Double trouble!

[Tyrion]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

 

[Lochias]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

Your logic assumes that it’s somehow in God’s best interest to answer you directly. Why should He?

 

[Regina_Love]

Dude, God fulfilled like over a thousand prophesies in the Old Testament about Jesus. Check it out in the Bible.

 

[ngill09]

A similar quandary: God knows all that shall come to pass. But that seems to contradict God’s own free will, since God cannot do otherwise than to do what he has foreseen He shall do.

The usual resolution is that God, being perfect, would only ever make one choice - to do what is perfectly good. But I think this implies that God cannot make a choice.

 

[St_Francis]

This is how I explained it to my children: God is outside of time; He sees everything in time all at once because He is outside of time.

Quite frankly, I think if you were in conversation with God that you would not be discussing dice… why is it that people cannot understand that God is infinitely “bigger” than we are? It’s like they think He is a toy or a superhero or something. No wonder it is hard for them to believe in Him.

 

[Lochias]

A similar quandary: God knows all that shall come to pass. But that seems to contradict God’s own free will, since God cannot do otherwise than to do what he has foreseen He shall do.

The usual resolution is that God, being perfect, would only ever make one choice - to do what is perfectly good. But I think this implies that God cannot make a choice.

The act of the creation of the world and His choices and shapes for all things implies that He can very much and already has made many choices.

 

[ngill09]

The act of the creation of the world and His choices and shapes for all things implies that He can very much and already has made many choices.

Ah, He has done things but it does not necessarily follow that He could have chosen to do things differently. For example, it is said that He knew that Christ would be sacrificed from before creation. This implies that all of God’s “decisions” up to that point were predestined, and He would have known this. For example, God had no choice but to become upset and cause the Deluge because doing so was necessary to the eventual sacrifice of Christ.

Timelessness might explain this, but the whole idea of making decisions and doing things without time is incoherent anyway.

 

[Joe_5859]

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

I find no logic in your post to refute.

Seriously, though, this isn’t a logical argument. It is just a game that you have arbitrarily created, and you are then demanding God to play with you on your terms or else you will pick up your marbles and go home.

 

[Lochias]

Timelessness might explain this, but the whole idea of making decisions and doing things without time is incoherent anyway.

Apparently not…the early Church fathers understood it well enough to make the distinction. Past a certain point there’s not a lot we can know, but that’s what comes of trying to fit God into our little three-dimensional spheres of thinking.

 

[aemcpa]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

Simple. He would just write down the answers and seal them in an envelope until after you have acted.

In all seriousness, you need to find a hobby.

 

[Joe_5859]

Simple. He would just write down the answers and seal them in an envelope until after you have acted.

In all seriousness, you need to find a hobby.

And the envelope would be placed in a locker whose location and combination the OP could only discover after he rolls the dice and sees the numbers that make up the locker # and combination.

 

[aemcpa]

And the envelope would be placed in a locker whose location and combination the OP could only discover after he rolls the dice and sees the numbers that make up the locker # and combination.

:clapping: :bowdown:

Very well played, sir.

 

[zro_x]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

God can’t do what is logically impossible. In the scenerio you described, accurately proving to you what you would do is logically impossible, so he couldn’t do it. That in no way infringes on his omnipotence, as many theists understand the term. Furthermore, God’s omniscience is not contingent by any means. Let’s say you plan to throw the dice in five minutes. God predicts this to you, so you switch and decide to throw the dice in six minutes. God knew exactly how long you would wait even before he made his initial prediction. God knows every possible timeline for every action he could take.

 

[Aloysium]

Matt 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
The proof is all over; maybe if you start praying, it will become apparent.

 

[Tyrion]

Simple. He would just write down the answers and seal them in an envelope until after you have acted.

And the envelope would be placed in a locker whose location and combination the OP could only discover after he rolls the dice and sees the numbers that make up the locker # and combination.

Not a bad try. But it is still problematic. After all I would not trust God not to modify that envelope in that locker, AFTER I made my toss. Any competent stage magician could perform a trick like that. Sorry… the point is that a revealed prediction allows me to use my free will to make that prediction incorrect. Therefore God’s alleged omniscience cannot be proven. If you wish to accept it on blind faith, that is your prerogative.

And therefore, if God has “omniscience”, then it is contingent upon NOT revealing it… of course anyone can claim omniscience, as long as he refuses to submit to a test. Claims are dime a dozen! (Hey! I happen to know all the phone numbers which existed in the past, exist in the present or will exist in the future… does that make me “omniscient”? … the only minor problem is that I don’t know to whom those phone numbers belong.)

 

[ngill09]

I think this sort of dialectic between you and God presumes too much about the nature of interaction with a timeless being. This may very well be like asking God how much the color green weighs.

 

[Ion]

Simple. He would just write down the answers and seal them in an envelope until after you have acted.

In all seriousness, you need to find a hobby.

Yep, or read The Book …

 

[Lochias]

I think this sort of dialectic between you and God presumes too much about the nature of interaction with a timeless being. This may very well be like asking God how much the color green weighs.

This.

 

[Joe_5859]

Not a bad try. But it is still problematic. After all I would not trust God not to modify that envelope in that locker, AFTER I made my toss. Any competent stage magician could perform a trick like that. Sorry… the point is that a revealed prediction allows me to use my free will to make that prediction incorrect. Therefore God’s alleged omniscience cannot be proven. If you wish to accept it on blind faith, that is your prerogative.

And therefore, if God has “omniscience”, then it is contingent upon NOT revealing it… of course anyone can claim omniscience, as long as he refuses to submit to a test. Claims are dime a dozen! (Hey! I happen to know all the phone numbers which existed in the past, exist in the present or will exist in the future… does that make me “omniscient”? … the only minor problem is that I don’t know to whom those phone numbers belong.)

Omniscience isn’t something that is proven via a parlor trick. But that doesn’t make it unprovable. Lots of things cannot be proven via parlor tricks.

Sorry, there is no “Gotcha!” hypothetical scenario that unravels the Christian philosophical tradition.

 

[snarflemike]

You are asking if God can participate in a logical contradiction, and he cannot. No definition of omnipotent has ever suggested otherwise. I think you need to learn the definitions of the theological terms you are tossing about.