DR was heavily revised between 1749 through 1752 by Bishop Challoner
So a better title would be “Douay Rheims- Challoner Revision”

(Some people call it the Douay-Challoner but this is a misguiding title, since the Douay is only the name of the OT translation and Rheims of the NT translation)

Oddly enough, this revision was inspired by the King James Version many times.

Example:

Hebrews 1 (Rheims 1582)
1 Diversely and many ways in times past God speaking to the fathers in the prophets,
2 last of all in these days hath spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all, by whom he made also the worlds.
3 Who, being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and carrying all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the Majesty in the high places;
4 being made so much better than angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name above them.

Hebrews 1 (KJV 1611)
1 God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 1 (Challoner revision 1752)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world.
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high,
4 being made so much better than the Angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.

You can find the original Douay Rheims of 1609 but it’ll cost you. Its really not worth it since it’s harder to read and is very expensive.

Another important point, the** Douay Rheims **is a translation of the Latin Vulgate (Clementine Edition), not the Hebrew/Greek manuscripts like the NAB (though it is compared to the Hebrew/Greek by Bishop Challoner)

The Latin Vulgate was translation by St. Jerome commissioned in 382 A.D.
The New Testament was translated from the Greek NT and the Old Testament from the Hebrew with heavy influence from the Greek Septuagint. (the Septuagint or LXX, is a pre-Christian translation of the Hebrew for Greek-speaking Jews).

Over time, there were a number of manuscripts of the Vulgate that were passed down however, like we see in many Hebrew/Greek manuscripts, they varied to some degree since it was copied by scribes (the printing press was not invented yet). So in 1590 a “critical” version of the Latin Vulgate was published that is known as the Clementine Vulgate, this edition of the Vulgate was the official edition used by the Roman Catholic Church until 1979 when it was replaced by the Nova Vulgata.

For the English speaking world, the Douay Rheims was the only Catholic Bible from 1609 (revised in 1752) until 1941 when the Rheims was revised again (from the Latin) and called the Confraternity New Testament (some of the Old Testament was also revised)

The Confraternity project was stopped when Pope Pius XII declared in the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) that the Bible would be translated from the original tongues of Hebrew and Greek and no longer from the Latin.

The Confraternity team then began a fresh translation from the Hebrew/Greek manuscripts calling it the New American Bible

In the meantime, the Jerusalem Bible and the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, both appeared in 1966.

The New American Bible was finished in 1970.

 

[Jason_1977]

Sweet, this is all awesome information, thank you so much. SO, this is the oldest ENGLISH version… So I guess my question would be, are there any english translations of any versions that predate the DRV? back to the beginning? I’m trying to find the root. I mean, the clan of all these bibles must have 1 common ancestor, right?

 

[NHInsider]

Sweet, this is all awesome information, thank you so much. SO, this is the oldest ENGLISH version… So I guess my question would be, are there any english translations of any versions that predate the DRV? back to the beginning? I’m trying to find the root. I mean, the clan of all these bibles must have 1 common ancestor, right?

Well, yes and no.

The oldest translation into English is Bede’s in the 700s. No copies are extant as far as I know - and eighth century English is so different from our English that you’d need a translation anyway . . . but that would be the oldest English version. King Alfred is also supposed to have done one, that would be in the ninth century.

John Wycliff and his associates did an English translation from the Latin in the 1300’s. Then there were a series of translations around the time of the Protestant split, including the D-R.

But the “common ancestor” is either the Vulgate (up to the D-R) or the assorted Hebrew/Greek “ancient manuscripts” that became the basis of the translations in the 17th-20th centuries. (There are NO extant “original manuscripts.”) Alfred didn’t translate Bede, nor did Wycliff - they all translated from the Vulgate.

HTH

 

[Omyo12]

Sweet, this is all awesome information, thank you so much. SO, this is the oldest ENGLISH version… So I guess my question would be, are there any english translations of any versions that predate the DRV? back to the beginning? I’m trying to find the root. I mean, the clan of all these bibles must have 1 common ancestor, right?

Kinda, but not really…

The first major English Bible was Wycliffe’s Bible. It was translated from the Latin and appeared in 1395

However, the major one came in 1525: Tyndale’s New Testament. This was the first major Bible translated from the Greek. His translation of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy from the Hebrew was published in 1530.

In 1535, Tyndale’s NT was revised and the OT was finished by Myles Coverdale and called the Coverdale Bible

In 1537, a friend of Tyndale also did a revision and produced the Matthew Bible

In 1538, the Church of English rejected the Coverdale and Matthew Bibles, so Sir Thomas Cromwell issued a revision of the Coverdale/Matthew Bibles and called it the Great Bible

In 1568, the Church of English again decided to revise the Great Bible and produced the Bishop’s Bible (it was substantially revised in 1572)

In 1599, Calvinists produced the Geneva Bible which was a revision of Matthew’s Bible.
*
In 1609, the Catholic Church produced the Douay-Rheims so English speaking Catholics had a Bible to call their own. It was translated from the Latin.*

In 1611, the Church of England revised the Bishop’s Bible and produced the Authorized Version (aka the King James Version)

Then in 1752, the Catholic Church produced Bishop Challoner’s revision of the Douay-Rheims. The style was inspired by the Authorized Version.

In 1881, the Authorized Version was revised, this time by a group of independent scholars, and called the Revised Version.
It was revised by British and American scholars. However, suggestions by the American scholars would only be incorporated into the text if 2/3rds of the British scholars approved (the rest would be in the appendix). The Americans would be allowed to publish an American version in 20 years.

In 1901, the Americans published the American Standard Version which was the RV with the American suggestions in the text.

In 1952, the American Standard Version was revised by the International Council of Religious Education (later called the National Council of Churches) and produced the Revised Standard Version however, it was seen as a liberal translation. (It was slightly revised in 1966 and again in 1971)

In 1965, the American Standard Version was revised by a very conservative group of scholars called the Lockman Foundation and published the Amplified Bible. (it was revised in 1987)

In 1971, the Lockman Foundation made another, more literal revision of the American Standard Version and called it the New American Standard Bible. (it was revised in 1995)

In 1982, Thomas Nelson published a direct revision of the Authorized Version called the New King James Version.

In 1989, the National Council of Churches revised the Revised Standard Version and produced the New Revised Standard Version.

Finally in 2001, Crossway Bibles did not like the liberal NRSV, so they revised the RSV and published the English Standard Version. (it was revised in 2007)

This is the basic pedigree of the Tyndale tradition for Protestant Bibles.
There are many more Bibles I left out such as Webster’s Bible, Darby’s Bible and Young’s Literal Translation in the 19th century (all independent revisions of the KJV)

Another notable one is the New International Version which is a fresh translation however inspired in wording by the KJV.

The Catholic New American Bible is also at times inspired by the KJV tradition in regards to wording style.

One thing to keep in mind, while these are revisions of revisions and some texts inspire others, the Textual Basis may differ very much.

The difference between Tyndale’s New Testament and the English Standard Version is HUGE!!

Its more important to look at the Hebrew/Greek text a Bible is based on than which other Bible its a revision of or is inspired by…

 

[NHInsider]

But the “common ancestor” is either the Vulgate (up to the D-R) or the assorted Hebrew/Greek “ancient manuscripts” that became the basis of the translations in the 17th-20th centuries. (There are NO extant “original manuscripts.”) Alfred didn’t translate Bede, nor did Wycliff - they all translated from the Vulgate.

And the frequently missed fact here is that ALL literate Europeans read Latin pretty much up to the 18th century. If you went to school at all (and not very many did) you learned Latin. So the translations into vernacular were for evangelization/education of the masses, who would still need to HEAR the Scripture because they would never be able to read it for themselves in any language.

Widespread literacy FOLLOWs the printing press, it doesn’t precede it. And it’s still a couple of hundred years before reading Latin became a skill reserved for the elite.

 

[Jason_1977]

Kinda, but not really…

The first major English Bible was Wycliffe’s Bible. It was translated from the Latin and appeared in 1395

However, the major one came in 1525: Tyndale’s New Testament. This was the first major Bible translated from the Greek. His translation of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy from the Hebrew was published in 1530.

In 1535, Tyndale’s NT was revised and the OT was finished by Myles Coverdale and called the Coverdale Bible

In 1537, a friend of Tyndale also did a revision and produced the Matthew Bible

In 1538, the Church of English rejected the Coverdale and Matthew Bibles, so Sir Thomas Cromwell issued a revision of the Coverdale/Matthew Bibles and called it the Great Bible

In 1568, the Church of English again decided to revise the Great Bible and produced the Bishop’s Bible (it was substantially revised in 1572)

In 1599, Calvinists produced the Geneva Bible which was a revision of Matthew’s Bible.
*
In 1609, the Catholic Church produced the Douay-Rheims* so English speaking Catholics had a Bible to call their own. It was translated from the Latin.

In 1611, the Church of England revised the Bishop’s Bible and produced the Authorized Version (aka the King James Version)

Then in 1752, the Catholic Church produced Bishop Challoner’s revision of the Douay-Rheims. The style was inspired by the Authorized Version.

In 1881, the Authorized Version was revised, this time by a group of independent scholars, and called the Revised Version.
It was revised by British and American scholars. However, suggestions by the American scholars would only be incorporated into the text if 2/3rds of the British scholars approved (the rest would be in the appendix). The Americans would be allowed to publish an American version in 20 years.

In 1901, the Americans published the American Standard Version which was the RV with the American suggestions in the text.

In 1952, the American Standard Version was revised by the International Council of Religious Education (later called the National Council of Churches) and produced the Revised Standard Version however, it was seen as a liberal translation. (It was slightly revised in 1966 and again in 1971)

In 1965, the American Standard Version was revised by a very conservative group of scholars called the Lockman Foundation and published the Amplified Bible. (it was revised in 1987)

In 1971, the Lockman Foundation made another, more literal revision of the American Standard Version and called it the New American Standard Bible. (it was revised in 1995)

In 1982, Thomas Nelson published a direct revision of the Authorized Version called the New King James Version.

In 1989, the National Council of Churches revised the Revised Standard Version and produced the New Revised Standard Version.

Finally in 2001, Crossway Bibles did not like the liberal NRSV, so they revised the RSV and published the English Standard Version. (it was revised in 2007)

This is the basic pedigree of the Tyndale tradition for Protestant Bibles.
There are many more Bibles I left out such as Webster’s Bible, Darby’s Bible and Young’s Literal Translation in the 19th century (all independent revisions of the KJV)

Another notable one is the New International Version which is a fresh translation however inspired in wording by the KJV.

The Catholic New American Bible is also at times inspired by the KJV tradition in regards to wording style.

One thing to keep in mind, while these are revisions of revisions and some texts inspire others, the Textual Basis may differ very much.

The difference between Tyndale’s New Testament and the English Standard Version is HUGE!!

Its more important to look at the Hebrew/Greek text a Bible is based on than which other Bible its a revision of or is inspired by…

so in your estimation, which one is the best one to have that’s from further back in time without losing anything in translation or evolution of language, etc.?

Wycliffes?

 

[Omyo12]

so in your estimation, which one is the best one to have that’s from further back in time without losing anything in translation or evolution of language, etc.?

Wycliffes?

I’d suggest the Douay-Rheims Challoner’s Revision

The oldest I’d recommend is the original Douay-Rheims of 1609 but it’ll cost you around $200 to get a printed copy. If you have the Amazon Kindle or don’t mind reading books on the computer screen, you can get it on CD for $20

churchlatin.com/DouayRheims.aspx

You could also get the 1611 King James Version (since it contains the deuterocanonal books)

or New Cambridge Paragraph Bible which also has the Deuterocanon.

I do not suggest these older Bibles since the manuscripts they use are outdated by today’s standards.

However, if you prefer a more traditional approach to the Bible, I’d definitely recommend the Douay Rheims.

Also, the thing about Wycliffe’s Bible is this:

John 1
1 In the bigynnyng was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the bigynnyng at God.
3 Alle thingis weren maad bi hym, and withouten hym was maad no thing, that thing that was maad.
4 In hym was lijf, and the lijf was the liyt of men; and the liyt schyneth in derknessis,
5 and derknessis comprehendiden not it.

 

[NHInsider]

I wonder why you want to go “further back” in English? Unless you’re already studying Middle English or Anglo-Saxon there isn’t really much point. If you’re going to invest the time it would take to be able to read those you’d be better off learning to read Latin.

 

[InnocentSmith]

The oldest I’d recommend is the original Douay-Rheims of 1609 but it’ll cost you around $200 to get a printed copy. If you have the Amazon Kindle or don’t mind reading books on the computer screen, you can get it on CD for $20

If one does not have the money to buy it on CD, the New Testament is also available for free on Google Books (I do not know if the Old Testament is or not).

Rheims New Testament

 

[NHInsider]

The oldest I’d recommend is the original Douay-Rheims of 1609 but it’ll cost you around $200 to get a printed copy. If you have the Amazon Kindle or don’t mind reading books on the computer screen, you can get it on CD for $20

If one does not have the money to buy it on CD, the New Testament is also available for free on Google Books (I do not know if the Old Testament is or not).

Rheims New Testament

The Rheims is the NT. The Douay is the OT.

 

[Omyo12]

so in your estimation, which one is the best one to have that’s from further back in time without losing anything in translation or evolution of language, etc.?

Wycliffes?

Here’s a Catholic pedigree of the Bible

I’ll spare the history of the Hebrew Bible since its complicated and somewhat controversial.

When the Christian faith took off, the majority of Christians spoke Greek. The Old Testament they read was the Greek Septuagint (LXX) along with the Greek New Testament.

— The original manuscripts are now lost —
However, there are critical editions in an attempt to reconstruct them:
Rahlfs-Hanhart Septuaginta
Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece

Individual Manuscripts to consider:
**Codex Sinaiticus **dated as early as 330 AD
Codex Vaticanus dated as early as 325 AD

For the Christians in Rome who spoke Latin, there were some Latin Bibles (called now: “Old Latin”) but the texts were seen as corrupted. In 382, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to make a new translation of the Bible for the Latin speaking Christians of the west (the eastern Christians spoke Greek).
This Bible became known as the Latin Vulgate

— These original manuscripts are now lost —
However, there is a critical edition in an attempt to reconstruct them:
Weber-Gyrson Biblia Sacra Vulgata

Manuscript to consider:
Codex Amiatinus commissioned in 692 AD

At the Council of Trent (1545-1563), in response to the Reformation, the canon was made official and the Latin Vulgate was declared authoritative. Then in 1590 AD, Pope Sixtus V sponsored a new edition of the Vulgate called the Sistine Vulgate. The project was rushed and contains many errors. So Pope Clementine VIII ordered a new edition and it was published in 1592.
This is called the Clementine Vulgate

In 1609, responding to the Reformation in England, the Catholic Church produced the first official English Catholic Bible called the Douay-Rheims translated from the Clementine Vulgate.

In 1752, the Douay-Rheims was heavily revised by Bishop Challoner to make it more readable. Some of the wording was inspired by the popular King James Version.

In 1936, Ronald Knox was requested to make a new translation of the Latin Vulgate known as the Knox Translation of the Vulgate.

In 1941, a revision to the Rheims New Testament was completed and called the Confraternity Bible. Also, many of the Douay Old Testament books were revised however the project was canceled in 1943 when Pope Pius XII declared in his encyclical letter Divino Afflante Spiritu that Bibles would be translated from the original tongues of Hebrew/Greek

The Confraternity team then began to translate the New American Bible from the Hebrew/Greek, the first of five volumes appeared in 1951

In 1955, the Knox Translation was finished. Unfortunately it was never popular because it was not translated from the Hebrew/Greek.

In 1966, the English version of the French “La Bible de Jérusalem (1961)” was published. This was called the Jerusalem Bible

That same year, the Revised Standard Version along with the RSV Apocrypha was revised for Catholics and published as the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition

In 1970, the New American Bible was complete

In 1971, the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition was revised

In 1979, the Catholic Church published a revision to the Clementine Vulgate called the Nova Vulgata

In 1985, the Jerusalem Bible was revised and published under its new name: the New Jerusalem Bible

In 1986, a second edition of the Nova Vulgata was published

That same year, the New American Bible New Testament was revised

In 1991, the New Revised Standard Version along with the NRSV Apocrypha was published with the books rearranged in the Catholic order and called the New Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition

That same year, the New American Bible Psalter was revised

In 2004, the **New Catholic Version of the Psalms **was published

In 2006, the 1966 Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition was revised and had the archaic language removed. It was called the Revised Standard Version- Second Catholic Edition

In the works:

revised NAB Old Testament set to be released in 2010
revised NJB currently called the Bible in its Traditions set to be released around 2016

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Omyo12:

In 1609, responding to the Reformation in England, the Catholic Church produced the first official English Catholic Bible called the Douay-Rheims translated from the Clementine Vulgate.

Not true. The Original Douay Rheims: 1582-1609 was translated long before the Clementine Vulgate was published. The Challoner revision, did however make use of the Clementine revision.

Although the Douay Old Testament did not appear until 1609, it was translated decades earlier, but the Rhemists lacked the funds to have it printed. Gregory Martin died in 1582, probably from the excess of work he did on the translation in the preceding decade.

It has been a source of conjecture and wonder as to which Vulgate the Rhemists (primarily Gregory Martin) did use, as it was an extremely good edition, and is in virtually perfect agreement with the later Clementine edition of the Vulgate.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Some other interesting Vulgate translations that were omitted from Omyo12’s list:

Dr. Cornelius Nary, a Catholic priest of Ireland translated the Vulgate NT in 1718. A English translation done in the time of Alexander Pope and Jonathan Swift, the “Augustan Age” of English Literature.

Dr. Witham (the rector of the Douay College) published a 2 volume translation of the Vulgate NT in 1730. The Notes from this edition were memorialized in the many later editions of the Haydock Bible.

In 1849 Dr. Kenrick, Archbishop of Baltimore, began translating the Vulgate N.T. and completed the whole Bible by the 1860’s. It was while he was making this translation that John Henry Newman was approached by Cardinal Wiseman to re-translate the Vulgate. When Kenrick got wind of this, there was such a stir made, that the project for Newman translating the Bible was dropped. One can certainly wonder at how differently English Catholic history might have unfolded had Kenrick not prevented Newman from translating the Bible anew. We also can’t help but notice how utterly forgotten Kenrick’s translation is.

 

[Omyo12]

Some other interesting Vulgate translations that were omitted from Omyo12’s list:

Dr. Cornelius Nary, a Catholic priest of Ireland translated the Vulgate NT in 1718. A English translation done in the time of Alexander Pope and Jonathan Swift, the “Augustan Age” of English Literature.

Dr. Witham (the rector of the Douay College) published a 2 volume translation of the Vulgate NT in 1730. The Notes from this edition were memorialized in the many later editions of the Haydock Bible.

In 1849 Dr. Kenrick, Archbishop of Baltimore, began translating the Vulgate N.T. and completed the whole Bible by the 1860’s. It was while he was making this translation that John Henry Newman was approached by Cardinal Wiseman to re-translate the Vulgate. When Kenrick got wind of this, there was such a stir made, that the project for Newman translating the Bible was dropped. One can certainly wonder at how differently English Catholic history might have unfolded had Kenrick not prevented Newman from translating the Bible anew. We also can’t help but notice how utterly forgotten Kenrick’s translation is.

Thanks for the info on the Douay-Rheims source text. I should have known taken the Rheims was published in 1582 and the Clementine in 1592

Also, I refrained from mentioning the more obscure translations and various editions of the DR and Clementine Vulgate cause I tried sticking to the more popular ones people would recognize. I mentioned Knox cause I’ve seen a lot of people here on CA bring it up.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Thanks for the info on the Douay-Rheims source text. I should have known taken the Rheims was published in 1582 and the Clementine in 1592

Also, I refrained from mentioning the more obscure translations and various editions of the DR and Clementine Vulgate cause I tried sticking to the more popular ones people would recognize. I mentioned Knox cause I’ve seen a lot of people here on CA bring it up.

lol, It’s because you mentioned Knox, that I thought these other Vulgate translations would also be interesting. But you’re right, they’re little known, and very hard to come by.