It was brought to the Bishops attention. No official reply was received, nor was it asked for. The last one I witnessed there much more of the body of the infant was immersed into the water. Was that a result of the action? Don’t know.
The old pastor we had when we first started having immersion baptisms was great. He was comfortable holding babies and just kind of put them in starting with the head and with a swooping motion totally immersed everything but the eyes, nose and mouth. There was no doubt after the third swoop that they had been baptised validly. Now, although we call it immersion the priest has baby in the water and pours over the head three times.
I was only addressing “I” versus “we” in the statement “I baptize thee” Baptize is the required word.
The problem isn’t a different formula from the Latin one but a formula that is not in any licit rite at all. If it’s not a Catholic baptismal formula, we have at least some grounds to consider it doubtful.
I was also going to mention this case. Sacramental validity presupposes one single/unified actor accomplishing the act, so in the case mentioned above the splitting of the action between two people (having separate people, one to pour and one to speak) invalidates the sacrament. Saying “we” very well might be valid, but as we know it is not the formula given to Latins as the minimum required for validity (that formula being “I baptize you in the name…”) and it also expresses a bit of confusion over the actor performing the sacrament (“we” being patently false - the priest, not the community, is baptizing), I think we’ve got grounds for doubt.We want to avoid at all costs the situation that developed in a parish in New Brunswick Canada where all the baptisms celebrated over a few years were deemed to be invalid because in his zeal to include the family the priest had had the parents pour the water. Families screamed blue murder when their children had to be baptized again – not, mind you, because all those years they’d been unbaptized but because they didn’t want to accept that the Church has a form & matter policy that they deemed stupid. Some people’s children…!
I thought it was valid and pretty cute.
I had total immersian baptism too, I see nothing wrong with it. And he did say “I baptize you…” not we. LOL! I think baptizing infants is because all are born with the sin nature even before we sin or reach age of accountability. I see no harm in it. Of course once a person reaches the age of accountability they cannot rely totally on their infant baptism, they have to live right and like a Christian etc.
Lets see if I can create some reasoning here. Little children cannot repent: wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy. And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption. Wo unto such. for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment, I speak it boldly; Or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ. For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redempton cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth NOTHING. But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting TRUST IN DEAD WORKS. REMEMBER the first fruits of repentance is baptism. You sin by creating sin, through infant baptism. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world, if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable, God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell. Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell. For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism. How can you pervert the ways of God.LOL! I think baptizing infants is because all are born with the sin nature even before we sin or reach age of accountability. I see no harm in it. Of course once a person reaches the age of accountability they cannot rely totally on their infant baptism, they have to live right and like a Christian etc.
I’m not saying that infants NEED to be baptized, just that I don’t see anything wrong or harmful with the tradition.
I see it as just a nice tradition like a baby shower or something. I said that maybe some do it because kids are born with the sin nature so baptizing them like concecrates them to God or something, not that it’s necessary for infants in order to get to heaven. I believe all babies go to heaven and all small children go to heaven too till they reach the age of accountability somewhere around 12yrs old or so, later for some maybe. Infant baptism is not needed for them to get to heaven but I think it’s a nice tradition of like dedicating the child to God that’s all. It’s because of original sin. Please look this term up in Google or Wikipedia (or better yet, the Catholic Encyclopedia) if you don’t know what it is. Suffice to say, Jesus said being born again (or born from above) through baptism (that is, water and the Spirit) is necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Baptism is a regenerative birth into the spirit: it washes away our personal sins as well as our original sin.
While you’re free to believe what you want, that is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that we don’t know what happens to unbaptized babies, that we leave them to the mercy of God. And it also sets 7 as the age of reason. Anyone who approaches the Church for baptism after the age of 7 is treated as an adult (with obvious adaptations for their level of understanding).I’m not saying that infants NEED to be baptized, just that I don’t see anything wrong or harmful with the tradition.
Infants don’t have original sin, that is something you have miss understood or have been led to believe, with someone trying to teach you some law and you have embraced it as doctrine. Christ paid for this sin of Adam, and children are alive in Christ. You are right that Baptism gives you entrance into the Kingdom, but it can only be performed by those who have priesthood authority, one that is truly called of God. And it is as you have said concerning personal sins. Christ went to John to be baptize of him not to the high priest in Jerusalem, for they were self appointed ministers, having no authority of God whatsoever, but excepted in the eyes of men. John was even challenged “By what authority do you do these things” Christ even put it to them in like manner The Baptism of John whence was it from heaven or of men, or another words did John’s baptism come from God or was it man made. Though Christ was sinless he bowed himself to the law because it was set up by God that even Jesus obeyed. If you still believe that a baby has original sin you do not the Christ, or understand the atonement, or you are a unbeliever and not know it. We are to become like little children because they are sinless before him. This is a sound doctrine you need to pray about, if you are teachable. God will teach you the truth, not by some self appointed minister, who thinks he is right and is not. No more then the High priests at the time tried to teach the truth, for it was not in them. For they hung him on the cross, because they were blind and could not see. And they led their people astray. Blind guides, Christ Called them.
You need to stand for something which is it? Tradition can be scary. It was tradition of the fathers that caused, the people to reject Christ, tradition is not always right and in this case it is not. The reason we are to become like little children is because they are sinless before him and Baptism must follow after repentance, Faith repentance and baptism in that order. Christ was how old when he was baptize? Do you not think he is the example? Sometimes we just go along for the ride, if aunt Mary did it then it is good enough for me.I’m not saying that infants NEED to be baptized, just that I don’t see anything wrong or harmful with the tradition.
Jean we haven’t strayed, we are discussing truth that need to be realized, it’s the truth that makes you free, My Gospel is the truth all those who hear my voice will here the truth. Just because it doesn’t fit into your belief system doesn’t mean it is not truth. When I was a baptist, I believed it, nothing could have changed my belief system, I was invited by my mother to attend the church that she had joined. I came to look and God spoke to me and said “This is the True church” I was shocked, i couldn’t believe it, All my faith was shattered, in realizing that I was wrong all this time, It was hard to except, because I was so focused in being right. I thought all churches were good for man, but I was told by the living GOD, That “This is the true church”. As i study it I was enlighten, a new vision of understanding, burst upon my mind, and joy filled my heart, for faith which I thought I had begin to grow like a seed into new light it became delicious to my sole. That which I thought was the light was like the moon to me in brightness, but now the light is liken unto the sun in brightness. This is how i compare the religions of today, You all have some light in understanding as is the moon has some light, but I come to give you the light of SUN (SON) in brightness. I have been in the light of moon long enough but the light of the Son is greater. I have not come to change you but to add to you. Can you set me aside just because you are afraid that I might change your belief, are you afraid of your own faith. Christ came not to change the law which is was accused of doing in their eyes, but he said I have come to fulfill it. God bless you Jean may the spirit touch your heart of my words.