Doubting Converts

[MacQ]

My situation may be a bit unique, though I have heard similar things from other converts. I came to the Church already divorced. Attending church alone is difficult anywhere, but I definitely feel more out of place in Mass then I did in my last church, where there were plenty of single moms, gay couples, etc.

My children are 12 and 9 and have had very little religious education, and their father is not on board with them becoming Catholic, so I’m already fighting an uphill battle at home with them, and the parish really doesn’t offer anything to help. If I want them to be part of the church and receive communion, they have to attend years of education first - and it’s not done on Sunday like with other church’s Sunday schools. For my daughter, it would have been and hour and 1/2 every week after school, with strict attendance requirements (tough when there is split custody). That was a lot for her to fit into a week jammed with homework and other activities - made worse by the fact that her Dad was discouraging it. It was also too much of a culture shock for her to be put in CCD, studying the commandments and learning prayers. It’s rigorous - I want her to first learn about Jesus and his love and mercy before being overwhelmed with ‘Catholic guilt’.

I understand that kids need to be well-catechized, but my problem is that there is nothing in place aimed at kids their age that might ‘hook’ them - to pull them in so that they want to choose to be educated in the faith. Maybe because the parish has a school, there is nothing else at all offered for the kids. No youth group, no outings, no other way for them to get to know our Lord outside that formal structure, which just seems very dry and overwhelming. I’m starting to understand why one of my Catholic friends is sending her sons to Sunday School at the Episcopal Church. (She stopped bringing the boys to Mass after a priest from another parish decided to read from the pulpit about the sex abuse scandal and she found herself in the parking lot crying because she had to explain to two young boys what the priest was talking about.)

I have another friend who is also divorced who was raised Catholic and she bent over backwards, and even took her ex-husband to court to allow the children to attend CCD and then, when there was a problem with scheduling, the parish would not work with her at all. They said she had to pray about it and decide what was most important for her children. She and the kids no longer attend church.

In general, I think the hardest part is the loss of community that there tends to be in Protestant churches - with bible studies, coffee hours, fundraisers, holiday gatherings, get-togethers at peoples homes, etc. When you are part of a Protestant congregation, it becomes a bit like family - you feel welcome. When you come into a Catholic Church, there is NONE of that. You meet a few people through RCIA and maybe someone calls you once to welcome you, but for the most part people are out the door as soon as the service has ended (1/4 of the congregation is out before the service has ended). There’s no opportunity to get to know anyone.

When you become Catholic, you are on your own, just you and Christ. And that’s good, but when you need spiritual direction, the priests are way too busy to give you much of their time.

I also think that there has been some reluctance/inability on the part of church leadership sometimes to take full responsibility for the sex abuse scandal - that bothers me a little. (Not enough to walk away from the Eucharist, but it’s bothersome).

Does that give you some idea? There are a few more things, but they are more general things that probably can’t be addressed adequately at the parish level, and it’s way past my bed time.

Yes, that gives me an idea of your experience…particularly in the sense that your parish is well, shall we say… “wanting”. It is almost the opposite of mine…it’s a very large parish…a vibrant place where there’s alot of community, something for everyone’s interest to get involved in…a rich (and loving CCE program), lots of youth activities, bible studies etc.
Just saying that to let you know that all Catholic parishes aren’t like yours, and perhaps there’s one around that would better suit you.
Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.
m

 

[Mathias64]

Dear DAML72.

I tend to agree with you. Fellowship is not our strong suit. We have a yearly bazaar to raise money, and a few pancake breakfasts, but that’s it. Everything is in the genre of “you are here for mass anyway, so you may as well check this out - if it’s not too much trouble. Of course we have CCE and a youth proghram, and RCIA, but then these are actually “requirements” like Sunday School in the Baptist church. Past these official programs there is klittle to be talk about. While the local non-Catholic churches often join together in community outreach programs, the Catholic parishes in my area sadly do not participate. Even worse, there are at least 6 parishes with a 15 mile radius of my house, and I have never heard of a single joint fellowship venture between any of them. The exception is the A.C.T.S. program, which readily recruits team members and participants from other parishes. I sure wish the A.C.T.S. attitude would spread to the parishes as a whole.

 

[MacQ]

Dear DAML72.

I tend to agree with you. Fellowship is not our strong suit. We have a yearly bazaar to raise money, and a few pancake breakfasts, but that’s it. Everything is in the genre of “you are here for mass anyway, so you may as well check this out - if it’s not too much trouble. Of course we have CCE and a youth [proghram, and RCIA, but then these are actually “requirements” like Sunday School in the Baptist church. Past these official programs there is klittle to be talk about. While the local non-Catholic churches often join together in community outreach programs, the Catholic parishes in my area sadly do not participate. Even worse, there are at least 6 parishes with a 15 mile radius of my house, and I have never heard of a single joint fellowship venture between any of them. The exception is the A.C.T.S. program, which readily recruits team members and participants from other parishes. I sure wish the A.C.T.S. attitude would spread to the parishes as a whole.

You have no adult education program?
No social services program?
No St Annes, Knights, St Monica’s…no Habitat participation? No missions groups?
I can assure you there ARE parishes with your radius who DO have cooperative ventures.
You may not be aware of them if you aren’t involved in them.
Most things are started up by parishioners. Maybe that’s something you could look into doing.
[/quote]

 

[charitydawn725]

Doubt Problems for Coverts
This is for my fellow converts. There are obviously many paths one might take in deciding to adopt the Catholic faith. Considering the fact that not all RCIA programs are created equal, did any of you still have significant doubts about parts of the faith after your conversion? Case and point, the RCIA program I attended was very poor. I had 2 instructors, a husband and wife team (who are now divorced, go figure). All they taught me was how to get through mass without making a fool out myself, something I had learned on my own 25 years before. As a result, I entered the faith with a rubber stamp. Even though I had been attending mass for 30 years with my wife (a cradle Catholic), we talked very little about it. I came to my decision through a different door, I believe, than most. I actually played and sung in the choir for 3 years before deciding to convert. I am sure that is unusual in most parishes. At that same time, I was playing and singing in the parish Charismatic Prayer & Praise group, still as a Baptist. When I decided to convert, my music family WAS my FAMILY. My wife was pleased, but my kids sure didn’t care. My choir mates lifted me up and carried me right through it. IN fact it was from oine of them that I took my first communion.
Our parish does not have strong Marian devotion, except for our Hispanic community. So in a weird way you might say that the Anglos leave the Mary stuff to the Hispanics. Sad I know, no insults intended. Not saying it is right, only that it is. As a result, I had very little education as to Mary’s roll in things. And - I had a very hard time reconciling her true place in the Church. It took me nearly six years to come to grips with it, and to this day, I am very wary of the subject. My first confessor, and 80 year old priest who had done about all a priest can do, told me not to worry, that truth be told, I am was among many with this same issue. He said to just keep praying, praising and worshipping, and God will reconcile it all with me in his time. It took six years before I was finally able to reach out to Mary.
I have doubts about other things too, but Mary was my biggest challenge.
Did any of you have such an issue? Not just with Mary, but with anything?
Views and experiences please?

I’m about to start the conversion process, and while some beliefs, such as the real presence, were easy to accept, the hardest two for me have been papal infallibility and Marian devotion. The Pope is human and humans say errant things, so it followed for me that the Pope must say errant things. A friend explained to me that although the Pope is human and he makes mistakes and says things that may not be correct, the infallibility comes from the idea that any new doctrine he “creates” is infallible. The doctrine must also not contradict biblical teaching and goes through a long line of church leaders before it can become an official doctrine, similar to how the president can’t pass a law until it has been reviewed by supreme court judges. From where I stood, this helped a lot in understanding the infallibility doctrine. The Pope isn’t just a man who can say whatever he wants to say and it’s automatically law for the Catholic Church.

Marian devotion is the hardest thing for me to accept, also, Mathias64. Praying through Mary and the Saints was never hard for me, as I consider it to be just like asking a friend, parent, or other person to go to God for you and intercede and pray for you. On the other hand, the devotion is hard. Growing up protestant, we focused a lot on “that moment” where we “accepted Jesus into our hearts” and we’re saved. I’ve read Catholic prayers of devotion to Mary and the lines in those prayers are almost exactly the same as lines you would hear in a typical protestant prayer to Jesus. Things such as “knowing Mary will always be with you” and “giving all of yourself to Mary.” I still have a really hard time with this one and it feels like the last thing stopping me from converting. I’d love to hear any converts’ experiences with coming to accept this devotion!

 

[MacQ]

I’m about to start the conversion process, and while some beliefs, such as the real presence, were easy to accept, the hardest two for me have been papal infallibility and Marian devotion. The Pope is human and humans say errant things, so it followed for me that the Pope must say errant things. A friend explained to me that although the Pope is human and he makes mistakes and says things that may not be correct, the infallibility comes from the idea that any new doctrine he “creates” is infallible. The doctrine must also not contradict biblical teaching and goes through a long line of church leaders before it can become an official doctrine, similar to how the president can’t pass a law until it has been reviewed by supreme court judges. From where I stood, this helped a lot in understanding the infallibility doctrine. The Pope isn’t just a man who can say whatever he wants to say and it’s automatically law for the Catholic Church.

Marian devotion is the hardest thing for me to accept, also, Mathias64. Praying through Mary and the Saints was never hard for me, as I consider it to be just like asking a friend, parent, or other person to go to God for you and intercede and pray for you. On the other hand, the devotion is hard. Growing up protestant, we focused a lot on “that moment” where we “accepted Jesus into our hearts” and we’re saved. I’ve read Catholic prayers of devotion to Mary and the lines in those prayers are almost exactly the same as lines you would hear in a typical protestant prayer to Jesus. Things such as “knowing Mary will always be with you” and “giving all of yourself to Mary.” I still have a really hard time with this one and it feels like the last thing stopping me from converting. I’d love to hear any converts’ experiences with coming to accept this devotion!

I’m glad someone has explained that the Pope is not “infallible” except when he makes a formal ruling ex cathedra (from the chair) with the counsel of bishops on a matter of faith and morals. Such rulings have only happened about 3 times in church history.

As for marian devotion, you seem already to have exactly the right idea, and nothing else is required to be fully Catholic.
We should revere her as Jesus undoubtedly did, and yes, consider her a friend in heaven. There is no requirement to do anything else. Remember always that everything about Mary points to Jesus…so if you find a particular prayer that goes overboard, just don’t engage in it. I assume you don’t find the “Hail Mary” prayer a problem (?)

It is true that many catholics did go overboard (and probably still do)…which is why Vatican II addressed that very issue. What the Council said (in part) was that “our veneration of Mary should be fostered and religiously observed.” …But ALSO that we should “abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.”

Hope this is helpful.
Welcome to the journey!

 

[charitydawn725]

Doubt Problems for Coverts
This is for my fellow converts. There are obviously many paths one might take in deciding to adopt the Catholic faith. Considering the fact that not all RCIA programs are created equal, did any of you still have significant doubts about parts of the faith after your conversion? Case and point, the RCIA program I attended was very poor. I had 2 instructors, a husband and wife team (who are now divorced, go figure). All they taught me was how to get through mass without making a fool out myself, something I had learned on my own 25 years before. As a result, I entered the faith with a rubber stamp. Even though I had been attending mass for 30 years with my wife (a cradle Catholic), we talked very little about it. I came to my decision through a different door, I believe, than most. I actually played and sung in the choir for 3 years before deciding to convert. I am sure that is unusual in most parishes. At that same time, I was playing and singing in the parish Charismatic Prayer & Praise group, still as a Baptist. When I decided to convert, my music family WAS my FAMILY. My wife was pleased, but my kids sure didn’t care. My choir mates lifted me up and carried me right through it. IN fact it was from oine of them that I took my first communion.
Our parish does not have strong Marian devotion, except for our Hispanic community. So in a weird way you might say that the Anglos leave the Mary stuff to the Hispanics. Sad I know, no insults intended. Not saying it is right, only that it is. As a result, I had very little education as to Mary’s roll in things. And - I had a very hard time reconciling her true place in the Church. It took me nearly six years to come to grips with it, and to this day, I am very wary of the subject. My first confessor, and 80 year old priest who had done about all a priest can do, told me not to worry, that truth be told, I am was among many with this same issue. He said to just keep praying, praising and worshipping, and God will reconcile it all with me in his time. It took six years before I was finally able to reach out to Mary.
I have doubts about other things too, but Mary was my biggest challenge.
Did any of you have such an issue? Not just with Mary, but with anything?
Views and experiences please?

I’m glad someone has explained that the Pope is not “infallible” except when he makes a formal ruling ex cathedra (from the chair) with the counsel of bishops on a matter of faith and morals. Such rulings have only happened about 3 times in church history.

As for marian devotion, you seem already to have exactly the right idea, and nothing else is required to be fully Catholic.
We should revere her as Jesus undoubtedly did, and yes, consider her a friend in heaven. There is no requirement to do anything else. Remember always that everything about Mary points to Jesus…so if you find a particular prayer that goes overboard, just don’t engage in it. I assume you don’t find the “Hail Mary” prayer a problem (?)

It is true that many catholics did go overboard (and probably still do)…which is why Vatican II addressed that very issue. What the Council said (in part) was that “our veneration of Mary should be fostered and religiously observed.” …But ALSO that we should “abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.”

Hope this is helpful.
Welcome to the journey!

As far as the ex cathedra rulings go, what types of rulings has the Pope issued? On the subject of Marian devotion, that was very helpful. Many of the “over the top” prayers I found were on websites where people consecrate themselves to her immaculate heart. I don’t know a lot about it, but it sounds very similar to the Idea of Protestants “accepting Jesus into their heart” which kind of confused me. Your explanation of official Catholic teaching makes it more clear, however. I assume that certain people just go a little overboard and stray from the official stance of the church?

 

[Della]

As far as the ex cathedra rulings go, what types of rulings has the Pope issued? On the subject of Marian devotion, that was very helpful. Many of the “over the top” prayers I found were on websites where people consecrate themselves to her immaculate heart. I don’t know a lot about it, but it sounds very similar to the Idea of Protestants “accepting Jesus into their heart” which kind of confused me. Your explanation of official Catholic teaching makes it more clear, however. I assume that certain people just go a little overboard and stray from the official stance of the church?

Well, devotions are the language of love, which changes in each generation. The kind of things a fella would say to a girl in the 1800’s or even early 20th century are very different from the kind of things he would say today. When reading some of these older devotional prayers we need to keep that in mind. Also the fact that words change their meaning over time, as well. For instance, the terms gentleman and lady once referred exclusively to those of “gentle” birth–those born of the aristocracy. Those words changed from that definition to one who acts like a gentleman or lady and devolved even farther until now they simply mean men and women and are used to indicate which restroom one goes to.

Devotions also change over time. What once excited faith and prayer in one time/area now means very little to those in modern times. Each generation seeks its own expressions of love, honor, respect, etc. Some devotions remain timeless, such as the Rosary, but then it’s a biblical prayer. Private devotions may be biblically based, but they remain private. The public prayer of the Church, her liturgies, remains the same, although newer translations are made to keep up with the times.

Many who came from Protestant backgrounds in which Mary was little spoken of or appreciated may not understand the love and devotion cradle Catholics may have for her. But it’s a matter of letting Mary become for each of us what she wants to be in our lives. This means opening our hearts and minds to her. There is no danger in doing so because whenever Mary attracts someone to herself she always directs him on to her son. I recommended Doctor of the Church St. Alphonsus de Liguori’s “The Glories of Mary” to our OP, Mathias64, and I recommend it to all who want to understand the Catholic reasons for devotion to Mary.

 

[MacQ]

As far as the ex cathedra rulings go, what types of rulings has the Pope issued? On the subject of Marian devotion, that was very helpful. Many of the “over the top” prayers I found were on websites where people consecrate themselves to her immaculate heart. I don’t know a lot about it, but it sounds very similar to the Idea of Protestants “accepting Jesus into their heart” which kind of confused me. Your explanation of official Catholic teaching makes it more clear, however. I assume that certain people just go a little overboard and stray from the official stance of the church?

As to which papal statements have been made that are considered infallible:
There are some opinions, but there is no official “list” (regardless of what you may read).
In fact, there may be none!
This is how I think about it: The doctrine is there so that IF there were to arise an issue of faith or morals, that wasn’t already part of Church teaching, then the Pope (importantly, in consultation with Bishops)…the magisterium…could make a formal ruling and announce it as such, which we would accept as having been guided by the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would do so.

As to your other point: You are so right…some people, faithful Catholics tho they may consider themselves, DO go overboard sometimes,and DO stray from the official stance of the Church. I assume that mostly happens simply because they misunderstood or weren’t taught well.

I like very much what DELLA replied to you about Mary as well.