douay rheims only

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Excuse my ignorance.

I “rescued” a bible from a book sale a while back. The copyright is 1949,51,52 and the title page says the Douay Version (Old Testament) and A Revision of the Challoner-Reims Version (New Testament). I take it that means it’s a Douay-Reims bible? I’m not sure about the rest of it (i.e. original, etc.).
 
Going back to this original statement, I don’t think you quite appreciate the absurdity of what you’re saying here.

Just because the totality of Catholic faith and practice is not limited to something, does not mean that the serious Catholic should dispense with it as something trivial OR deal with it lightly.

Moreover, speaking only in terms of the structure of belief, while the Bible is not ‘mutually inclusive’ with the Catholic faith, the Bible in its capacity as the revealed Word of God is necessary for everything else in the Catholic faith that lies beyond its two covers.

There are no ‘spark notes’ to the Bible that contains what ‘a Catholic needs to know’–which might not even be OP’s primary concern, despite your rude assumption–, and the closest thing to this, the CCC, makes explicit reference to biblical sources.

So, it follows that it should concern the serious Catholic that he/she is reading a translation that (1) has the proper ecclesiastical endorsements and oversight, and (2) is clear, accessible, and verbally potent.

That–in a word–is why OP ‘might’ care, among other reasons.
You really do take yourself very seriously. It’s so odd that if this is such a serious matter, as you would have us believe it is, that the Catholic Church does not guide anyone on this matter. Anyone who attends Mass regularly that is.
 
You really do take yourself very seriously. It’s so odd that if this is such a serious matter, as you would have us believe it is, that the Catholic Church does not guide anyone on this matter. Anyone who attends Mass regularly that is.
Myself? Eh.

This subject, and the Science of Being Right? Most definitely.

As to what the RCC guides us to do (‘especially Mass-goers’): yeah, only HALF the Mass is devoted specifically to this topic (‘Liturgy of the Word’), with the priest’s homily expanding upon the 3+ selections using the years of post-graduate education he has spent studying the Bible; and then, of course, he goes on to offer the sacrifice of the Mass (‘Liturgy of the Eucharist’) which is ‘only’ entirely based on what we read about in the Bible. And then–finally–we leave, but only after the priest tells the congregation when the Bible study, Patristics study, and Biblical Greek classes are for this week.

So, one gets the impression how very much the Bible might mean to a serious Catholic. It is only logical that we will take great care in selecting which Bible we use.
 
Excuse my ignorance.

I “rescued” a bible from a book sale a while back. The copyright is 1949,51,52 and the title page says the Douay Version (Old Testament) and A Revision of the Challoner-Reims Version (New Testament). I take it that means it’s a Douay-Reims bible? I’m not sure about the rest of it (i.e. original, etc.).
As I haven’t seen anything of it (can you please give us some samples? :)), it’s really hard to say, but I think it likely that the Bible you have is a Douai-Rheims Challoner, as that’s basically the version that was, and is commonly printed (that when some people say ‘Douai-Rheims’, they usually mean this version).

You don’t really see the ‘actual’ Rheims NT or Douai OT having widespread currency nowadays, and even, say, fifty to sixty years ago: the original DR achieved little currency among English-speaking Catholics until it was substantially revised by Bishop Richard Challoner between 1749 and 1752. The original Douai OT (1609-10) was reprinted only once in the course of a century; the Rheims NT (1582) fared a little better, having been reprinted a few times in the century following.

I think that further reading on this may solve our little mystery concerning the little disclaimer that says A Revision of the Challoner-Reims Version.

Bishop Challoner originally published the New Testament in 1749, followed by an edition of the whole Bible the next year, which made some 200 further changes to the New Testament. Then, in 1752, he made a further revision to the text of the NT: the final product differed in about 2,000 readings from the 1750 edition. The 1752 text remained the base text for further editions of the bible in Challoner’s lifetime. In all three editions the very extensive notes and commentary of the 1582/1610 original (which appeared at the margins and at the end of every chapter: here’s the Annotations for Matthew 1 in the 1582 Rheims NT) were drastically reduced, resulting in a compact one-volume edition of the Bible, which contributed greatly to its popularity. According to wikipedia:

Subsequent editions of the Challoner revision, of which there have been very many, reproduce his Old Testament of 1750 with very few changes. Challoner’s 1752 New Testament was, however, extensively further revised by Bernard MacMahon in a series of Dublin editions from 1783 to 1810, for the most part adjusting the text away from agreement with that of the King James Bible; and these various Dublin versions are the source of many, but not all, Challoner versions printed in the United States in the 19th Century. Editions of the Challoner Bible printed in England sometimes follow one or another of the revised Dublin New Testament texts; but more often tend to follow Challoner’s earlier editions of 1749 and 1750 (as do most 20th century printings, and on-line versions of the Douay–Rheims bible circulating on the internet).

This Challoner version, officially approved by the Church, remained the Bible of the majority of English-speaking Catholics well into the 20th century. It was first published in America in 1790 by Mathew Carey of Philadelphia. Several American editions followed in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, prominently among them an edition published in 1899 by the John Murphy Company of Baltimore. In 1941 the New Testament and Psalms of the Douay–Rheims Bible were again heavily revised to produce the New Testament (and in some editions, the Psalms) of the Confraternity Bible, however so extensive were these changes, that it was no longer identified as the Douay–Rheims.
 
The Douay is a translation of the Latin Vulgate. There are no pronouns in Latin, so when translating to English, the translator makes up whatever he thinks fits the context. However, while it works either way, I think “he” is more theologically accurate.

The Vulgate is a translation of Hebrew. FWIW, no pronouns in Hebrew either.
As nobody has yet replied to this:

The Latin says here: “Ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.” Ipsa is a feminine pronoun, literally translating to ‘herself’ (the masculine form is ipse; the neuter is ipsum). Eius is rather ambiguous: it is the genitive singular (all genders) of the demonstrative adjective whose nominative singular form is is (masc.)

The Hebrew runs thus: “Hû’ yəšûfəḵā rō’š, wə’atâ təšûfennû 'āqēḇ.” Literally, it goes something like: “Hû’ he-shall-bruise (šûf)-you [a] head, and you ('atâ; second person singular masculine) you-shall-bruise (šûf)-him [a] heel.” Hû’ is the third person singular, independent nominative pronoun. It often means ‘he’ (there was that old joke about how in Hebrew, is who*hu’**hi’*mi :D), but apparently there are a few places in the OT where it can also mean ‘she’ - especially in the Torah.

For the most part Hebrew does not (as does English) require the use of an independent pronoun to precede a finite verb when the noun-subject is omitted. When it does appear it is usually for emphasis or in another type of construction.
One such construction is a nominal sentence or clause, that is a sentence which has no finite verb, but a noun or an adjective (including the participle as a verbal adjective) acts as the predicate. (The English must include a form of the verb “to be.” In this construction the pronoun is necessary if the noun subject is omitted: with a noun predicate, “it (is) my master” (Gen 24:65), with an adjective predicate, “he was faint” (Gen 25:29), with a participle predicate, “he (was) sitting at the door of the tent” (Gen 18:1).
When such a nominal sentence or phrase is connected with preceding material it may be translated as if the pronoun were a relative: “Bela, which is Zoar,” (Gen 14:2), “Esau, who is Edom” (Gen 36:1). Occasionally the pronoun follows the predicate: thus, “unclean it,” to be translated “it is unclean” (Num 19:15), “twenty gerahs it,” “it is twenty gerahs” (Num 18:16). This is especially true in dependent clauses such as those introduced by ki, meaning “that,” “for,” “because”: “for unclean he,” that is “he is unclean” (Lev 13:11), “because many they (were)” (Num 22:3). This is also common with 'asher, meaning “which,” “that”: “from the beast which not clean it (is)” (Gen 7:2), “which not from your seed he (is)” (Gen 17:12), often called the resumptive pronoun.
Sometimes in a nominal sentence the pronoun stands between the subject and the nominal predicate where the English would have a form of the verb “to be”: “And Joseph, he (was) the ruler” (Gen 42:6), “you (are) he, God” (2Sa 7:28). The pronoun, which is redundant in English, is not in this case, a substitute for the verb “to be” but is used to indicate emphasis, ‘atta hu’: It is you that. Also after an interrogative the pronoun may be added for emphasis, “who (is he that) will condemn me?” (Isa 50:9).
The pronoun may be used before a finite verb when a phrase separates the subject from the verb: “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me” (Gen 3:12), and “one that shall come… he shall inherit (from) you” (Gen 15:4). Unless there is reason for emphasis this use is redundant in English and not generally translated.
The pronoun is also used to tie in an additional subject added after the predicate, “And Joseph returned to Egypt, he, and his brethren, and all” (Gen 50:14).
With the article, the pronoun may function as the demonstrative adjective, “that” (corresponding to zeh “this”), “that place” (Gen 21:31), “in that day” meaning “the same day” (Gen 15:18).
hu’ may be used simply for emphasis: 'I know that he can speak" (Exo 4:14), or “the Lord, he (is) God” (Psa 100:3). The emphasis may be expressed in English by “himself,” “the Lord himself will require it” (Jos 22:23). When it is used to reinforce a preceding suffix pronoun, it is difficult to translate in writing, because the English equivalent is to put stress on that pronoun, “what he saith,” that is, what Hushai says in contrast to what Ahithophel has said (literally, “what is in his mouth,” 2Sa 17:5).
The w and y are not merely vowel letters as shown by the Ugaritic pronouns huwa “he” and hiya “she” (hw and hy).
Unexplained is the usage in the Pentateuch and a few other places where hw’ means either “he” (vocalized hu’) or “she” (vocalized with a perpetual qere hi’). In the past this has led some to feel that the original pronoun for both genders was hw’ but Ugaritic denies this conclusion. Apparently the situation is due to some dialect or vagary of a scribal school.
 
“full of grace” is a faithful translation of the Latin gratia plena, but I believe it oversteps the Greek charitoō. And Jerome agreed with me when he translated Eph 1:6, which uses the same word, but Jerome translated this instance of charitoō as “gloriae gratiae” (not “gratia plena”), which the Douay translates “glory of his grace.” In the NAB, the verse reads “that all might praise the glorious favor he has bestowed on us in his beloved.”

I agree that “grace” is a better translation of *charitoō *than “favor,” but I feel “full of grace” goes too far. “Having grace” is better, IMHO.
Ephesians 1:6 has doxēs tēs charitos autou (“the glory of His grace”), that He echaritōsen (=charitoō) on us in the Beloved. St. Jerome’s translation is not too far out (he renders echaritōsen as gratificavit BTW, keeping the root gratiae = charitos).
John 1:14 and Acts 6:8 (I’m also bringing this out just in case) meanwhile has plērēs charitos. This one actually means “full of grace”. Jerome translates it as, plenum gratiae in John, and plenus gratia in Acts.

Now the problem word in Luke is kecharitomenē. I’m not delving into that as there are others who can do it better than I could ever attempt to. 😛
 
As I haven’t seen anything of it (can you please give us some samples?)
Certainly, what kind of samples would you like?
In 1941 the New Testament and Psalms of the Douay–Rheims Bible were again heavily revised to produce the New Testament (and in some editions, the Psalms) of the Confraternity Bible, however so extensive were these changes, that it was no longer identified as the Douay–Rheims.
Now, on the title page, under the NT title, it does, in fact, say “Confraternity Edition”. The Episcopal Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine". The top of the page identifies it and the “New Catholic Version of the Holy Bible, Translated form the Latin Vulgate”. Hope this helps.

And thank you for such an extensive and informative answer. 🙂

Pax†
 
The Douay is a translation of the Latin Vulgate. There are no pronouns in Latin, so when translating to English, the translator makes up whatever he thinks fits the context. However, while it works either way, I think “he” is more theologically accurate.

The Vulgate is a translation of Hebrew. FWIW, no pronouns in Hebrew either.

“full of grace” is a faithful translation of the Latin gratia plena, but I believe it oversteps the Greek charitoō. And Jerome agreed with me when he translated Eph 1:6, which uses the same word, but Jerome translated this instance of charitoō as “gloriae gratiae” (not “gratia plena”), which the Douay translates “glory of his grace.” In the NAB, the verse reads “that all might praise the glorious favor he has bestowed on us in his beloved.”

I agree that “grace” is a better translation of *charitoō *than “favor,” but I feel “full of grace” goes too far. “Having grace” is better, IMHO.
But what you need to understand that by ‘she shall crush thy head’ it is clearly referring to Our Lady. She alone has been given the mission of crushing the serpents head. I mean not only that look at the many statues and paintings of her. What is she stepping on?
 
Certainly, what kind of samples would you like?
Just a few sample passages from the NT would be fine, thanks. 🙂
Now, on the title page, under the NT title, it does, in fact, say “Confraternity Edition”. The Episcopal Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine". The top of the page identifies it and the “New Catholic Version of the Holy Bible, Translated form the Latin Vulgate”. Hope this helps.
And thank you for such an extensive and informative answer. 🙂
Ooh, you have something that’s very interesting there!
 
Just a few sample passages from the NT would be fine, thanks. 🙂

Ooh, you have something that’s very interesting there!
Matthew 3:13-16

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.And John was for hindering him, and said, ‘It is I who ought to be baptized by thee, and dost thou come to me?’ But Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Let it be done so now, for so it becomes us to fulfill all justice.’ Then he permitted him."

Luke 1:40-43
And she entered the house of Zachary and saluted Elizabeth. And it came to pass, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the the babe in her womb leapt. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!’.

Wow, and to think I only paid three bucks for it. 🙂
 
I personally have a quibble with a certain passage in John. None of the English translations of the passage in question is satisfactory. Douay-Rheims, RSV-CE, New Jerusalem, New American, Good News and KJV all have the identical failure of precision in translating the passage. I checked this in a Catholic comparative New Testament. This is what happens when the original Greek uses words for which there are no English counterparts. There is something important to be learned from the text if properly understood, but no one will ever notice the message unless it can be seen. Failing a more exact translation, no one in the English speaking world is likely to find it. Domage.

Reb Levi
 
Just a few sample passages from the NT would be fine, thanks. 🙂

Ooh, you have something that’s very interesting there!
Can you believe I just went to the used book store and found another one only in better condition? The first one I got was published in New York but this one was published in Chicago and is slightly different (clearer art and maps, the title on the title page is in red instead of black) but the copywrites are identical. I only paid $6.00.
 
My litmus test for Catholic translations is 2 Corinthians 2:10 where St. Paul forgives the incestuous Corinthian “In the person of Christ”.

The only Catholic translations I know of that say “person” and not “presence” are the Douay Rheims–the Confraternity New Testament–and the Knox bible.

The only Protestant translation that translates “person” and not “presence” is the KJV.

2 Corinthains 2:10 is scriptural proof positive of St. Paul granting absolution.

The Nova Vulgata–the juridicial text of the Latin rite of the Church translates “in personna Christi.”

The Latin Vulgate can be used in ALL disputations and does not err in terms of DOCTRINE according to the Ecumenical Council of Trent.

“Person” versus “presence” is a doctrinal disputation.

I’m not saying that the Douay Rheims is perfect–it certainly isn’t.

The best bible that I have is one that has the Douay Rheims Challoner Old testament–the Confraternity New Testament–and an English translation of the New Latin Psalms done by the Pontifical Bible Commission and autorized by Pope Pius XII.

That bible isn’t perfect–no trnslation is–but it is Catholic and less inaccurate than any other bible I have ever ran across.

I have never read the Carey Revision to the Douay Rheims New Testasment.

Does anyone know how accurate it is?
 
We know there are a lot of KJV only people and some think it is the only Word of God. Are there any Douay Rheims only people, and do you believe it is the only correct English translation today?
I think it might be hard for a faithful Catholic to believe that the Douay-Rheims is the only legitimate translation when the Vatican’s English website has a link to the New American Bible.
Source: vatican.va/archive/index.htm

-Prophesy
 
Going back to this original statement, I don’t think you quite appreciate the absurdity of what you’re saying here.

Just because the totality of Catholic faith and practice is not limited to something, does not mean that the serious Catholic should dispense with it as something trivial OR deal with it lightly.

Moreover, speaking only in terms of the structure of belief, while the Bible is not ‘mutually inclusive’ with the Catholic faith, the Bible in its capacity as the revealed Word of God is necessary for everything else in the Catholic faith that lies beyond its two covers.

There are no ‘spark notes’ to the Bible that contains what ‘a Catholic needs to know’–which might not even be OP’s primary concern, despite your rude assumption–, and the closest thing to this, the CCC, makes explicit reference to biblical sources.

So, it follows that it should concern the serious Catholic that he/she is reading a translation that (1) has the proper ecclesiastical endorsements and oversight, and (2) is clear, accessible, and verbally potent.

That–in a word–is why OP ‘might’ care, among other reasons.
Silly me, I thought one would drag their butt to Mass to learn about it. How dumb I have been, and how smart you are! I should have been worrying over translations instead.
 
I think it might be hard for a faithful Catholic to believe that the Douay-Rheims is the only legitimate translation when the Vatican’s English website has a link to the New American Bible.
Source: vatican.va/archive/index.htm

-Prophesy
Thanks, I’ll keep this in mind.
I own a Douay Rheims in both English and Spanish,
and an Ignatius Bible RSV CE.
 
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