Doubts about Hell, suffering. Please Help!

[john_doran]

eptatorata:

I have made no claim about determinism.

cool. then my original point holds: you punish the child for freely choosing to do the wrong thing.

 

[eptatorata]

john doran:

cool. then my original point holds: you punish the child for freely choosing to do the wrong thing.

That’s your last word?

 

[john_doran]

eptatorata:

That’s your last word?

for now, anyway.

 

[AnAtheist]

john doran:

i’m not sure i understand; are you suggesting that the eternally present conditions could cause an effect, and then cause a different effect again at some later date, and so on? if so, then that doesn’t actually work, since, during the period before the subsequent effects came into existence, the conditions couldn’t have been necessary and sufficient, since, if they were, then the effect would also have existed.

Big Bangs may be caused periodic, perhaps permanently in some higher continuum, by the very same effect. The universes created in those bangs are not necessarily identical. They may have evolved differently, even with different physical laws. We just live in a pocket of that continuum, with the right conditions to allow the existence of us. I see no problem here.

the only way to motivate your suggestion would be if the conditions themselves only became sufficient and/or necessary at some point in time. but then, what would cause that change in the conditions? and was that cause eternally present? if so, then the change would have been eternal, also. if not, then what caused it?

and so on…

Yes, and so on. What caused God to change the settings? He himself? Or some Supergod? Why can’t the universe be an uncaused effect? …and so on…

 

[AnAtheist]

john doran:

out of curiosity, how do you think we will we know? how will we know? facts about that period of the life of the universe are, after all, emprically unverifiable…

We can reconstruct the history of the universe to the last second after the big bang, by observing the background radiation, the matter distribution, the behaviour of subatomic particles and by using our brains.
With refined theories (some sort of GUT) we may be able to reconstruct it down to the Planck time. Below that, it seems, conclusions are unvalid anyway, as a “time quantum” (in a quantified theory of gravitation) would be of that magnitude (~ 10^-43 s), hence there are no shorter time fractions.
We know a great deal more about this universe now, than 2000a ago, and we will know another great deal more in 2000a from now.

 

[oriel36]

Mijoy2:

oriel36:

If what you are saying is that I have a grip on the Faith, but you have a deeper understanding, I ask you to help me along. I’m sure you know how to private message.

I Thank you all. I wish to be further enlightened.

As you are an engineer,approach the text of Genesis with the same eye for precision as you would any technical construction.I can list the various things to look out for without unduly influencing the approach you may take however we are simply dealing with the technical format of the narrative from the creation of Adam to the first drop of rain of Noah’s flood as a single self-contained mathematical construction and setting the Spiritual message aside.

Ubove all else we appreceate how the Hebrew scribes dealt with the hugh generalisations of creation ,made them tighter through the chronology of the genealogies and then reduced the time conceptions to normalised conceptions as seen in the life of Moses.Let us just say it is for that Christian who wishes to come to a deeper appreceation of the sacred text than contemporary gross mishandling.

Here is a list of some of the things I enjoyed with no emphasis on any order of merit or priority,just basically as they come into my head through familiarity.

1 The author introduces the formula in Gen1 " evening came and morning followed the nth day" linking one day of creation to the next day which overlaps into the genealogy of Gen 5

2 Adam of the 6th day meshes in with his lifespan in the link in the genealogical chain of Gen 5 ending with the first drop of rain of Noah’s flood.

3 Based on 7 day weeks,the time elapsed from Adam to Noah is 86 400 weeks which mirrior the amount of seconds in a day *

4 The author lists the lifespan of Enoch as 365 years in Gen 5

5 The fraction of weeks designated by Gen 7 v11 is 6.48 weeks is a precise construction in itself with a wonderful twist.

6 It stops the narrative from swamping the Spiritual message although contemporary airheads imagine it is a valid basis for natural or religious contention.

7 It is an excellent way to appreceate the highly developed Christian facets

Look Miljoy2, this is a personal journey and I am meeting you going in the other direction.After appreceating the wisdom of the Hebrew authors of Genesis it does not mean that I have a right to say any more or less than anyone on the matter but I will say that I see the Genesis jewel tarnished by gross manipulation from fundamentalists and empiricists.

It is my hope that you find a better way of presenting the intricacies which the Hebrew authors left for us to appreceate,again by preventing the narrative from swamping the Spiritual message in the text.

For my part,I have to turn away from a decade and a half of work and return to my Christian roots,for although there are so many lively things to do and discuss because of my poor manner of expression I may as well be speaking a foreign language.Perhaps I will learn the value of simple expression and where better to learn that than among my community.

There is just one posting I need to do because it is important.

 

[john_doran]

AnAtheist:

Big Bangs may be caused periodic, perhaps permanently in some higher continuum, by the very same effect. The universes created in those bangs are not necessarily identical. They may have evolved differently, even with different physical laws. We just live in a pocket of that continuum, with the right conditions to allow the existence of us. I see no problem here.

i don’t understand.

AnAtheist:

Yes, and so on. What caused God to change the settings? He himself? Or some Supergod?

but that’s the point - there aren’t any settings. there is just the act of the first uncaused cause.

AnAtheist:

Why can’t the universe be an uncaused effect? …and so on…

because the universe is contingent and necessarily began to exist.

 

[john_doran]

AnAtheist:

We can reconstruct the history of the universe to the last second after the big bang, by observing the background radiation, the matter distribution, the behaviour of subatomic particles and by using our brains.
With refined theories (some sort of GUT) we may be able to reconstruct it down to the Planck time. Below that, it seems, conclusions are unvalid anyway, as a “time quantum” (in a quantified theory of gravitation) would be of that magnitude (~ 10^-43 s), hence there are no shorter time fractions.
We know a great deal more about this universe now, than 2000a ago, and we will know another great deal more in 2000a from now.

sure, i understand all that. but how can we empirically verify our theorizing about the planck era and the quark era and the hadron era, etc.? these events are historic, and thus singular and necessarily unrepeatable, and thus also not subject to experimental verification…

just not sure how stuff like that fits into your empiricist epistemology.

 

[AnAtheist]

john doran:

sure, i understand all that. but how can we empirically verify our theorizing about the planck era and the quark era and the hadron era, etc.? these events are historic, and thus singular and necessarily unrepeatable, and thus also not subject to experimental verification…

just not sure how stuff like that fits into your empiricist epistemology.

I see. You’re right, those events are unrepeatable, but the same laws that govern todays universe and the repeatable effects in it, governed those events. That makes up a consistent view of nature. Therefore the model of the universe scientists have developped so far is a ***valid ***model.

If we incorporate the Christian God into that model, we get quite a weird story. I will open a new thread for that: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=572141

 

[chris138]

Hi, I did not read all of the posts so I am apologizing if I am repeating what someone else has suggested.

Stop reading these stories of pain and suffering. Start focusing on positive things. Things you can do to make your life better. If you need to see a doctor for some help do it. There is alot of negative stuff out there and it is more than any of us can take if we focus on it. The Terri Schiavo case, abortion ect. are enough to take me over the edge, when I get too upset and caught up in it, I step back from it for awhile and do other things. Pain and suffering are a part of life, we can not change this. In the next world there will not be any. Another thing to remember is that we can not control others and the choices they make. I once heard someone say…maybe Karl Keating… that no one will be kicking and screaming on their way to hell-----it’s their choice, so apparently, while it is inconceivable to you and me–some will/have choose this.

Don’t focus on hell, yes it exists, but we should be pleasing God because we love Him and he loves us. Pray to saints to help you. I don’t know your story, but have seen another post of yours and it sounds like you are going thru some tough times right now. Pray for the strength abd grace to get through it one day at a time. If you are having suicidal thought, get some help!!!

Praying for you…God bless
chris

 

[trogiah]

Some thoughts on heaven and hell, crime and punishment:

Jesus states in parables and in plain words, the road to condemnation is taken by those who practice condemnation. The road to forgiveness is taken by those who practice forgiveness. The message is unmistakeably clear in reading the gospels.

The Christian or Jew or Muslim or atheist or Buddhist or whatever who practices forgiveness (and thus is effectively a follower of Christ ) will obtain forgiveness. The Christian or Jew or Muslim or atheist or Buddhist or whatever who practices condemnation, will earn condemnation, in the same measure with which it is practiced. Isn’t that fair?

Somebody somewhere came up with the idea that if a person breaks a law, especially one of the Ten Commandments, that they will go to hell. (Unless they go to confession?) When the Ten Commandments were given, the most explicit promise was “Follow these rules and you will have life.” The threats of destruction generally were only given to those who abandoned God entirely and did not even listen to his voice. Even these threats did not include the threat of eternal damnation.

Murder, Adultery, Stealing, Coveting, and all the lessor forms of these acts will definitely interfere with having a long and prosperous life. But the effects of those sins are limited in their effect and so their punishments are limited.

Hell comes from living a life of condemnation of others.

If you are afraid of Hell. practice forgiveness. And know that you don’t have to send anyone to Hell. Whether God does or not depends entirely on what is in the heart of the person. Something we never really can know about another person, Christian or otherwise.

peace

-JIm