Doubting Converts

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mathias64
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
PS It is the encounter with Jesus that’s when the Holy Spirit is given. the first encounter, turning from sin to Jesus. It’s the Father that calls one to turn to His Son, the Son gives His Spirit which in turn brings us to the Father. No one goes to the Son unless the Father calls him and no one goes to the Father except through Jesus, His is the Gate.
 
Pope John Paul:ll The personal encounter with Christ is the ultimate influence for social and economic behavior.

Pope Paul VI: the encounter will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Nevertheless this is always insufficient because the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclaimation of the Lord Jesus Christ by WORD. THERE IS NO EVANGELIZATION IF THE NAME, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of
God are not proclaimed."

St Paul (Phil 3:7-ll) I consider all as loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord
(1Col 1;15-29) He is before all things, He is the beginning, that in all things He Himself might be PRE-EMINENT…IN Him were created all things, for l Him, and through Him…" This is what we stand for, all else is secondary. Belief in Jesus as the foundation of our Catholic Church makes the Church built on the Rock. If we do not emphasize this, what do we stand for. We drifted from being Christio- centric. How can one be turned off that never has been turned on?
Oh please. I never advocated anything not Christ centered. What else is the catholic faith?
I also never said an encounter with Christ wasn’t necessary for conversion. I simply said that doesn’t happen for potential converts on YOUR timetable.
And in my experience, it doesn’t have to be the FIRST thing that happens, particularly for enquirers in RCIA. IN fact it rarely is. For most, it’s a growth process. They learn about catholic beliefs and practices and the theology behind them. They experience the Mass and a loving community. They become open. And somewhere along the way, they have their encounter.
I’m afraid with the attitude you seem to have, you’ll chase more people away than you will help usher in, as it sounds like you are “witnessing” to them like a bible basher and expecting them to fall on their knees in rapture the first session. I hope I’m wrong, but that’s how it sounds. Keep it up and don’t be surprised if your enquirer numbers fall away.
 
I am not infallible the teaching body of the church is. I quoted the Popes, and St, Paul not my own opinion. God didn"t, quarantee me infallibility only passive infallibilty as long as I am consistent with Her teachings. I quoted the Popes, and St.Paul. You are entitled to have your own opinion, as I am so lets work together in keeping with her teaching and guidance. God Bless you.
 
Pope John Paul:ll The personal encounter with Christ is the ultimate influence for social and economic behavior.

Pope Paul VI: the encounter will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Nevertheless this is always insufficient because** the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclaimation of the Lord Jesus Christ by WORD. THERE IS NO EVANGELIZATION IF THE NAME, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of
God are not proclaimed."**

St Paul (Phil 3:7-ll) I consider all as loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord
(1Col 1;15-29) He is before all things, He is the beginning, that in all things He Himself might be PRE-EMINENT…IN Him were created all things, for l Him, and through Him…" This is what we stand for, all else is secondary. Belief in Jesus as the foundation of our Catholic Church makes the Church built on the Rock. If we do not emphasize this, what do we stand for. We drifted from being Christio- centric. How can one be turned off that never has been turned on?
This is what is called the whole gospel, and now I know that it also has to include the traditions of the church that Christ left.
 
I am not infallible the teaching body of the church is. I quoted the Popes, and St, Paul not my own opinion. God didn"t, quarantee me infallibility only passive infallibilty as long as I am consistent with Her teachings. I quoted the Popes, and St.Paul. You are entitled to have your own opinion, as I am so lets work together in keeping with her teaching and guidance. God Bless you.
I never questioned Church teaching or the wisdom of Popes or St. Paul.
I questioned your way of going about things.
 
We can be Sacramentalized, but that doesn’t mean we are converted, I have seen too much to verify this truth. The encounter is essential to conversion. A one on one relationship with Jesus, and it can not be passed on like we have assumed. The truths of the faith can be passed on, but not the grace of conversion, that comes from God.
This brings to mind the story of Simon Magus, the sorcerer who was baptized and then turned around and asked Peter if he could have that power that Peter possessed.
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+8&version=DRA

So even the earliest versions of rcia sometimes failed to provide adequate instruction. So there are always tares amongst the wheat.
 
I’m glad you said “an attitude I seem to have,” then there is hope for all of us.
 
I have read all your posts and frankly my head is spinning (in a good way and in the right direction). It’s very hard to keep the opinions separated, though it is gratifying to know that this is a thread that is fruitful and opens your hearts. I am not sure with whom I agree, but I will tell my specific case and you tell me how you feel about it.

As I said before, I attended Catholic mass for 30 years with my family before feeling the call to convert. As one of you wrote, I attended mass, felt the beauty and love, and fell in love with the constancy of My choir family were/are the best friends I have ever had, but it was a happening in another setting that made my mind up. It was so amazing that the rest may not have even counted.

Still a Baptist (officially), I was playing guitar and singing at a 6-week charismatic Life in the Spirit Seminar . It was interesting, but not earth shattering. On week six, as everyone was going forward to be prayed over for receipt of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I sat in the back waiting to play closing music. One by one my friends went forward for prayer, but I hung back because I was not Catholic and did not feel was eligible for that part. I was comfortable with that. As I watched them cry tears of joy and burst into song, I got the strangest feeling of being in a holy place. I remember thinking, “God, if this is real, I want it!”. The next thing I knew (literally) I was up front on my knees with tears in my eyes, and the words of all new praise songs flowing through my head. And I heard a voice from over my right shoulder; it said “Welcome home, Tom”. In the following week I wrote three new songs which we played and sung in future meetings.

As soon as RCIA opened up, I was there. The rest is history. Spookier yet was my first confession, with our old 80 year old pastor whom I knew well. As I entered, he rose and said, “Welcome home, Tom”. What else can I say?

Ok, I realize some of you may not recognize the Charismatic movement as credible, but that’s where I found God and surrendered to him.
Opinions? Comments? Stories?
 
What a beautiful story. God does work in mysterious and beautiful ways. “Welcome home, Tom.”
 
Yes, God works in us in his own way and as we need him to. :yup: Sometimes we are simply blind and deaf because we are all sinners and sometimes God hides himself like the Beloved in the Song of Songs so we will yearn for him all the more.

Such experiences are beautiful, it’s true. The Church calls them “consolations.” They are given as God wishes and for our good. Having said that, they are not the sum of our faith, rather they are merely jolts to our hearts and souls–jump starts, if you will, to remind us that God is God and we are his children.

Consolations are like dessert–it’s nice to have but not essential to our salvation. They should drive us to dig even deeper into God’s truths, to repentance, and participation in the prayer life of the Church, which is, primarily, the Holy Mass, from which we receive God’s saving graces. As you enter the Church you will want to immerse yourself in all the Church has to offer and in service to God and others. This is natural and the right development of our faith.

Now is the time to establish a regular prayer life, if you don’t already have one. I always recommend the Prayer of the Church which is the Liturgy of the Hours, which you can find online here: divineoffice.org/. It’s easy to follow online, but in time you will want to buy a version of it. I recommend “Christian Prayer” which is the LOTH in a single volume. Following the book can be a bit daunting, but there are supplements for it and instructions on how to pray it at the Divine Office website.

I don’t wish to overwhelm you in this post. It’s probably more than you are ready for just now, but I feel you ought to have some basic information to help get you started. I suggest saving this post (not because it’s my post–I’m no one and nothing) but because the information may prove helpful to you as you go through RCIA and enter the Church.

God bless you on your faith journey. 🙂
 
I’m a convert almost two years now. The problem I’ve been running into is the paradox of not wanting to throw my soul away, yet desiring to be separate and completely independent from God. I have little faith in hearing from God through prayer and I don’t want to struggle in what seems an unrewarded fight. I wouldn’t quit the Church outright, but every time I trip up after confession I go a while without either Communion or attending Mass (one or the other). RCIA was great but in another parish, and I don’t want to be a Christian.
 
I’m a convert. I was raised Baptist/evangelical/charismatic.

My conversion came about mostly through reading Church fathers + early Church history + Catholic philosophy and apologetics. By the time I approached a priest to ask to join the Catholic Church, I had sorted through all the theological issues. It was an approach that worked for me. I did my best to sort through all of the major objections to Catholicism and consider the Catholic response to it. My thinking was that I did not want to be Catholic for 20 years and suddenly hear a knock-down argument that destroyed my faith because I hadn’t done my homework well enough in the beginning. Well, in each case, the Catholic position, I found, was more biblical, logical, and historical. The doctrines surrounding Mary came last in my investigation, because they are easiest to understand once you have accepted the existence of Sacred Tradition as a part of the deposit of faith.

My advice? Read up on the resources the others have posted. Get into the nitty-gritty explanations of Catholic doctrine. Be proactive about it. Catholic doctrine is internally consistent. You won’t find any glaring contradictions to bite you. 😉
 
I have little faith in hearing from God through prayer
Are you referring to actually hearing a voice in your head? If so, I wouldn’t “have faith” in hearing from God in that way either. I do hear from God indirectly in the voice of my priest, my bishop, Scripture, the saints, Church teachings, the mysteries of the Rosary, and finally in the voice of my conscience as I make examinations of conscience. But anything “direct” - if that is what you are talking about - isn’t something that should be expected, per se. It can happen but it is, strictly speaking, out of the ordinary.
 
Are you referring to actually hearing a voice in your head? If so, I wouldn’t “have faith” in hearing from God in that way either.
I had a priest tell me as much. Intellectually I know it, but I grew up with the notion of being “led by the Lord.” Thus when my natural melancholic temperament starts getting negative I have to fight it and I say things like “I don’t believe in you, you’re not real, etc.” I know its not really a battle with God but it always seems like one because conscience is supposed to be God’s voice. I probably need to stop making excuses for my attitude and get back on track, but I have no desire to confess nor the right disposition. I don’t even know if I believe in God.
 
Ok, I realize some of you may not recognize the Charismatic movement as credible, but that’s where I found God and surrendered to him.
Opinions? Comments? Stories?
Although I am not active in it at present, I have had great experiences in the Charismatic movement as well. I have no doubt that your conversion experience was divinely inspired, and I was deeply moved to read it.

Regarding Mary, here is a suggestion.

We never hesitate to ask our fellow Christians to pray for us when we are in need. In our humility, we recognize that the prayers of others who are, perhaps, of greater holiness may well be of greater effect.

As those who are in Heaven are certainly of greater holiness, it makes sense to ask them to pray for us as well, following the same logic. We can trust our guardian angels to ensure that those in Heaven hear our requests that they pray for us.

So in this way, we can imagine that the mother of Jesus, the beneficiary of unimaginable grace through over thirty years of being in the presence of our Savior, is an ideal person to ask to pray for us.

We know from the Gospel of John and from Acts that after the death of Jesus, Mary was an active member of the Christian Church. We can imagine how eager the first Christians would have been to run to Mary, in person, with their prayer requests.

After Mary departed this world, then, the custom of asking her to pray for us would have already been solidly in place. The first Christians continued to ask her to pray for us, but now in Heaven.

Without getting lost in doctrinal terminology, I would suggest that the above reasoning gives us much of the essence of the Catholic belief about Mary.

God bless you.

Gabriel
 
I have learned over the years helping with RCIA that the encounter of which you speak can’t be “timed”, and most certinly doesn’t need to come “first”. In fact, it comes later most of the time.

Most enter RCIA as “enquirers”. They want to know what Catholics believe and why.
Many of them are already Christians.
They don’t want to be “witnessed to” in their first few sessions (if ever). The kind of evangelization you describe sounds alot like some other Christian sects do it, and some people find that off-putting. I might have been out the door if someone started preaching to me the way you describe. You can get that when the doorbell rings and someone on your porch is preaching the good news and giving you a pamphlet to join the XYZ church.

The RCIA process typically takes several months…of learning about Catholicism, and hopefully some prayerful formative experiences that help open their hearts to the Holy Spirit. THEN, at some point, their conversion happens. Or doesn’t.
Be careful not to get in the way.
Your revelation is not their revelation, and your timetable is not theirs.
This can be hard on certain people, I think. For someone like me, who had made up their mind and spent maybe 2 years in total researching Catholic faith and doctrine, RCIA seemed interminable. Almost condescending, when you realize you know more than they’re teaching you.
 
This can be hard on certain people, I think. For someone like me, who had made up their mind and spent maybe 2 years in total researching Catholic faith and doctrine, RCIA seemed interminable. Almost condescending, when you realize you know more than they’re teaching you.
My reply was to someone who asserted that RCIA enquirers should be “evangelized to” because accepting Christ must come FIRST in the process.
I have found that NOT to be true…that it is a process that happens for individuals on their own journey and timetable.
You might want to read his/her initial post. The kind of preaching scene described would have turned me right off, and many others I know of.

As to your other point, seems like you either had a somewhat weak RCIA process, or you have an arrogance problem. I’ll assume for your benefit it’s not the latter. The process in my parish is run by very capable and learned catechist, and is supplemented in teaching by priests who are exceptional theologians. We are aware of how fortunate a thing that is.
The process as we do it is not just didactic classes…experiences that are formative are part of it, and so is community building. Most of our enquirers are sorry when the process ends.

Many of our enquirers come to us with substantial knowledge of the Bible and scripture, more so than many of the cradle catholics they will eventually join. Most come to the sessions to learn what catholics believe and why.
In some cases, they struggle, and that’s no bad thing. The ones who struggle are often the deepest converts in the end.
The ones who come in thinking they already know everything…well, they miss alot I find. I guess it’s because they don’t listen or ask questions, or do the deep search that leads others to a wonderful and profound spiritual conversion.

I’m sorry that your RCIA didn’t meet your needs
 
Matthias, thank you for sharing your difficulties and spiritual journey so honestly. I haven’t read the whole thread, so please forgive me if I have misread it. It seems to me that the thread has gone astray from Matthias’ original question: how to cope with difficulties as a convert. By way of background, I am the Catholic convert grandson of a Baptist minister, who sent his son (my dad) to Anglican choir school, much to the shock of his congregation. My dad remained vaguely Anglican.

Firstly, let me share with you a wise saying of Blessed John Henry Newman, who I can recommend as a kind and generous patron: “A thousand difficulties do not make a single doubt.” It seems to me that what you are experiencing in relation to devotion to our Blessed Mother are difficulties rather than doubt. You explained your powerful conversion experience in the charismatic prayer group and with your priest. The Jesuits have another wise saying: “Never go back in desolation on a decision made in consolation.” The sense of consolation that you experienced points to a reality, namely that, often in spite of appearances, the Catholic Church is the “one true fold of the Redeemer” (Blessed JHN again). Now you are experiencing difficulties. If you enjoy reading, it may be worth retracing the development of devotion to Mary in the Church over the centuries and millennia. As Bl. JHN says, to be deeply in history is to cease to be a Protestant. Yet even after we have abandonned the raft of a Protestant communion for the barque of Peter, we can be prone to backwards glances. Our separated brethren say that devotion to Our Blessed Mother is a later accretion and not part of the deposit of Apostolic faith whereas we say that it’s a development of that faith. If the Protestants are right, they would need to say at what point the catholic faith went astray in relation to Mary. Since a strong theology of Mary can be traced back as far as Origen, student of St Polycarp who himself is said to have sat at the feet of St John the Apostle, it seems remarkably early for the faith to go astray, given that the Lord promised us that the Holy Spirit would abide with us and that the gates of hell would never prevail against th Church.

Next, we can look geographically. Of the original five patriachates: Rome, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch only Rome and perhaps Jerusalem remain in communion with the See of Peter, sadly. Yet, in the Greek Orthodox, Coptic and Syrian churches, devotion to the Theotokos remains. The same is true in the ancient Christian churches of Ethiopia and Armenia. It is not just a Catholic thing. The Protestants are, globally, the exception. As St Augustine says: “Secus judicat orbis terrarum.”

So, it seems to me that your difficulty with Mary, which I share, is one of emotion and imagination since there can be little intellectual cause for disagreement with the devotion. Before he died, I made my dad come with me to Walsingham, our national shrine to Our Blessed Mother. His reaction was to say, “I was brought up to think that all this was idolatry, the Whore of Babylon, yet there is something here.” Later, I was brought closer to Mary through the experience of my wife giving birth to our son. During her labour she asked me to pray the Rosary with her, which I did, for hours and hours. It was a powerful experience of maternal care that I associate both with the Holy Spirit and with Mary, as icon of the Spirit.

For more on the link between Our Blessed Mother and the Spirit, you may find it helpful to read Mary by Fr Francois Xavier-Durrwell. I would also recommend First Comes L
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top