Double Predestination

[pcg2]

@pcg2,
I would focus on this one first before I proceed to the rest of your queries, okay?
Here’s my response, please read carefully.

First, I must acquaint you about the different views on the order of sequence of God’s decree in eternity past concerning Man and Salvation. Here they are (please take note of the the essential distinctions, which I will explain further later on):

Supralapsarian view (aka. Hyper-Calvinism):

1. 
   *]The decree to elect some to be saved and to reprobate the rest
   *]The decree to create both the elect and the reprobate
   *]The decree to Permit the Fall
   *]The decree to provide Salvation for the elect only
   *]The decree to effectually call the elect to the fullness of Salvation
   
   Infralapsarian view: (this is the Augustinian position)
   
   1. 
      *]The decree to create all humans
      *]The decree to Permit the Fall
      *]The decree to elect some and reprobate the rest
      *]The decree to provide Salvation sufficient for all, but efficient only to the elect
      *]The decree to effectually call the elect to the fullness of Salvation
      
      Amyraldian view:
      
      1. 
         *]The decree to create all humans
         *]The decree to Permit the Fall
         *]The decree to provide Salvation equally available for all
         *]The decree to elect some and reprobate the rest
         *]The decree to effectually call the elect to the fullness of Salvation
         
         Semi-Pelagian view:
         
         1. 
            *]The decree to create all humans
            *]The decree to Permit the Fall
            *]The decree to provide Salvation equally available for all
            *]The decree to provide “prevenient” grace to all people, enabling them to respond to God’s call despite of their falleness.
            *]The decree to elect those God “foreknows” will exercise faith in Christ and the decree to leave all others to the recompense of their sin.
            
            When you said, “it seems He creates certain humans for the sole purpose of them choosing hell”, you seem to be referring to the Supralapsarian view, which states that God has first and foremost decreed to elect and to reprobate before even creating them, thus making election and reprobation the cause of creation. I abhor such monstrous doctrine.
            
            I, as an Augustinian, firmly believe that Infralapsarian view is the correct one. God’s decree to create and permit the Fall logically precedes His decree to elect and to reprobate; For how can He elect or reprobate people which do not yet exist? Thus, God did not create the reprobate to send them to hell, but rather he reprobated them with the consequences of Man’s Fall in mind (as the indirect basis of their reprobation).
            
            That’s why we must never disregard God’s decree to Permit the Fall. When God decreed to Permit the Fall to occur, He is perfectly aware that this would destroy man’s ability of will with regards to any righteous acts leading to Salvation apart from His enabling Grace. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying man lost his “free will”. But in the Augustinian tradition, “free will” is understood merely as man’s ability to choose apart from any constraining force outside himself. In other words, when man fell unto Sin, he remains “free” (unconstrained), but not “free” with regards to righteousness, since the Will is always determined by our nature, and that our nature has been radically tainted by Sin.
            
            Another thing that we must keep in mind is that we fell unto the fetters of Sin due to our own fault. Thus, if God would ever send us all in hell, he is Just. Now is it not a wonderful news that God has elected some unto Salvation according to His Grace?

1. 1. 1. 1. 
            I guess in order to understand what you are trying to argue, we should clarify a term that you use – “elect”. What do you mean. Do you mean that they are elect in the sense that God chose them, before creation, to go to heaven? In this case, free will is out. Or do you mean that they are elect in the sense that they have freely chosen to go to heaven? If used in this sense, then every single person ever created is “elect” because we are all given the chance to be saved…
            
            Must be something I don’t get – forgive my ignorance

 

[4Horsemen]

I guess in order to understand what you are trying to argue, we should clarify a term that you use – “elect”. What do you mean. Do you mean that they are elect in the sense that God chose them, before creation, to go to heaven? In this case, free will is out. Or do you mean that they are elect in the sense that they have freely chosen to go to heaven? If used in this sense, then every single person ever created is “elect” because we are all given the chance to be saved…

Must be something I don’t get – forgive my ignorance

IMHO, the elect are those whose names are in the “Book of Life” and who have washed their robes in the “blood of the Lamb.” In other words, those who have chosen righteousness and truth, those who have been true to the Lord, who have “run the race.” (St. Paul). We are all “elect-able.”

 

[Nan_S]

What we have here is an apparent conflict which John Calvin was not able to reconcile.

1. God knows everything.
2. Man has free will.

So Calvin, made the mistake of concluding that his limited, fallible human brain (operating completely within the boundaries of linear time) had to have the capacity to reconcile the two. He looked at how we move in one direction through time, and imagined that God sees time the same way we do. He put God’s perspective in a “before-after” box, like ours is, and concluded that the only way God could know everyting was to know “before” we did.

And so, having locked God’s perspective in a box of human making, Calvin concluded that our free will must be an illusion, that we are limited to what God has predestined. Essentially, we are all slaves to what God planned for us, and no matter how we try to deviate from the path we’re going to wind up where God pre-chose for us to go.

It didn’t seem to occur to Calvin that God might have a perspective different from his. Nor that God’s perspective could be so different from his own, so much greater than his own, that God would know things which were completely beyond his (Calvin’s) ability to grasp. Calvin didn’t want to admit that his human brain would be unable to reason his way to an answer. Implicitly, Calvin decided that if his perspective was limited to “before-after”, God’s must be limited also. Big, prideful error.

What Calvin didn’t realize: God created time. God is outside of time. God exists when and where time does not exist, where what we see as “past, present and future” are all together as one. Essentially, God exists in an eternal “now” where everything is simultaneous and instantaneous. There is no gap between imagining something and holding a finished product. For God, to think is both to be and to be done. The great theologians have realized that God is eternal and unchanging, because in that eternal “now” outside of time change can not exist.

But God wanted us to have a chance to think things through, to make up our own minds, to grow, and to change. So God created time. He stretched out that which was simultaneous and instantaneous so they would no longer be together, so that there would need to be motion to get from one side to the other. And God created a universe where change is not only possible, it is necessary. And then, having created a place where change is necessary, he put us there and told us to think.

Keep in mind, though, that even though God sees us thinking, contemplating, choosing, and changing our minds, God is not trapped in our time-box. God is still outside of time, where everything merely is “all-at-once”. The reason God knows what we will do “before” we do it is because from God’s viewpoint “before-after” are meaningless; we have already done it.

We still have the choice. We still pick our path. God does not override our choice with compulsion to force us down any path. True Love is always freely given. Love which comes from compulsion is a meaningless show. This is what John Calvin failed to understand.

 

[fhansen]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

We just have to realize that God deemed it right and good to give man a free will so free that man has god-like control over his own fate- a control free to repulse the very will of God.

 

[benedictus2]

That’s why we must never disregard God’s decree to Permit the Fall. When God decreed to Permit the Fall to occur, He is perfectly aware that this would destroy man’s ability of will with regards to any righteous acts leading to Salvation apart from His enabling Grace. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying man lost his “free will”.

Procorus, three questions:

• Why did God create?
• What is the purpose / destinity of man inherent in that creation?
• Why did God permit the fall?

 

[benedictus2]

BUT WHY ELECT & REPROBATE?

I think the better question to ask is Why Create and Allow the Fall since election flows out of necessity from this.

Reprobation as in predetination to damnation is not dogma.

[/quote]

 

[Bob_Crowley]

So I thought that I knew how to answer this question, but upon further reflection, I need to have a better understanding if this. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that God does predestine people to heaven, but not to hell (since he wills all men to be saved.)

Since God is omniscient, he knows who will go to heaven or hell. So how do we as Christians reconcile the belief that God is omnibenevolent, when it would seem that he creates some humans all the while knowing that they will choose hell?

I know the answer has something to do with the fact that time isn’t linear, but I really don’t remember how to adequatel answer this question. Help would be appreciated

I think CS Lewis summed it up. In the Lord’s Prayer we pray, “Your will be done…”

When someone chooses hell, God in effect says, “Your will be done.”

Granted this seems a bit simple when we consider all the factors that may come into a person’s life - upbringing, training, circumstances etc. I’m reminded here of a recent TV series on Australian criminals. There was one family of career criminals whose mother was a prostitute and brothel madam. So from childhood they were exposed to the criminal underworld, and not much else. The odds were stacked against them from the beginning. But then God gave their mother the responsibility of parenthood. How did she use it?

And the reverse is often true. When both parents are Christian, there is a very high chance their children will be Christian, or at least moral in their behaviour. The odds then are stacked in their favour. Again God gave the parents the responsibility to bring up their children. How did they use it?

Yet when its all said and done, despite our upbringing and circumstances, the choice is ours. To be honest, I sometimes wonder if God takes a person’s background into account as much as a human court does. His interest is basically justice tempered by mercy, and in turn that will be heavliy dependent on how we treated other people.

 

[benedictus2]

This is enabled by planting elect humans while permitting Satan to plant reprobate beings.

This is where the weakness of your argument lie. You seem to think that God created the elect elect and somehow Satan created the reprobate?

The elect who are predestined to glory live with the ordinary ones and even suffer like them but show them what is good and lead them to God. The reprobate are devils in human guise who represent Satan.

Nope. As far as I could determined based on what Bengoshi, Peter Holter and Procorus have written, the reprobate are not devils in human guise.

Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matt 13:36-43

You are misunderstanding this parable if you think this supports your argument. This parable is not about the elect and the reprobate. The weeds sown by the evil one are not men.

 

[Pitcharan]

This is where the weakness of your argument lie. You seem to think that God created the elect elect and somehow Satan created the reprobate?

You seem to be hell bent on making this false charge of me stating that Satan creates. What is your intention? Have I not repeatedly clarified to you in my earlier posts on the other thread?

Nope. As far as I could determined based on what Bengoshi, Peter Holter and Procorus have written, the reprobate are not devils in human guise.But I think so and can provide more biblical proofs in support of my view.

You are misunderstanding this parable if you think this supports your argument. This parable is not about the elect and the reprobate.This parable of the weeds is one of the two parables that was explained by our Lord Himself and its meaning is crystal clear. If you wish to explain it differently, I can only say there is no need at all since our Lord has already explained this parable.

The weeds sown by the evil one are not men.

I never said they are men; I am saying they are devils in human guise.

 

[benedictus2]

I never said they are men; I am saying they are devils in human guise.

You really believe that there are men going about in this world now who are really devil’s who have taken on the human form?

Is the devil capable of taking on human form.

The devil can posses humans but devils do not take on human form. Someone correct me on that one if I am wrong.

 

[benedictus2]

You seem to be hell bent on making this false charge of me stating that Satan creates. What is your intention? Have I not repeatedly clarified to you in my earlier posts on the other thread?

Well how about by your very own words in the post I replied to;

Pitcharan:

This is enabled by planting elect humans while **permitting Satan to plant reprobate beings. **

So you are saying God created these reprobate beings? To what purpose?

 

[4Horsemen]

You really believe that there are men going about in this world now who are really devil’s who have taken on the human form?

Is the devil capable of taking on human form.

The devil can posses humans but devils do not take on human form. Someone correct me on that one if I am wrong.

Although I agree with your argumentation that there are no devils in human form as reprobates or stealing the souls of reprobates (if I’m understanding correctly).

However, the devil can appear in many ways and can even appear as an angel in disguise. I believe that was said in Scripture (“angel of light”?). I’ll see if I can find a reference. He can take upon himself a human body as in false apparations (Medjugorje & Garabandal to name a couple), which are counterfeits of true apparitions (Fatima).

 

[Pitcharan]

Well how about by your very own words in the post I replied to;

Your persistant desire to brand me as person who attributes creative powers to Satan has blinded you that you do not even notice what is written by me; and repeatedly raise questions that will make appear as a preacher of falsehood. I am unfazed by your likes and trust in God alone. The intentions behind your question is exposed below in my answer.

So you are saying God created these reprobate beings? To what purpose?

Did you not read my post? Here I reproduce the relevant portion:

He foreknew by His infinite wisdom, that His purpose will be fulfilled only by exercise of free will of humans that is aligned to His own will. Free exercise of human will means, knowing all about good and evil by actually tasting the consequence of either choice and then freely choosing between the two. This is enabled by planting elect humans while permitting Satan to plant reprobate beings. .

 

[Pitcharan]

You really believe that there are men going about in this world now who are really devil’s who have taken on the human form?

Is the devil capable of taking on human form.

The devil can posses humans but devils do not take on human form. Someone correct me on that one if I am wrong.

I appreciate your humility in admitting that you are unsure and turning to readers for an answer. (or is it to muster readers’ support for your view?) Well the answer is simple: If God sent His own Son as a human incarnation, logically He would permit Satan to do so too. Have you read this verse? "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." (Heb 13:2). Does it not confirm that angels can take human form. Did you not read about how angel Raphael lived for many days with Tobias, in human guise?

 

[Pitcharan]

You really believe that there are men going about in this world now who are really devil’s who have taken on the human form?Yes I do. Not out of some baseless fantasy but on the basis of meditative readings and inspirations. Have you not read this? For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.(Matt 24:24)

 

[benedictus2]

Although I agree with your argumentation that there are no devils in human form as reprobates or stealing the souls of reprobates (if I’m understanding correctly).

However, the devil can appear in many ways and can even appear as an angel in disguise. I believe that was said in Scripture (“angel of light”?). I’ll see if I can find a reference. He can take upon himself a human body as in false apparations (Medjugorje & Garabandal to name a couple), which are counterfeits of true apparitions (Fatima).

I do believe that devil can take posession of human body. But the Medjugorje apparition is not of a human body. That is why only the so called “seers” see this apparition. If the devil, in the way that Pitcharan spoke of, did indeed take on the human form, then others would have seen them as well.

I think the devil is prevented from taking on human form because that prerogative God’s alone.

However, he has possessed people physically but in these possessions that soul is not possessed. How the devil takes over the soul is through a temptation to sin.

That is why the chief exorcist of Spain said that while demonic possessions can be spectacular and exorcisms seem to be magnificent, there is much more to be feared in the ordinary sins we commit and much more wonder in the Mass.

 

[benedictus2]

I appreciate your humility in admitting that you are unsure and turning to readers for an answer. (or is it to muster readers’ support for your view?) Well the answer is simple: If God sent His own Son as a human incarnation, logically He would permit Satan to do so too.
Nope there is nothing logical about that conclusion at all. It does not follow that because God chose to be human who would grant the devil the chance to be human as well.

Have you read this verse? "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it."

Exactly! Angels. Now give me a verse where the devil took on human form.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes I do. Not out of some baseless fantasy but on the basis of meditative readings and inspirations. Have you not read this? For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.(Matt 24:24)

False Christs and false prophets are not devils in human guise. These are human beings who are either demented or are being inspired by the devil. The devil comes as an angel of light (in spritual form) and thereby inspires people to error. And these people that have been inspired to error become the agent of darkness.

 

[Pitcharan]

False Christs and false prophets are not devils in human guise. These are human beings who are either demented or are being inspired by the devil. The devil comes as an angel of light (in spritual form) and thereby inspires people to error. And these people that have been inspired to error become the agent of darkness.

I think we should end our debate at this point since there seems to be no convergence in sight. I enjoyed it and was enriched by it and please do overlook all my remarks that were rude (but no such intention). I am putting my view on hold pending theological review at my diocese and two more leading institutions.

 

[Pitcharan]

Nope there is nothing logical about that conclusion at all. It does not follow that because God chose to be human who would grant the devil the chance to be human as well.

I think you suffer from a mind block.

Exactly! Angels. Now give me a verse where the devil took on human form.

I doubt if it will make any difference, but still I’ll try:
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70)

Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? (Acts 13:9-10)