Double Predestination

[pcg2]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

 

[4Horsemen]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

God gives each human being the great gift of life regardless of any of our choices good or evil. Although He knows every one of our choices in advance, it does not deter Him from granting us his many gifts, including the gift of life. As Scripture says, it “rains on both the just and unjust.”

 

[the_7th_one]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

God is the creator of time and space; I have always viewed his relationship with us and the history of the Universe like a big book.
He sees the whole book of time, while we just see our few pages.He writes many of the pages, but has allowed us to write much of our own parts. In his love he has given us a true choice of heaven or hell. In his son Jesus he has given us a secound chance, to choose to change from Hell to Heaven.
We can not fully understand since we only see a few pages of the book, but God sees the whole thing
I hope that helps, or at least didn’t confuse you further

 

[pcg2]

while I appreciate the responses, I guess I am looking for an answer that is a bit more philosophical and theological.

if someone came to me with this objection, I want to be able to answer it without resorting to “Jesus loves us” tactics. while I certainly believe this to be true, it doesn’t help to answer the question, and it certainly wouldn’t be an adequate response to give to an unbeliever…

 

[Procorus]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

---

Let’s begin with the basics… (I will establish an Augustinian view here)

1. We all believe in Original Sin; that *all *men (with certain exemptions), due to Adam’s first transgression, have fallen together under the power of Sin.
2. Sin has affected every faculty of our being. In our natural state apart from God’s enabling Grace, we…a) have in us a heart made of stone (insenstive to God’s call).
   b) a mind that is set on the flesh (the inability to please God),
   c) ears that could not hear, and eyes that could not see (the spiritual inability to respond to God’s call),
   d) and a will that avails for nothing except to Sin (the inability of will to choose any spiritual good leading to Salvation)
3. With these in mind, if ever God has chosen (in eternity past) to condemn us all in hell (or to predestine us all unto eternal punishment, so none would be saved), He will remain just, since as sinners we all deserve hell. In the first place, God owes us nothing, and He is never obliged to save us.
4. But because of God’s great mercy and grace, He has chosen (or elected) a certain number of undeserving sinners to receive His effectual Grace leading them to the fullness of Salvation.
5. These elect individuals were not chosen because they would choose God (since none of them would unless God enables them), but rather, God has chosen them so that they would choose God.
6. Those who were not elected were left to their miserable state of spiritual inability in which all men fell due to their own fault.

Any questions before we proceed?

 

[JohnDamian]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

There are numerous reconciliations of this; however the best one is that our volition or nolition is more valuable than the negative consequences of our actions.

View it this way; is it better to have a child who you keep inside all day; or is their life greater for the freedom to go outside; even if such freedom might lead to danger?

 

[pcg2]

1. We all believe in Original Sin; that *all *men (with certain exemptions), due to Adam’s first transgression, have fallen together under the power of Sin.

okay

1. Sin has affected every faculty of our being. In our natural state apart from God’s enabling Grace, we…
   a) have in us a heart made of stone (insenstive to God’s call).
   b) a mind that is set on the flesh (the inability to please God),
   c) ears that could not hear, and eyes that could not see (the spiritual inability to respond to God’s call),
   d) and a will that avails for nothing except to Sin (the inability of will to choose any spiritual good leading to Salvation)
   ​

​

gotcha

1. With these in mind, if ever God has chosen (in eternity past) to condemn us all in hell (or to predestine us all unto eternal punishment, so none would be saved), He will remain just, since as sinners we all deserve hell. In the first place, God owes us nothing, and He is never obliged to save us.

This is where the problem starts. I understand that God has every right to send us to hell once we are created, but the problem lies in the fact that God creates certain humans in the first place, all the while knowing that they will choose hell. God owes us nothing, but how could someone call this God omnibenevolent when it seems He creates certain humans for the sole purpose of them choosing hell?

1. But because of God’s great mercy and grace, He has chosen (or elected) a certain number of undeserving sinners to receive His effectual Grace leading them to the fullness of Salvation.

Why some and not others? Yes, God owes us nothing, but it would seem cruel that he creates some people knowing that they will not choose Him. And from what you write, it seems like you are taking free will out of the situation. God chooses (or elects) ALL men to be saved, not just a select few… so how do you reconcile this fact with what you just wrote?

1. These elect individuals were not chosen because they would choose God (since none of them would unless God enables them), but rather, God has chosen them so that they would choose God.

Once again, it would seem from what you write that free will has been taken away from us, seeing as how God (arbitrarily) chooses some to be elect, and others not.

And just for clarification, I am just playing devil’s advocate here. I am trying to get in the mindset of a skeptic so I could adequately explain it to one should I meet him/her ​

 

[pcg2]

There are numerous reconciliations of this; however the best one is that our volition or nolition is more valuable than the negative consequences of our actions.

View it this way; is it better to have a child who you keep inside all day; or is their life greater for the freedom to go outside; even if such freedom might lead to danger?

Yes, their freedom is greater. But this analogy only works because I, as the parent, would not be omniscient. I would have no clue whether the child might be put in danger or not. If I knew that the child was going to get ran over by a semi, you better believe that this kid would be staying inside to play his Xbox that day. And that’s where the problem lies - it seems like God lets the child go outside, knowing that he’s going to get ran over.

 

[Procorus]

This is where the problem starts. I understand that God has every right to send us to hell once we are created, but the problem lies in the fact that God creates certain humans in the first place, all the while knowing that they will choose hell. God owes us nothing, but how could someone call this God omnibenevolent when it seems He creates certain humans for the sole purpose of them choosing hell?

@pcg2,
I would focus on this one first before I proceed to the rest of your queries, okay?
Here’s my response, please read carefully.

First, I must acquaint you about the different views on the order of sequence of God’s decree in eternity past concerning Man and Salvation. Here they are (please take note of the the essential distinctions, which I will explain further later on):

Supralapsarian view (aka. Hyper-Calvinism):

1. 
   *]The decree to elect some to be saved and to reprobate the rest
   *]The decree to create both the elect and the reprobate
   *]The decree to Permit the Fall
   *]The decree to provide Salvation for the elect only
   *]The decree to effectually call the elect to the fullness of Salvation
   
   Infralapsarian view: (this is the Augustinian position)
   
   1. 
      *]The decree to create all humans
      *]The decree to Permit the Fall
      *]The decree to elect some and reprobate the rest
      *]The decree to provide Salvation sufficient for all, but efficient only to the elect
      *]The decree to effectually call the elect to the fullness of Salvation
      
      Amyraldian view:
      
      1. 
         *]The decree to create all humans
         *]The decree to Permit the Fall
         *]The decree to provide Salvation equally available for all
         *]The decree to elect some and reprobate the rest
         *]The decree to effectually call the elect to the fullness of Salvation
         
         Semi-Pelagian view:
         
         1. 
            *]The decree to create all humans
            *]The decree to Permit the Fall
            *]The decree to provide Salvation equally available for all
            *]The decree to provide “prevenient” grace to all people, enabling them to respond to God’s call despite of their falleness.
            *]The decree to elect those God “foreknows” will exercise faith in Christ and the decree to leave all others to the recompense of their sin.
            
            When you said, “it seems He creates certain humans for the sole purpose of them choosing hell”, you seem to be referring to the Supralapsarian view, which states that God has first and foremost decreed to elect and to reprobate before even creating them, thus making election and reprobation the cause of creation. I abhor such monstrous doctrine.
            
            I, as an Augustinian, firmly believe that Infralapsarian view is the correct one. God’s decree to create and permit the Fall logically precedes His decree to elect and to reprobate; For how can He elect or reprobate people which do not yet exist? Thus, God did not create the reprobate to send them to hell, but rather he reprobated them with the consequences of Man’s Fall in mind (as the indirect basis of their reprobation).
            
            That’s why we must never disregard God’s decree to Permit the Fall. When God decreed to Permit the Fall to occur, He is perfectly aware that this would destroy man’s ability of will with regards to any righteous acts leading to Salvation apart from His enabling Grace. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying man lost his “free will”. But in the Augustinian tradition, “free will” is understood merely as man’s ability to choose apart from any constraining force outside himself. In other words, when man fell unto Sin, he remains “free” (unconstrained), but not “free” with regards to righteousness, since the Will is always determined by our nature, and that our nature has been radically tainted by Sin.
            
            Another thing that we must keep in mind is that we fell unto the fetters of Sin due to our own fault. Thus, if God would ever send us all in hell, he is Just. Now is it not a wonderful news that God has elected some unto Salvation according to His Grace?

 

[Procorus]

BUT WHY ELECT & REPROBATE?

I think we can find the answer in the parable of the weeds (Matt 13)
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matt 13:36-43

• God establishes role models to enable ordinary humans to emulate and be saved
• In His infinite wisdom and fairness He gives Satan equal chance to oppose by allowing him to plant evil ones
• Thus we have some predestined for God’s glory, some doomed for death and the vast majority ordinary ones who are to freely choose where they would like to be finally

So in your final analysis, there are actually three groups of people,

1. • the elect (E)
   • the reprobate (R)
   • those who are left to their own will to choose their destinity (X)
   So where did you get this idea from?

 

[Pitcharan]

So in your final analysis, there are actually three groups of people,

1. • the elect (E)
   • the reprobate (R)
   • those who are left to their own will to choose their destinity (X)
   So where did you get this idea from?

1. 
   A slight correction to your reading of my post: they (X) are not left to their own, but rather freely choose to be led either by the elect (E) or the reprobate (R). E and R respectively represent God and Satan on earth. As mentioned in the post, they (X) need to be reborn (re-created) through the sacraments.
   
   This is my own idea and I am merely discussing it. The precursor to this idea was again an own view about sin and its origin which I present here below:
   • I think (not believe) that the original sin is bigger than what has ever been perceived by either East, West or any other denomination.
   • The key to salvific success lies in deeply understanding sin.
   • Our Lord’s encouraging words: "In this world you will have trouble; but take heart, I have overcome the world", only indicates the gravity of the situation caused by sin that He had to come down and personally explain, re-assure, suffer and die on the cross as expiation for our sins.
   • While disobedience and craving of flesh are lesser aspects of original sin, the greater (or worst) aspects are ingratitude and pride
   • Had there been any sense of gratitude in Adam and Eve, for all the love and loving bounties received from God, this would have provided saving grace to refuse any other invitation or apparently attractive offer. The saving grace would have enabled seeing through deception.
   • Again, the Israelites of Exodus, were ungrateful for the innumerable bounties received: freedom from cruel slavery, water-manna-quails in the wilderness. That is why they had no enabling grace to observe God’s Law and stumbled.
   • Gratitude is reciprocal love and is the harbinger and winner of graces
   • Ingratitude is the grace blocker that renders us spiritually blind, weak and vulnerable to attack.
   • The weakening and spiritual blindness caused by ingratitude paved the way for Satan to inject pride in Adam and Eve.
   • Eve’s proud act was aspiring to become like God using Satan’s advice.
   • Adam’s proud act is far greater than Eve’s; by beginning his response to God’s questioning with "The woman you put here with me—, he literally blamed God. This is the height of pride.
   • The entire ordeal of the most blameless man on earth — Job, was meant to wipe out even remote latent potential for this very sin - viz., questioning / evaluating / scrutinising God’s actions and judgments.

 

[documetnsitheme]

we make choices based on our free will. we choose what we want and are not forced to do anything.

iRenew

 

[Ravemacneil]

If the statement is, “God shouldn’t create beings He knows will go to Hell”,

then that is the same statement as, “God shouldn’t create”,

since creation precedes the fall, as Procorus eloquently pointed out.

To carry that logic through, the statement “God shouldn’t create” is the same as “God shouldn’t create beings He will save by Grace and bring to Heaven,”

which gives the whole thing to those who are evil. It’s not dissimilar from saying since some people steal, and will have to go to jail, it’s better that no one gets to own anything.

It’s the ultimate act of benevolence to allow the fall.

The consequences speak entirely of our inner nature, not that of God.

Peace†
RMN

 

[slywakka250]

Procorus:

Another thing that we must keep in mind is that we fell unto the fetters of Sin due toour own fault. Thus, if God would ever send us all in hell, he is Just. Now is it not a wonderful news that God has electedsome*unto Salvation according to His Grace?

No certainly not. The existence of hell is an inconceivable tragedy. Even one person enduring hell even more so. A horrific thought to behold, a soul languishing in hell, without hope, totally separated from God, to suffer tortures and pains for ever with no rest.

There is no way you can call this state of affairs, “wonderful news.” What if you were not elected by God? Tell me, will you happily accept his just judgment of your original sin and personal sins in hell? No, nobody tolerates hell. You will be rotting away in the flames, with vile hatred for the God who loves you. You will be consumed with rage, as the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Ravemacneil:

To carry that logic through, the statement “God shouldn’t create” is the same as “God shouldn’t create beings He will save by Grace and bring to Heaven,”

which gives the whole thing to those who are evil. It’s not dissimilar from saying since some people steal, and will have to go to jail, it’s better that no one gets to own anything.

This implies somehow it is necessary that a fall would occur, or necessary that there will be people who will steal. God could have created only those who he knew would freely choose him. In this case, there would be no fall. The possibility of a fall could still exist, but it would never happen because God in his omniscience only created those who would not fall. This raises the question, what reason did God have for choosing to create those who he knew would reject him, and how does this reason justify the suffering which a soul endures in hell?? (while hell may be freely chosen, it is still God who is indirectly responsible for the fact that a soul exists in eternal torment, by creating very unfavorable conditions for such a soul! (perhaps by not choosing him as one of the elect, the soul is doomed because of his ancestors from the original fall which God knew would happen, and the pitiful soul can’t do a thing about it!))

What is indeed the purpose of such a universe where there are people in hell eternally?? why do we not have reincarnation where we could take many lifetimes to reach our spiritual goal? Why not allow the possibility of annihilation? Why not just create those who will not fall? Free will and the ability to make a loving choice for God is some how supposed to justify things, but tell me this. If only 1% make it to heaven, and the rest burn in hell justly, how is this not a horrific tragedy! Given a choice to live in such a universe, who would choose it? If the odds are bad, how good heaven is is irrelevant.

In my analysis here, I’m assuming that at least one man actually goes to hell. The Church no where declares this to be so, however many Catholics seem to see it as very likely that hell has a population greater than or equal to one. Personally, I will tolerate no one in hell, no matter how badly they supposedly “want” to go there with their enjoyment of sin here on earth. I see the deck stacked against men in the collective, that is, the game is fixed in the sense that God has set the universe in motion, where it is perhaps just short of necessary (if not, in fact, logically necessary) that hell will have at least one person in it. If the odds were this good (one person in hell, they are in fact likely far worse than this) I do not want to play the game! No matter how good heaven is, the risk of hell is not worth it when we do not know the odds. God does not allow us to be annihilated. The state of affairs I’m describing here, (and I’m being generous I think, using the Semi-Pelagian view, where God actually makes salvation equally available!) is even still completely unjust and cruel. This why I want desperately to convince myself that this horrific state of affairs cannot be true! Yet I’m confronted with all the evidence for the truth of God, and I’m truly horrified, and unable to pray or worship or love such a terrible God as this.

 

[4Horsemen]

No certainly not. The existence of hell is an inconceivable tragedy. Even one person enduring hell even more so. A horrific thought to behold, a soul languishing in hell, without hope, totally separated from God, to suffer tortures and pains for ever with no rest.

What about the victims of those who are doomed to Hell? Surely those who are predestined to Hell weren’t saints on earth although many are very good at covering up their deeds. The OP could be expanded with an inquiry why God would create people who would only have great sufferings on earth. Why would He allow poor children to be born who would be beaten and abused?

There is no way you can call this state of affairs, “wonderful news.” What if you were not elected by God?

The “elect” are the people who have freely chosen God. It’s not that God has chosen certain souls for eternal happiness and others for eternal punishment.

This implies somehow it is necessary that a fall would occur, or necessary that there will be people who will steal. God could have created only those who he knew would freely choose him. In this case, there would be no fall. The possibility of a fall could still exist, but it would never happen because God in his omniscience only created those who would not fall. This raises the question, what reason did God have for choosing to create those who he knew would reject him, and how does this reason justify the suffering which a soul endures in hell?? (while hell may be freely chosen, it is still God who is indirectly responsible for the fact that a soul exists in eternal torment, by creating very unfavorable conditions for such a soul! (perhaps by not choosing him as one of the elect, the soul is doomed because of his ancestors from the original fall which God knew would happen, and the pitiful soul can’t do a thing about it!))

God died for that person who rejected Him. If that person were the only one on earth, God would have died for him, EVEN KNOWING that person would betray Him (reject His love and His Mercy) and turn away from Him. It is said by certain saints that God does not thrust a person into Hell, but when that soul is standing before Him after death, he cannot bear the brightness (purity, holiness) of God and thrusts himself into Hell.

What is indeed the purpose of such a universe where there are people in hell eternally?? why do we not have reincarnation where we could take many lifetimes to reach our spiritual goal? Why not allow the possibility of annihilation? Why not just create those who will not fall? Free will and the ability to make a loving choice for God is some how supposed to justify things, but tell me this. If only 1% make it to heaven, and the rest burn in hell justly, how is this not a horrific tragedy! Given a choice to live in such a universe, who would choose it? If the odds are bad, how good heaven is is irrelevant.

(Are you Catholic?)

 

[benedictus2]

This is where the problem starts. I understand that God has every right to send us to hell once we are created, but the problem lies in the fact that God creates certain humans in the first place, all the while knowing that they will choose hell**. God owes us nothing, but how could someone call this God omnibenevolent when it seems He creates certain humans for the sole purpose of them choosing hell? **

Why some and not others? **Yes, God owes us nothing, but it would seem cruel that he creates some people knowing that they will not choose Him. **And from what you write, it seems like you are taking free will out of the situation. God chooses (or elects) ALL men to be saved, not just a select few… so how do you reconcile this fact with what you just wrote?

**Once again, it would seem from what you write that free will has been taken away from us, seeing as how God (arbitrarily) chooses some to be elect, and others not. **

And just for clarification, I am just playing devil’s advocate here. I am trying to get in the mindset of a skeptic so I could adequately explain it to one should I meet him/her

Water in parched land! Ahh for clear thinking. Exactly the points I have been writing from day one.

And no one has been able to sufficiently answer them.

But there’s of course the stock standard answer’ God is omnipotent everything He does is just". Meanwhile I am still waiting for an explanation as to how exactly it is just.

Also, there is the fact that so many verses in the Bible prove them false.

 

[benedictus2]

No certainly not. The existence of hell is an inconceivable tragedy. Even one person enduring hell even more so. A horrific thought to behold, a soul languishing in hell, without hope, totally separated from God, to suffer tortures and pains for ever with no rest.

There is no way you can call this state of affairs, “wonderful news.” What if you were not elected by God? Tell me, will you happily accept his just judgment of your original sin and personal sins in hell? No, nobody tolerates hell. You will be rotting away in the flames, with vile hatred for the God who loves you. You will be consumed with rage, as the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

This implies somehow it is necessary that a fall would occur, or necessary that there will be people who will steal. God could have created only those who he knew would freely choose him. In this case, there would be no fall. The possibility of a fall could still exist, but it would never happen because God in his omniscience only created those who would not fall. This raises the question, what reason did God have for choosing to create those who he knew would reject him, and how does this reason justify the suffering which a soul endures in hell?? (while hell may be freely chosen, it is still God who is indirectly responsible for the fact that a soul exists in eternal torment, by creating very unfavorable conditions for such a soul! (perhaps by not choosing him as one of the elect, the soul is doomed because of his ancestors from the original fall which God knew would happen, and the pitiful soul can’t do a thing about it!))

What is indeed the purpose of such a universe where there are people in hell eternally?? why do we not have reincarnation where we could take many lifetimes to reach our spiritual goal? Why not allow the possibility of annihilation? Why not just create those who will not fall? Free will and the ability to make a loving choice for God is some how supposed to justify things, but tell me this. If only 1% make it to heaven, and the rest burn in hell justly, how is this not a horrific tragedy! Given a choice to live in such a universe, who would choose it? If the odds are bad, how good heaven is is irrelevant.

In my analysis here, I’m assuming that at least one man actually goes to hell. The Church no where declares this to be so, however many Catholics seem to see it as very likely that hell has a population greater than or equal to one. Personally, I will tolerate no one in hell, no matter how badly they supposedly “want” to go there with their enjoyment of sin here on earth. I see the deck stacked against men in the collective, that is, the game is fixed in the sense that God has set the universe in motion, where it is perhaps just short of necessary (if not, in fact, logically necessary) that hell will have at least one person in it. If the odds were this good (one person in hell, they are in fact likely far worse than this) I do not want to play the game! No matter how good heaven is, the risk of hell is not worth it when we do not know the odds. God does not allow us to be annihilated. The state of affairs I’m describing here, (and I’m being generous I think, using the Semi-Pelagian view, where God actually makes salvation equally available!) is even still completely unjust and cruel. This why I want desperately to convince myself that this horrific state of affairs cannot be true! Yet I’m confronted with all the evidence for the truth of God, and I’m truly horrified, and unable to pray or worship or love such a terrible God as this.

Great post.

Have no fear. You are not worshiping such a terrible God as this.

God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son.

God IS love. He does not predestine into damnation. He loves and will love us into goodness.

If there is anyone in hell, that would have been his or her choice.

I wonder how someone can sleep having such a horrible idea of God. Surely that must manifest in one’s dealing with others.

God makes grace available to all but we can refuse it. But it will not be for God’s not giving us enough grace.

I think that is why the sin of Adam and Eve was such a terrible thing. Because being in a state of grace, obedience to God would have been such a piece of cake and yet they still chose to disobey.

As Father Barron said, Hell is the final and definitive no to God.

 

[benedictus2]

It is truly wonderful news that God elected some unto Salvation according to His Grace, despite the fact that we fell because of our own fault and He could have sent us all to hell.

Now, coming to the tragedy of those who die in hell, no human compassion can even compare to even a fraction of God’s compassion.

Exactly, and yet her view seems a lot more compassionate than what some have proposed. So how can that be? Perhaps the others are wrong after all in their assessment.

Bengoshi said He will give the medicine to all his ailing children and yet He says that God will not (and will only give them to some). But he maintains, God is love and God is just.

And exactly how he can’t say.

 

[benedictus2]

What about the victims of those who are doomed to Hell? Surely those who are predestined to Hell weren’t saints on earth although many are very good at covering up their deeds. The OP could be expanded with an inquiry why God would create people who would only have great sufferings on earth. Why would He allow poor children to be born who would be beaten and abused?

Because He can bring a greater good out of it.

The “elect” are the people who have freely chosen God. It’s not that God has chosen certain souls for eternal happiness and others for eternal punishment.

God died for that person who rejected Him. If that person were the only one on earth, God would have died for him, EVEN KNOWING that person would betray Him (reject His love and His Mercy) and turn away from Him. It is said by certain saints that God does not thrust a person into Hell, but when that soul is standing before Him after death, he cannot bear the brightness (purity, holiness) of God and thrusts himself into Hell.

Yes, yes, yes.

Father Barron puts it this way even the damned are in God’s presence but God’s presence is what makes it hell for them.
I would put it this way, the very love and beauty that the saints glory in are what makes the damned writhe in pain.

 

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I share below some of my thoughts (not beliefs) which could throw some light:
SPIRITUAL WARFARE
The life of man upon earth is a warfare. (Job 7:1a) A monumental struggle against the powers of darkness pervades the whole history of man. The battle was joined from the very origins of the world and will continue until the last day. (PC 37).

Our pursuit of salvation, can be best described as a struggle; it is the ‘inner struggle’ that we go through during our sojourn on earth. The same meaning – struggle, is shared by the Hebrew proper noun Israel, again in a salvific sense. Some of my own learnings from the experience of waging holy war against my own carnal flesh and the inspirations that sustain me in my struggle, are shared here.

The origin of spiritual warfare reminds me of Newton’s third law: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It is Satan’s reaction to God’s plan of eternal joy for mankind. In perfect fairness, God grants Satan equal right to oppose His plan while empowering us to freely choose between good and evil.

God’s design is wonderfully perfect and we are provided the best means to choose freely. He even offers a foretaste of both heaven and hell and gives us the longest rope of opportunities. Pharaoh was given eleven chances to let the Israelites go free (Exodus 7-11); here ‘eleven’ is used symbolically to convey the same meaning as in the English idiom ‘eleventh hour’.

Satan’s modus operandi is explained beautifully in the book of Genesis (Gen 3). His freedom is limited to deceiving us into believing evil to be good and vice-versa. As part of his deception game he generates impressive illusions to make evil appear attractive and good appear repulsive. In this process, Satan’s main weapon is our own flesh and our battle is the inner struggle between our spirit and our flesh.

The struggle then, is all about enduring much trouble which is the price to be paid by God’s children who choose ‘bitter’ good in preference to ‘sweet’ evil. Though it may appear to be too heavy and unbearable, it is actually too trivial a price when compared to the final glory that awaits those who abide and endure till the end. So come, let us face our battle together with the single-minded purpose of gaining the eternal reward that is far too greater than all temporal treasures combined.

LOVE, LUST, ELECT, ORDINARY & REPROBATE

• I think (not believe) that human beings who are created in the image and likeness of God can reproduce in 3 ways
• The attraction or driving force for conjugal union can be love, lust or “perverse urge from a depraved mind”
• Love is from God and the union of love will produce children predestined for sharing God’s glory. Example of love based union: Tobias and Sarah.
• Lust is a prompting of our sin inclined flesh and will produce ordinary children who need to be reborn (re-created) through sacraments in order to be able to share in God’s glory.
• Perverse acts from depraved minds (fornication) are synonomous with evil and produce reprobate children doomed for hell. Eg. Judas Iscariot.
• Ordinary children could go either way depending on what they choose while exercising their free will.
• Sacraments provide special strength and protection and thereby favorably incline them to being saved.

BUT WHY ELECT & REPROBATE?

I think we can find the answer in the parable of the weeds (Matt 13)
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matt 13:36-43

• God establishes role models to enable ordinary humans to emulate and be saved
• In His infinite wisdom and fairness He allows Satan to equally oppose by planting evil ones
• Thus we have some predestined for God’s glory, some doomed for death and the vast majority ordinary ones who are to freely choose where they would like to be finally

From what you write, you don’t seem to be able to reconcile God’s omnibenevolence with his omnipotence. How can God arbitrarily choose some to be saved and others not. While I understand that He owes us nothing, how could he create some, knowing that they will choose hell?