Doubting demonic possession

[PaulfromIowa]

As I understand this topic, Catholicism requires belief in demons and demonic possession, and that one should take the new testament description of such events as true.

Yes, the Bible seems clear that demons and demonic possession are real.

But if real, where are the incontrovertible videos from the current day medical profession? Please don’t tell me the Catholic church will not release such videos. If protocol was followed, the medical profession had access to the afflicted patient first, right?

The Church would never make or release such a video. A physician could only release video with the patient’s permission. A physician would not be sure of demonic possession. He could only suspect.

 

[Bookcat]

As I said in a prior post…the best way is to experience it yourself…Seems to me, experiencing is believing…so I will repost my question to you in post #5:

If you are such a skeptic or non-believer…have you considered asking the devil to actually possess you…to prove it? (to yourself)

Or are you scared? (or maybe, there is a little tinge of it may be true…and you do not want to admit it, ah???)

No that would* not* be something to do!

 

[GLam8833]

I believe demonic possession is real,
just look up exorcism at Amazon.com!!
I, myself have read “Demons, Deliverance,
Discernment: Separating Fact from Fict-
ion about the Spirit World” by Fr. Mike
Driscoll. The Church’s History of excorcism
and the experience of Other Faiths in
exorcising the demonic is explained and
cases evaluated in this book. Altho the
Author is NOT an exorcist, he is working
at a Catholic mental institution as a
counselor and is well versed in insane
behaviors as opposed to demonic posse-
ssion. He interviews MANY exorcists in
the Catholic Church both of the Narrow
and Wide approach to the Rite of Exorcism
that is officially approved by the RCC.
The Three conditions necessary for the case
to be considered are:

1. Knowledge of a known language which the
   possessed person cannot possibly know.
2. Extra human strength.
3. Knowledge of events and details about
   the persons doing the exorcism that the
   possessed person cannot know.
   Some add a fourth criteria: adverse reaction
   to sacramental(crucifixes, holy water).

I, myself have experienced demonic OPPRESSION
and INFESTATION. I find that keeping close to
the Lord by daily mass and prayer helps free one-
self from the devil(See James 4:7) Also using
holy water and sacramental blessed by a holy
priest effective also.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

pablope;14400281:

Is it really that hard to figure out? If a clinical review by psychiatrists and/or neurologists is required prior to resorting to exorcism, the medical profession should have the evidence. The youtube videos are simply examples of that from a different

condition.

This does not mean you or I are ENTITLED to that information. Would you allow me your physical / mental health, addiction, sexual, good works, bad works, bank account, legal histories?
I think not.

 

[Crusaderbear]

It’s not entertainment. Hence no videos.

 

[codesmith]

Thanks to all for your replies.

As I said in my initiating post for this thread…

It seems to me that a real video of true possession – a case that confounded and in fact terrified medical professionals – would cause the conversion of more than a few skeptics.

The collective options here seem to be…

• No such video evidence available but demonic possession does occur.
• Video evidence available (as some assume), but will not be released.
• Invoke Satan so as to be possessed and get all the evidence you need.
• God and/or Satan does not want people to be converted or otherwise come to belief by such clear proof.
• No such video evidence available because there is no such thing as demonic possession (my preference)

It would indeed convert a few people to actually witness such things as this…

ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/BEGONESA.htm

But I cannot believe. Thanks for your patience in this matter and with my frustration.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

And an exorcist once said,

Just because you dont believe in evil, that wont protect you if evil does not want to leave you alone.

Please disregard any suggestions to invoke that you do not believe in. That suggestion is incredibly stupid. Would you throw yourself under a bus if it was suggested?

God bless you and keep you, on your journey home.

Peace

 

[Roseeurekacross]

As I said in a prior post…the best way is to experience it yourself…Seems to me, experiencing is believing…so I will repost my question to you in post #5:

If you are such a skeptic or non-believer…have you considered asking the devil to actually possess you…to prove it? (to yourself)

Or are you scared? (or maybe, there is a little tinge of it may be true…and you do not want to admit it, ah???)

Incredibly irresponsible and stupid suggestion. I will pray for your soul.

Peace

 

[Mintaka]

Codesmith -

You don’t have to “believe” us. But you really should believe Jesus Christ, Who spent a great deal of time helping those demonically possessed, and training the Apostles and disciples to cast out demons. You might also take a look at Acts, where the Apostles and St. Paul are shown doing it quite a lot.

If you believe that Jesus is God, then obviously He is omniscient and knew what He was doing. He would certainly know more about the world than you or I. If you don’t believe Him, why would you think we are more credible?

 

[Bookcat]

While such realities played a part in my turning to God - and my entering the Catholic Church - such is not the focus.

It is very important rather to come to know Jesus of Nazareth -the Christ and Son of God.

In him is* true life*.

It is in him name that demons are exorcised by his Church. But more importantly it is in him and thus in his Church that one finds truth, and love, and true life.

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

“Faith opens us to knowing and welcoming the real identity of Jesus, his newness and oneness, his word, as a source of life, in order to live a personal relationship with him. Knowledge of the faith grows, it grows with the desire to find the way and in the end it is a gift of God who does not reveal himself to us as an abstract thing without a face or a name, because faith responds to a Person who wants to enter into a relationship of deep love with us and to involve our whole life.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Sunday, 14 August 2011)

 

[codesmith]

I believe demonic possession is real,
just look up exorcism at Amazon.com!!
I, myself have read “Demons, Deliverance,
Discernment: Separating Fact from Fict-
ion about the Spirit World” by Fr. Mike
Driscoll.

Thank you GLam, for the book recommendation. I have purchased it and will read.

And thanks again to everyone else here. I am a skeptic, but somehow cannot kill that longing inside me that Christianity is true. Which is why I start these rather intense topics.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1022604

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I think if ISIS could convince us they don’t exist that might to be to their advantage, no?

 

[Autumn_Smoke]

I believe in demon possession because of the scripture and because of accounts I have read and have seen on TV documentaries.

But then the truth of all of this was confirmed to me when I went to a healing mass several years ago. The priest was someone who had a reputation as having the gift of healing. As part of the service, people came forward who were in need of healing and were wanting to be prayed over.

A woman was brought forward. She was being physically brought forward by 6 men who were having a hard time holding on to her. As she walked by the priest she began growling.
I have never heard anything like it before. It did not sound human and was definitely not feminine.

Did I believe in it before? Yes…do I believe in it now? MOST DEFINITELY. It was not a show.

 

[Tigre]

You aren’t going to get a satisfactory response on pre-exorcism diagnostic videos. Even if such videos existed, most of it would look like psychosis and any supernatural phenomena could, in theory, be hoaxed (levitating, etc.). If such videos existed I strongly suspect they would be public at this time, and subject to debate as to hoax versus authenticity. Just like other miracles verified by the church.

As an aside, you might get more mileage out of the literature on near death experience medical studies. Check out Father Spitzer’s analysis of the literature (YouTube, chapter 5 from his book "The Soul’s Upward Yearning). Might also check out M. Scott Peck (a psychiatrist) and his book “The People of The Lie” for a more medical perspective on evil and possession.

Please do not ask to be personally possessed. From a Catholic perspective, if you aren’t baptized, he already has a firm enough grip on you. That nagging thought on the other hand that all of this might be true is the mustard seed of numerous adult conversions. The path you are on is well-trodden.

 

[codesmith]

You aren’t going to get a satisfactory response on pre-exorcism diagnostic videos. Even if such videos existed, most of it would look like psychosis and any supernatural phenomena could, in theory, be hoaxed (levitating, etc.).

The following thoughts occurred to me last night.

If I were the devil – pure evil and intent on bringing about the harassment and eternal demise of man, being “the father of lies” – I would, to borrow a phase from an old X-Files episode, “deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate”.

I would limit my appearances and my methods in such a way that those observing them were frightened and/or terrified, but so unverifiable to those not present, that the witnesses of the event would appear gullible, stupid, or insane. I certainly would not, for example, put on a show for someone’s smart phone camera.

Of course that does not prove the devil exists. But if true, it is frustrating (amazing?) that God would allow such on mere mortals. Are our own self-made problems, natural disasters, cancers, and diseases not more than enough to bear?

 

[Tigre]

The following thoughts occurred to me last night.

If I were the devil – pure evil and intent on bringing about the harassment and eternal demise of man, being “the father of lies” – I would, to borrow a phase from an old X-Files episode, “deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate”.

I would limit my appearances and my methods in such a way that those observing them were frightened and/or terrified, but so unverifiable to those not present, that the witnesses of the event would appear gullible, stupid, or insane. I certainly would not, for example, put on a show for someone’s smart phone camera.

Of course that does not prove the devil exists. But if true, it is frustrating (amazing?) that God would allow such on mere mortals. Are our own self-made problems, natural disasters, cancers, and diseases not more than enough to bear?

“The greatest trick the devil ever pulled” and all. The last thing he wants is more believers.

True oppression/possession is incredibly uncommon, as I’m sure you’ve discovered from your research. As I read your post it looks like your underlying issue may be you cannot shake the thought that all of this might be real (Christianity that is), but, if real, it is too good to be true. It is a “wish fulfillment” response to make sense of the otherwise senseless suffering you list. Focusing on implausibility of miracle stories or possession is one of the defenses presented by “reason” (violation of physics really) to thwart the Kantian leap to faith.

The answer to your last question is they absolutely are too much for us to bear, but He is the reason for our hope. We are only here for a short while. A larger cosmic and eschatological perspective helps put these temporal sufferings in their proper context. If this is a test for the afterlife, suffering in life, even demonically caused suffering, is not so tough to reconcile with an ultimately all-loving God.

Like I said, your path is well worn. Welcome to the trail.

 

[codesmith]

“The answer to your last question is they absolutely are too much for us to bear, but He is the reason for our hope.”

I acknowledge we are deviating from the original subject a bit here…

Yes, it is too much to bear. We could all recite the long litany of examples similar to the ones I mentioned. We could even google images of tragic birth defects. There is indeed no limit to what we must endure. Seeking, grasping for a thread of faith, some of us will even look for clear evidence of demonic possession as a sign that Christ and his message is in fact true, since such events were described so often in the gospels.

Instead, what tangible evidence do we have, if you could even call it that? Weeping statues, stories of the incorruptible bodies of saints, Eucharistic miracles, stories of saints levitating, Lourdes cures, Marian apparitions, etc.

I don’t disagree that those are proof enough for some people. But are those scraps of evidence in any way in balance to the troubles of this world? I still think sometimes it is all wishful thinking.

If anything, it is my family, and the loss of loved ones in the past that is my only hope that it might all be true.

 

[Bookcat]

codesmith

A couple of other things for ya.

See Jimmy Akin on the problem of evil.

and also read a few chapters in the book

“Crossing the Threshold of Hope” by St. Pope John Paul II

Why is there so much evil in the world - and two chapters after that one.

 

[Tigre]

Instead, what tangible evidence do we have, if you could even call it that? Weeping statues, stories of the incorruptible bodies of saints, Eucharistic miracles, stories of saints levitating, Lourdes cures, Marian apparitions, etc.

I really should have attributed the leap to faith to Soren above. Point being, no amount of evidence will suffice. Ever. See Hebrews 11:1. And any tangible or intangible evidence will always be subject to doubt. Always. Are the Bible accounts or modern miracle or possession accounts credible? Were the apostles caught up in a collective Messiah delusion? Are personal experiences, even my own religious experiences, hallucinations? You get the picture.

Ultimately you will arrive at a leaping point. There will be many, but you might only recognize them in retrospect. At each point you can always find a reason not to jump. But if you do jump, one day you will see that was a grace and not your doing aside from your cooperation with it. It may start as simple intellectual assent. It may be a profound experience. It is different for us all. But faith is not arrived at by evidence alone. The inquiry in this thread is your obstacle at this juncture. But we are way off topic at this point…

 

[in_servitude]

I really should have attributed the leap to faith to Soren above. Point being, no amount of evidence will suffice. Ever. See Hebrews 11:1. And any tangible or intangible evidence will always be subject to doubt. Always. Are the Bible accounts or modern miracle or possession accounts credible? Were the apostles caught up in a collective Messiah delusion? Are personal experiences, even my own religious experiences, hallucinations? You get the picture.

Ultimately you will arrive at a leaping point. There will be many, but you might only recognize them in retrospect. At each point you can always find a reason not to jump. But if you do jump, one day you will see that was a grace and not your doing aside from your cooperation with it. It may start as simple intellectual assent. It may be a profound experience. It is different for us all. But faith is not arrived at by evidence alone. The inquiry in this thread is your obstacle at this juncture. But we are way off topic at this point…

Tigre - I agree with you. Here is a current day example of what I think you’re saying.

youtube.com/watch?v=9jV0G1-eMzo

This is a video of a person arguing that SpaceX actually did NOT land their rocket on a barge. There is a large quantity of evidence that they did land it, but the maker of this video takes advantage of a corrupted video artifact to make (what seems to be) an honest argument that SpaceX didn’t land their rocket. This would require a conspiracy of many people, and the argument is ludicrous. But, here you have an actual video of a simple physical reality - and even that can be considered suspect.

The problem with demonic possession is that we are talking about something that is far removed from a “simple physical reality.”