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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Your argument is with the Vulgate not the DR. The DR is a translation from Jerome’s Vulgate. The NAB and RSV-CE are not from the Vulgate.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
and where do you see the D-R theologically incorrect??
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baddog
Guest
I’m a convert so I’m not that all familiar with DR. However, I am familiar with the King James Version.My opinion is that any well read, literate person can understand the DR with ease. That means someone that can read and understand Shakespeare, Milton, Dryden, Pope, Goldsmith, Thoreau, Whitman, Hawthorne, Poe, and any of our older literary masters, would have no trouble whatsoever with Challoner’s version of the DR, and should even be able to read the original DR with little difficulty.
Are these authors even read in the schools anymore? That is my question.
Many of the words used in the KJV have changed meaning over the years. Most laymen would not be familiar with the changes. For instance, “conversation” in the KJV sometimes means “conduct” in modern English. I have to wonder how many “literate” people would be aware of it.
Does the DR have similar problems?
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dkushner
Guest
baddog
Here’s the Douay-Rheims Challoner Revision online, so you can compare for yourself. I’d be curious to hear your comments.
Douay-Rheims Bible
David
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patrick457
Guest
Well, the original 1582-1609 translation was a bit hard to understand (even people back then had a hard time comprehending some words) because parts of it are too Latinate.
Here’s a sample from the 1582 Rheims NT, compared with the 1611 KJV and the Douay-Rheims Challoner (Romans 5:12-21):
1582 Rheims NT (spelling and punctuation as in original)
+ Therfore, as by one man sinne entered into this vvorld, and by sinne death: and so vnto al men death did passe, in vvhich al sinned. + For euen vnto the Lavv sinne vvas in the world: but sinne was not imputed, when the law was not. + But death reigned from Adam vnto Moyses, euen on them also that sinned not after the similitude of the preuarication of Adam, vvho is a figure of him to come. + But not as the offence, so also the gift, for if by the offence of one, many died: much more by the grace of God and the gift, in the grace of one man IESVS Christ, hath abounded vpon many. + And not as by one sinne, so also the gift. for judgmēt in deede is of one, to condemnatiō: but grace is of many offences, to iustificatiō. + For if in the offēce of one, death reigned by one: much more they that receiue the aboundance of grace and of donation & of iustice, shal reigne in life by one, IESVS Christ. + Therfore as by the offence of one, vnto al men to condemnation: so also by the iustice of one, vnto al men to iustification of life. + For as by the disobedience of one man, many vvere made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shal be made iust. + But the Law entred in, that sinne might abound. And vvhere sinne abounded, grace did more abound. + that as sinne reigned to death: so also grace may reigne by iustice to life euerlasting, through IESVS Christ our Lord.
1611 KJV (spelling as in the original)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sinne entred into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed vpon all men, for that all haue sinned.
13 For vntill the Law sinne was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no Law.
14 Neuertheles, death reigned from Adam to Moses, euen ouer them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift: for if through the offence of one, many bee dead: much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man Iesus Christ, hath abounded vnto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the iudgement was by one to condemnation: but the free gift is of many offences vnto iustification.
17 For if by one mans offence, death raigned by one, much more they which receiue abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousnes, shall reigne in life by one, Iesus Christ.
18 Therfore as by the offence of one, iudgment came vpon all men to condemnation: euen so by the righteousnes of one, the free gift came vpon all men vnto iustification of life.
19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners: so by the obedience of one, shall many bee made righteous.
20 Moreouer, the Lawe entred, that the offence might abound: but where sinne abounded, grace did much more abound.
21 That as sinne hath reigned vnto death; euen so might grace reigne thorow righteousnes vnto eternall life, by Iesus Christ our Lord.
Douay-Rheims Challoner (1749-1752)
12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin was not imputed, when the law was not.
14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation: but grace is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift and of justice shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation: so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.
20 Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.
21 That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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centurionguard
Guest
Personally for what it is worth I love the DOUAY RHEIMS Bible. It’s my first choice when reading any Catholic Bible. Most of the time I read from the TAN BOOKS Revised edition published by Bishop Richard Challoner 1749-1752 AD along with The Jerome Biblical Commentary published in 1968. I have heard of people hear in this thread speak about the Haydock version which I have never seen before. I do own a twenty pound 153 year old Douay Rheims Challoner Latin Vulgate Bible that a priest from the Grand Seminaire in Montreal passed alone to me as a gift. It was concurrently published in New York, Boston, and Montreal in 1856 AD. I do keep a few other modern catholic versions like the New American, and New Jerusalem on hand in case I get stuck reading a passage from the Douay Rheims which is rare. How many here have heard of the NAVARRE Catholic Bible published by the Faculty of Theology of Navarre University in Madrid and Barcelona Spain. There are a few different catholic versions. The Navarre version I own has the Original Greek, Latin Vulgate, and English Douay Rheims Translations wrapped up in a collection of 14 volumes for the New Testament. It also includes a biblical commentary. Great resource for biblical studies.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
You have me all interested! It does not mention Geo. Leo Haydock? How does the Title page read?
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centurionguard
Guest
The Title Page reads as follows:You have me all interested! It does not mention Geo. Leo Haydock? How does the Title page read?
THE HOLY BIBLE translated from the LATIN VULGATE with the approbation of The Most Rev. John Hughes, D.D. Archbishop of New York.
Published by D. and J. Sadlier & Co. 1856 AD
164 William Street, New York, New York U.S.A.
128 Federal Street Boston, Massachusetts U.S.A.
129 Notre Dame Street Montreal, Quebec Canada
This Catholic Bible also includes the entire documents from the Council of Trent translated in English
If I’m not mistaken the Bible reads that the reigning Pope was Pius the Sixth
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
I found this entry here:
1856 Bible (793-228 + Ward’s Errata) : Douay Version, Challoner-MacMahon Revision; X Hughes; D. & J. SADLIER & CO., New York, Boston, & Montreal. HILLS 1609; POPE 730-2; & O’CALLAGHAN 345. 4to.
It’s about half way down the page. It says it’s a quarto with 793 pages, + 228 pages, + Ward’s Errata. That could be a 20lb. Bible! Does yours have Ward’s Errata? If so, that is very good! Does it have any notes? If so I wonder whose??
If that doesn’t look right, how about the entry right below this one?
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tobinatorstark
Guest
Interesting detail about the Douay-Rheims. I just received the Haydock Bible Commentary that I bought for my sister and brother-in-law’s wedding. It too has the decree of the 4th session of the Council of Trent. And a message from Pope Pius XI
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centurionguard
Guest
Your correct ! This 1856 Bible does have the ERRATAI found this entry here:
1856 Bible (793-228 + Ward’s Errata) : Douay Version, Challoner-MacMahon Revision; X Hughes; D. & J. SADLIER & CO., New York, Boston, & Montreal. HILLS 1609; POPE 730-2; & O’CALLAGHAN 345. 4to.
It’s about half way down the page. It says it’s a quarto with 793 pages, + 228 pages, + Ward’s Errata. That could be a 20lb. Bible! Does yours have Ward’s Errata? If so, that is very good! Does it have any notes? If so I wonder whose??
If that doesn’t look right, how about the entry right below this one?
The ERRATA title page reads as follows:
The Errata of the Protestant Bible or the Truth of the English Translations Examined
(“In a Treatise”) Showing Some Of The Errors That Are To Be found In The English Translations Of The Sacred Scriptures Used By Protestants, Against Such Points Of Religious Doctrine As Are The Subject Of Controversy Between Them And The members Of The Catholic Church (“In Which Also”) From Their Mistranslating The Twenty-Third Verse Of The Fourteenth Chapter Of Acts Of The Apostles, The Consecration Of Dr. Matthew Parker The First Protestant Archbishop Of Canterbury, Is Occasionally Considered. By Thomas Ward, ESQ
This New ERRATA Edition Carefully Revised And Corrected
In Which, Are Added
The Celebrated Preface Of The Rev. Doctor Lingard ("In Answer To Ryan’s “Analysis”)
AND
A Vindication By The Right Rev. Doctor Milner
In Answer To Grier’s “Reply”
Sub-note: For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book:
If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues wriiten in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of this book of prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of The Holy City, and from these things which…Revelations xxii. 18, 19
1856 AD
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
That’s a really great Bible Centurionguard! Thanks for checking. 
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Epistemes
Guest
I like old stuff.
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centurionguard
Guest
I too love old stuff, particularly anything of antiquity that bespeaks of the Catholic ChurchI like old stuff.
I’ve always had a dream of visiting the Vatican Archives and locking myself inside for a few months just reading through old Greek, Latin, and perhaps Aramaic documents of the Church from the past. I realize that most of the Catholic Churches early documents even from the apostles were transcribed originally in Greek. Given the many dialects during the time of Jesus’ I would probably guess some transcription documents might have originally been written in Aramaic form. A fair number of early Church documents are placed in vacuum sealed chambers in the Vatican Archives to preserve their antiquity.
Another old book I was lucky to find amongst a pile of tattered religious books destined for the garbage can is a 767 page hard cover Catholic book published in 1879 entitled
(“The Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary”) with the history devoted to her.
The Title page reads as follows:
Devotion To The Blessed Virgin Mary Completed By Traditions Of The East
From The Writings of The Holy Fathers Of The Church
By THE ABBE ORSINI
A Historical Calender Of Feasts Of The Blessed Virgin Mary
with Meditations and Dedications Of The Churches In Honor Of Our Blessed Lady; and
The Litany of The Most Blessed Virgin, Accompanied With Meditations.
By The ABBE Edward Barthe
Also Devotion To The Blessed Virgin In North America
By The Rev. Xavior Donald MacLeod…Cincinnati, Ohio
Also added An Account of Apparitions and Miracles At Our Lady of Knock
Catholic Church, Ireland. Published On The 21st of August, 1879
Thirteenth Edition
New York City
Peter F. Collier, Catholic Publisher…
What is particularly unique about this book is the lengthy annotations
given by the Holy Fathers of the Catholic Church…many of whom are Saints today.
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loiszs
Guest
Hi, I am new to this forum. I ever read from somewhere that the Haydock Bible and Challoner version is not really the true and original douay rheims Bible that was written in the 15th - 16th century. Is that true?
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Yes. Challoner revised the DR in 1749-1752 and Haydock’s Bible uses McMahon’s further revisions of Challoner. However, for all intents and purposes, they read very closely to the original DR, just more modern.
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plefe
Guest
Please help me then, old faithful DR scholors. Do all versions of DR omit Revelations, or just the 2008 Baronius Press 4th impression. Was Revelations a separate book like when the DR was first written i.e. Old Testament and then the New Testament.
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CalCatholic
Guest
I’m not a D-R scholar, but as far as I know they should all include the Book of Revelation but under the name of ‘The Apocalypse of Saint John the Apostle’ or something similar.
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TristanCross
Guest
Try a RSV Ignatius Bible. They’re great!
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Omyo12
Guest
Have you considered the Catholic Public Domain Version by Ronald Conte?
It’s basically a new translation of the Clementine Vulgate in modern English with the Douay-Rheims as a guide.
It’s also available in print but it’s in 5 volumes…
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