Douay Rhems, Ignatious, New American

[Phillip_Rolfes]

There is a very insightful article regarding the Vulgate, and hence the D/R translation included in the Haydock-Oakeley Bible which was issued in 1878 until 1910 in London by Virtue & Co. Here is a link to the article “The Latin Vulgate as the Authentic Version of the Church.”

The correct page is 53, or scroll down a little and click on the title of the article in the table of contents. It is MOST edifying with respect to today’s worship of the historical-critical methods, since the article was written at a time when great progress was being made in that field.

Unfortunately, T. G. Law, left the London Oratory, and the Catholic Church for that matter soon after the appearance of this article in the Haydock-Oakeley Bible. It does not detract from the matter however, and the article (or small treatise) is worthy of modern eyes.

The Vulgate is only the official/authentic version of the Bible for the Latin/Roman Church. For Eastern Catholics (who are every bit as Catholic as the Romans) the official/authentic versions would be either the Septuagint, the Peshitto or the Peshitta depending on which Eastern Catholic Church you belong to. As a Maronite, the official Scriptures for my Church would be the Peshitta. If I were a Melkite Byzantine the official Scriptures would be the Greek Septuagint.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Luigi, As I have said to others, your opinion & insight is most appreciated. I do thank you.

My pleasure, sir.

 

[PJM]

episkopous. epi = over, above; skopeo = see; view; direct attention to, take aim at/ skopos=goal,target. Overseer.

kecharitomene: charitoo = grace, favour; participle, perfect, passive vocative. “Favoured one” or “full of grace” are both acceptable and imprecise.

OK, and your point is:shrug:

 

[PJM]

The title of this thread…

Douay Rhems, Ignatius, New American

…should read "Douay Rheims, RSV-CE, New American.

Douay Rheims and New American Bible are translations of the Bible. Ignatius is a for-profit company. Ignatius is not a translation of the Bible.

There are many fine publishers of RSV and RSV-CE Bibles. Ignatius is just one of them.

-Tim-

THANKS, I tried to GOOGLE it with no luck

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[porthos11]

OK, and your point is:shrug:

That you don’t determine the Catholicity or orthodoxy of a translation solely based on the words chosen.

 

[Dirk_Skene]

Just to throw another wrench in the works of your decision-making. The NAB-RE New Testament is what we hear read at Mass in the U.S…if you’re looking for something that has a direct connection to the readings as heard at Mass, I’d go with either the NAB-RE or the New Jerusalem.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. And yes! that was a wrench in the works

 

[mattp0625]

Look up the connection between the Latin Vulgate and the Douay Rheims bible.

Given the time and place the Latin Vulgate came into being, it is the closest version we have to the time and culture of Jesus. Saint Jerome learned the languages in the Middle East before 400 AD. It was THE scripture translation used for 1,200 years.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Just to throw another wrench in the works of your decision-making. The NAB-RE New Testament is what we hear read at Mass in the U.S… This holds true even for many Eastern Catholics (although I believe some Eastern Catholics hear the RSV-CE 2nd Edition at Liturgy). I believe in some other English-speaking countries, an edition of the New Jerusalem Bible is read. The Douey is not normally read liturgically. So if you’re looking for something that has a direct connection to the readings as heard at Mass, I’d go with either the NAB-RE or the New Jerusalem.

That’s not true in the US. The NABRE is not approved for Liturgical use, just reading. There is a non-published version based on the NABRE, which is actually used in the Readings of the Liturgy. The reason we KNOW it is based on the NABRE is some of the horrible pedestrian renderings which make us squirm and wince.

US Catholics cannot buy a Bible that is used in the Liturgy.

If I wanted to rank Bible translations, I would rank the KJV with Apocrypha above the NABRE for many reasons.

 

[PJM]

That you don’t determine the Catholicity or orthodoxy of a translation solely based on the words chosen.

Please expand that thought

Thank you

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

That’s not true in the US. The NABRE is not approved for Liturgical use, just reading. There is a non-published version based on the NABRE, which is actually used in the Readings of the Liturgy. The reason we KNOW it is based on the NABRE is some of the horrible pedestrian renderings which make us squirm and wince.

US Catholics cannot buy a Bible that is used in the Liturgy.

If I wanted to rank Bible translations, I would rank the KJV with Apocrypha above the NABRE for many reasons.

To clarify, I specified the NAB-RE New Testament. If you pull that out at Mass, you’ll find that the Gospel and Epistles match the NAB-RE translation. The Old Testament is a different story.

I’m curious to know what you mean by “pedestrian renderings.” That’s a phrase that I’ve heard thrown around, but have never had clarity on what is meant by it.

 

[porthos11]

Please expand that thought

Thank you

You considered the DR use of the word “bishop” and the phrase “full of grace” as a litmus test of sorts for the Catholicity or faithfulness of the various editions. Other people pick Isaiah 7:14’s “young woman” vs. “virgin”.

I have simply shown that the various renderings are faithful translations of the source languages and are not heterodox at all.

 

[PJM]

You considered the DR use of the word “bishop” and the phrase “full of grace” as a litmus test of sorts for the Catholicity or faithfulness of the various editions. Other people pick Isaiah 7:14’s “young woman” vs. “virgin”.

I have simply shown that the various renderings are faithful translations of the source languages and are not heterodox at all.

Full Definition of HETERODOX
1: contrary to or different from an acknowledged standard, a traditional form, or an established religion : unorthodox, unconventional

2: holding unorthodox opinions or doctrines

So your saying
That BISHOP {Douay} & “YOU” RSV bible means the identically same thing?

OR “FULL of GRACE” {Douay} &” “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” {RSV bible} MEAN the same thing?

You’re kidding right:shrug:

What my friend am I not grasping here?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[porthos11]

Full Definition of HETERODOX
1: contrary to or different from an acknowledged standard, a traditional form, or an established religion : unorthodox, unconventional

2: holding unorthodox opinions or doctrines

So your saying
That BISHOP {Douay} & “YOU” RSV bible means the identically same thing?

The RSV has “made you overseers”. The word in question “overseers” and it is a correct translation.

OR “FULL of GRACE” {Douay} &” “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” {RSV bible} MEAN the same thing?

You’re kidding right:shrug:

What my friend am I not grasping here?

God Bless you,

Patrick

Yes, they both are valid translations of “kecharitomene” to the best English can do. The word is untranslatable precisely so both “full of grace” and “favoured one” are both imprecise. You cannot get the full power of this verse outside of the Greek. And besides, the RSV-CE does have “full of grace” in this passage.

So again, what I’m saying is that “overseers” and “favoured one” are both correct translations of their respective Greek words. One therefore cannot “litmus test” a Bible by those passages.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The RSV has “made you overseers”. The word in question “overseers” and it is a correct translation.

Yes, they both are valid translations of “kecharitomene” to the best English can do. The word is untranslatable precisely so both “full of grace” and “favoured one” are both imprecise. You cannot get the full power of this verse outside of the Greek. And besides, the RSV-CE does have “full of grace” in this passage.

So again, what I’m saying is that “overseers” and “favoured one” are both correct translations of their respective Greek words. One therefore cannot “litmus test” a Bible by those passages.

A “valid” translation is not the same as a good translation.

So, for example “full of grace” is far better than “favored one.” It actually reflects the unusual usage. Aren’t all of God’s saints favored? Aren’t ALL men favored in their baptism?

You may be able to justify your translation from a scholastic viewpoint, but not a spiritual one.

Nevertheless, there are MANY places that the RSV does a superb job, and even surpasses the D/R in clarity and elegance.

For my own part, I will adhere to the D/R as it reflects most faithfully, the Vulgate of St. Jerome. I know there are many that find it too archaic. But there it is.

 

[PJM]

The RSV has “made you overseers”. The word in question “overseers” and it is a correct translation.

Yes, they both are valid translations of “kecharitomene” to the best English can do. The word is untranslatable precisely so both “full of grace” and “favoured one” are both imprecise. You cannot get the full power of this verse outside of the Greek. And besides, the RSV-CE does have “full of grace” in this passage.

So again, what I’m saying is that “overseers” and “favoured one” are both correct translations of their respective Greek words. One therefore cannot “litmus test” a Bible by those passages.

Check out the Latin Vulgate with BOTH agree with the Douay

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[porthos11]

Check out the Latin Vulgate with BOTH agree with the Douay

God Bless you,

Patrick

Of course, since the Douay is a translation of the Vulgate. It’s also why I would have nothing to do with it. It’s Latin masquerading as English.

The Vulgate, is not my gold standard in Biblical editions. So really, I do not care what the Latin says. I only care whether the edition of the Bible you’re working with is a faithful translation of its source material. The RSV is a translation of the Greek, so the only question is whether the words used are faithful to the Greek. I have shown that they are.