Double Predestination and Col. Kurtz

[ericc]

Hi Eric,

Col. Kurtz is the main antagonist in the movie ‘Apocalypse Now’. He is a U.S. Colonel who has gone rogue in the jungles of Vietnam. He utters the famous last words “…the horror…the horror…” as he dies in the closing scenes. It was my attempt at morbid humor.

Hi James,

That must be a movie quite a long while ago….

Father Most has an appealing interpretation of predestination. Perhaps you might want to take a look at it. ewtn.com/library/scriptur/predesti.txt

One need not consider the “fateful” aspect of double predestination if you accept Father Most view. It does not make a mockery of Christ appeal to everyone to repent if he knows the results have been fixed by him according to double predestination.

 

[James82]

Hi James,

That must be a movie quite a long while ago….

Father Most has an appealing interpretation of predestination. Perhaps you might want to take a look at it. ewtn.com/library/scriptur/predesti.txt

One need not consider the “fateful” aspect of double predestination if you accept Father Most view. It does not make a mockery of Christ appeal to everyone to repent if he knows the results have been fixed by him according to double predestination.

My favorite film of all time Eric! I highly recommend it. Okay I will check out the link, thank you.

 

[Darryl_B]

As far as, “It is only Abraham’s belief in God that predestined him to share in God’s predetermined plan for him.”

It wasn’t “Abraham’s belief in God”, it was God knowing that Abraham would believe that “predestined him to share in God’s predetermined plan for him”.

Also as far as, “Jesus Christ died to redeem ALL mankind, but not all are redeemed.”

Are you saying that Jesus died in vain since what He died for is NOT, according to what you wrote, going to be?

Therefore it was Abraham’s belief. That is really what it comes down to. God is working in everyone’s lives for their salvation, but our responding to His subtle hinting can be rebellion. I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear my voice and OPENS THE DOOR.

For I know the plans I have for you, plans to give you a hope and future. No belief, no plan, no action, no plan. That does not mean there is no plan, the plan exists but we reject it. Accepting, and acting in response and we are then predestined to the plan.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise but is patient TOWARD YOU, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH but EVERYONE come to REPENTANCE.

So yes, as I said Jesus Christ died to redeem ALL mankind, but not all are redeemed. Man is born predestined to hell, but that is not God’s plan, God’s plan is the exact opposite, but it requires belief and action.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Therefore it was Abraham’s belief. That is really what it comes down to. God is working in everyone’s lives for their salvation, but our responding to His subtle hinting can be rebellion. I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear my voice and OPENS THE DOOR.

For I know the plans I have for you, plans to give you a hope and future. No belief, no plan, no action, no plan. That does not mean there is no plan, the plan exists but we reject it. Accepting, and acting in response and we are then predestined to the plan.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise but is patient TOWARD YOU, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH but EVERYONE come to REPENTANCE.

So yes, as I said Jesus Christ died to redeem ALL mankind, but not all are redeemed. Man is born predestined to hell, but that is not God’s plan, God’s plan is the exact opposite, but it requires belief and action.

Seems to be that you are saying that God’s Plan is OPPOSED to predestination, is that right?

What I tried to say is that “predestination” is just one way of saying that God Is Omniscient.

Seems to me that if God Is Omniscient than God would know just who responds and who doesn’t respond, who repents and who doesn’t repent, actually it means that God knows absolutely everything about everything in God’s creation whether in the past, the present or the future.

Omnicience is actually a very simple concept even tho it is beyond our understanding, it is something that we either believe or don’t believe.

This is why quite a few can not believe that predestination and free will can coexist.

I understand why people can not believe this since I, most definitely, believe that there are “things” about God that are way beyond our ability to “understand”.

I would say that most everything, if not everything about God, we take on faith unless God has somehow “revealed” something to us and it seems to me that God does indeed reveal “something” to more people than most would imagine.

I believe that it says somewhere that “faith is a gift that no man may boast”, so if we have “faith” we should be thankful, if we have “knowledge” we should be thankful.

With me, I don’t know about anyone else, my little bit of “knowledge” very much influences my beliefs (faith).

 

[Indifferently]

If predestination is just one way of saying God is omniscient, then what is the purpose of Romans 9? If that was the definition of “predestination” Paul was working with in Romans 8, then why would he anticipate what he did in Romans 9 - what he rhetorically confronts in Rom. 9 is clearly what Calvinists today face, namely the charge that God is arbitrary in election.

Ephesians 1 also makes it clear that God’s predestination is not merely his omniscience. The Arminian view that God predestines only because he foreknows who will obey and who will not is simply not the doctrine Paul is articulating.

 

[Darryl_B]

Seems to be that you are saying that God’s Plan is OPPOSED to predestination, is that right?

Yes. In ways God’s plan is opposed to OUR predestination. Because if God did not intervene in our lives, if He did not change history, for me, for you, for everyone, we would all be predestined to hell (by birth), but God being Omniscient, sees the end, and intervenes (to an extent), provides graces, extends sonship (new birth), and gives an alternative predestination to that which we were already predestined to, by the grace of God.

 

[Indifferently]

Yes. In ways God’s plan is opposed to OUR predestination. Because if God did not intervene in our lives, if He did not change history, for me, for you, for everyone, we would all be predestined to hell (by birth), but God being Omniscient, sees the end, and intervenes (to an extent), provides graces, extends sonship (new birth), and gives an alternative predestination to that which we were already predestined to, by the grace of God.

So essentially for you, you are ultimately your own saviour, because you are the one who chooses whether you go to heaven or hell, not God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

If predestination is just one way of saying God is omniscient, then what is the purpose of Romans 9? If that was the definition of “predestination” Paul was working with in Romans 8, then why would he anticipate what he did in Romans 9 - what he rhetorically confronts in Rom. 9 is clearly what Calvinists today face, namely the charge that God is arbitrary in election.

Ephesians 1 also makes it clear that God’s predestination is not merely his omniscience. The Arminian view that God predestines only because he foreknows who will obey and who will not is simply not the doctrine Paul is articulating.

Would you say that God is Omniscient (knows everything) about those that God “predestines”?

Do you think that God is only Omniscient concerning those that God predestines?

I am not talking or writing about any “doctrine of Paul” unless that is if Paul articulated the doctrine of Omniscience.

I am not familiar with what “Calvinists today face” and they can deal with whatever that is, what I am saying is that “those that God predestines” is an example of Omniscience.

I happen to believe that God is Omniscient and that Omniscience covers not only “those that God predestines” but absolutely everything in God’s creation.

As I have said, either God is Omniscient or God isn’t, there is no such thing as partial Omniscience.

I would say that at least some of what is written in Romans is to give encouragement to some who need encouragement.

Ever heard it said, “You will speak and they will not hear”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes. In ways God’s plan is opposed to OUR predestination. Because if God did not intervene in our lives, if He did not change history, for me, for you, for everyone, we would all be predestined to hell (by birth), but God being Omniscient, sees the end, and intervenes (to an extent), provides graces, extends sonship (new birth), and gives an alternative predestination to that which we were already predestined to, by the grace of God.

God did NOT change history, God entered history, became a part of history.

I look at GOD’S PLAN as the whole of creation, not just up to a certain point and then God coming to the conclusion that something else had to be done.

God knew before the first stroke of creation, so to speak, about the Incarnation and absolutely everything else before or after the Incarnation, this is Omniscience and this includes but is not limited to those that God predestines.

 

[emarc]

This little story may throw some light on the question of predestination.
Fr. John Hayes was confronted with the problem of predestination in, of all places, a hay meadow. The hay was being saved so he went in to say, “God bless the work.”
“See here, Fr,”said the farmer leaning on his fork, “will you answer me one question that’s been bothering me for some time. Tell me now, doesn’t God know everything.?”
“Sure, he does,” came the reply.
“Doesn’t he know that I’m going to be saved or I’m going to be lost?”
“Hmmm, I suppose he does.”
“Then tell me why should I be bothering trying to save my soul. I’m not going to change his mind for him. Am I?”
“Well now, Bill,” said Fr. John after a little thought, we’re agreed that the good Lord knows everything – aren’t we?”
“Sure, Fr.”
“Doesn’t he know that this crop of hay will be saved or lost, doesn’t he?”
“I suppose he does, right enough!”
“Well then, Bill, why don’t you get up on your tractor and go home: You’re not going to change his mind are you?”
The farmer looked at him, got the message and went back to saving the hay.
Blessings.

 

[ericc]

This little story may throw some light on the question of predestination.
Fr. John Hayes was confronted with the problem of predestination in, of all places, a hay meadow. The hay was being saved so he went in to say, “God bless the work.”
“See here, Fr,”said the farmer leaning on his fork, “will you answer me one question that’s been bothering me for some time. Tell me now, doesn’t God know everything.?”
“Sure, he does,” came the reply.
“Doesn’t he know that I’m going to be saved or I’m going to be lost?”
“Hmmm, I suppose he does.”
“Then tell me why should I be bothering trying to save my soul. I’m not going to change his mind for him. Am I?”
“Well now, Bill,” said Fr. John after a little thought, we’re agreed that the good Lord knows everything – aren’t we?”
“Sure, Fr.”
“Doesn’t he know that this crop of hay will be saved or lost, doesn’t he?”
“I suppose he does, right enough!”
“Well then, Bill, why don’t you get up on your tractor and go home: You’re not going to change his mind are you?”
The farmer looked at him, got the message and went back to saving the hay.
Blessings.

Excellent! Can I do a jiggle and yodel “Yahoo!”?

This is a classic example of relying on predestination NOT to do anything. I always use the example of education. If I am already predestined to be a doctor or whatever , then I need not go to school and study for my exams. And also the classic example of praying to pass exams and not have to study for it.

It appears the answer to the problem of predestination rest entirely on what the person has to do to get things to happen and not relying on doing nothing. I am sure the good Lord didn’t intend for folks to rely on “fate” to not do something. Jesus and his apostles NEVER preached that it is futile for someone to repent to be saved since everyone is predestined. No one knows who will be saved at the very end. Do not presume you are predestined to be saved/damned regardless of which Bible you read if that has not been divinely revealed.

 

[Darryl_B]

So essentially for you, you are ultimately your own saviour, because you are the one who chooses whether you go to heaven or hell, not God.

This is exactly the reason why the subject has so much debate. It essentially doesn’t matter what one says, it will inevitably be twisted by an unrelated “So essentially for you …” progression of argument that actually has no real relationship to what was presented.

Your statement has no relationship to my statement.

 

[Darryl_B]

God did NOT change history, God entered history, became a part of history.

I look at GOD’S PLAN as the whole of creation, not just up to a certain point and then God coming to the conclusion that something else had to be done.

God knew before the first stroke of creation, so to speak, about the Incarnation and absolutely everything else before or after the Incarnation, this is Omniscience and this includes but is not limited to those that God predestines.

God DOES change history. Every time he intervenes in human history he changes history. That is Omnipotence.

 

[James82]

This little story may throw some light on the question of predestination.
Fr. John Hayes was confronted with the problem of predestination in, of all places, a hay meadow. The hay was being saved so he went in to say, “God bless the work.”
“See here, Fr,”said the farmer leaning on his fork, “will you answer me one question that’s been bothering me for some time. Tell me now, doesn’t God know everything.?”
“Sure, he does,” came the reply.
“Doesn’t he know that I’m going to be saved or I’m going to be lost?”
“Hmmm, I suppose he does.”
“Then tell me why should I be bothering trying to save my soul. I’m not going to change his mind for him. Am I?”
“Well now, Bill,” said Fr. John after a little thought, we’re agreed that the good Lord knows everything – aren’t we?”
“Sure, Fr.”
“Doesn’t he know that this crop of hay will be saved or lost, doesn’t he?”
“I suppose he does, right enough!”
“Well then, Bill, why don’t you get up on your tractor and go home: You’re not going to change his mind are you?”
The farmer looked at him, got the message and went back to saving the hay.
Blessings.

Thanks for the relaying that. I will have to remember this one!

 

[Tom_Baum]

God DOES change history. Every time he intervenes in human history he changes history. That is Omnipotence.

Absolutely everything that everybody does changes history, isn’t that what history is?

All that I am saying is that if God is Omniscient than God “knew” ALL of history before there was any history.

 

[Darryl_B]

Absolutely everything that everybody does changes history, isn’t that what history is?

All that I am saying is that if God is Omniscient than God “knew” ALL of history before there was any history.

We can only change history by jumping in a time machine, otherwise we are just living history. God who is outside time can see all time and change history, that is different. He doesn’t just know one timeline, he knows all potential timelines.

I agree that God “knew” ALL history but it is bigger than that he knows ALL potential history.

 

[RScottH]

This has been a fruitful discussion, most predestination topics turn into flame wars.

That story up at the top is something that I will be using myself from now on.
Gods sovereignty does not necessarily mean coercion. You still actively make a choice to do or not do something.

 

[Tom_Baum]

We can only change history by jumping in a time machine, otherwise we are just living history. God who is outside time can see all time and change history, that is different. He doesn’t just know one timeline, he knows all potential timelines.

I agree that God “knew” ALL history but it is bigger than that he knows ALL potential history.

If God “knows” all “potential” histories, does God “know” just which potential history will actually be history?

Knowing all “potential” histories is kinda like knowing all of the “potential” numbers in a lottery pick 4 as opposed to “knowing” which number will be drawn.

If one knows all of the “potentials”, one needs to buy 1000 tickets to “win” whereas if one know just which one will be drawn, one needs only to buy one to win.

My definition of Omniscience is that God knows what will be.

Your definition of Omniscience is that God knows what might be, granted, according to you, ALL of the might be’s, but not what will be.

 

[Darryl_B]

If God “knows” all “potential” histories, does God “know” just which potential history will actually be history?

That would make God bound to history, this is the actual history and God is bound to it. So no. God has omnipotence hand in hand with omniscience. God is not bound to fulfill history but he can make history.

Knowing all “potential” histories is kinda like knowing all of the “potential” numbers in a lottery pick 4 as opposed to “knowing” which number will be drawn.

If one knows all of the “potentials”, one needs to buy 1000 tickets to “win” whereas if one know just which one will be drawn, one needs only to buy one to win.

I know all potential outcomes in a pick 4 lottery. The answer is 1,2,3,4 1,2,3,5 1,2,3,6 etc. Those are all the potential outcomes. But God is able to see, IF 1,2,3,4 THEN this will happen, IF 1,2,3,5 THEN this will happen, IF 1,2,3,6 THEN this will happen. And therefore God knows what will be IF … so he intervenes in history to change it wherever He wants.

My definition of Omniscience is that God knows what will be.

My definition of omniscience is that God knows all that CAN be, and makes his WILL be. Again you are binding God to a specific timeline.

Your definition of Omniscience is that God knows what might be, granted, according to you, ALL of the might be’s, but not what will be.

Therefore no to this statement.

A question. There have been many aborted people. I won’t call them fetuses, I wont call them babies, they are potential people, and without human intervention they would have been. God had a plan for every one of them before the moment of conception, some could have done great things for our Faith. Abortion was not God’s plan for them. Who changed history in this instance, God or man?

 

[Tom_Baum]

That would make God bound to history, this is the actual history and God is bound to it. So no. God has omnipotence hand in hand with omniscience. God is not bound to fulfill history but he can make history.

If God were truly Omniscient then God would know just when God would use God’s Omnipotence in history before it became time for God to use it.

I know all potential outcomes in a pick 4 lottery. The answer is 1,2,3,4 1,2,3,5 1,2,3,6 etc. Those are all the potential outcomes. But God is able to see, IF 1,2,3,4 THEN this will happen, IF 1,2,3,5 THEN this will happen, IF 1,2,3,6 THEN this will happen. And therefore God knows what will be IF … so he intervenes in history to change it wherever He wants.

If God did not know just when God would “intervene in history” before God actually does the intervention than God would not be Omniscient.

You are saying that God has no more grasp of what will be than we do, only that God know all that could be which we do not know but not all that will be.

My definition of omniscience is that God knows all that CAN be, and makes his WILL be. Again you are binding God to a specific timeline.

I am not binding God to any "speicific timeline, I am just stating what Omniscience means and as far as I know just what the Catholic Church’s definition of Omniscience is too.

Therefore no to this statement.

A question. There have been many aborted people. I won’t call them fetuses, I wont call them babies, they are potential people, and without human intervention they would have been. God had a plan for every one of them before the moment of conception, some could have done great things for our Faith. Abortion was not God’s plan for them. Who changed history in this instance, God or man?

Are you saying that legal abortion caught God unaware that it would happen?

History, to me, is the story of man and creation.

God entered history and creation, as a Creature by becoming a Man.

If God does not know what will be history before it is history than by the definition of Omniscience, God is NOT Omniscient.

I do NOT “know” that God is Omniscient but I believe that God is Omniscient, you apparently don’t believe that God is Omniscient.