Doubts about Hell, suffering. Please Help!

[SamCA]

Hermione:

I don’t know, if it’s between not having free will when it comes to choosing sins and BEING TORTURED FOREVER IN THE FIRES OF HELL, I would rather God just took away my free will whenever I was tempted to sin.

Yeah, I have to agree. A limitation on free will would be bad, but allowing people to be free and then tormenting them for eternity when they actually exercise that freedom is probably worse.

As for the suffering of others, sometimes this argument makes sense to me. But it’s VERY hard to come to terms with when I read stories of suffering. I was reading many stories of terrible suffering that Muslim women experience throughout their lives. I saw a documentary that had former political prisoners of North Korea recount the horrors they witnessed and the tortures they were subjected to. I read things about famines and human rights abuses in the former Soviet Union, I read things about forced prostitution of women and children, and many other horrors that human beings perpetrate against one another.

This is so horrible and so pointless. What’s the use in the suffering of a 10 year old child as he and his parents are put into a glass chamber and subjected to chemical weapons tests? (This is done in North Korea.) What’s the use in the suffering of a young woman who is hanged upside down while her husband beats her, pokes out her eyes, cuts off her ears etc. because he suspects her of having committed adultery (an actual story I read about a crime in Pakistan)?

Well, leaving aside for a second the question of Hell, I can actually see a pretty valid defense of Christianity here. Let’s be honest – everything you described above is something that some human being out there chose to do. It wasn’t God who gassed those North Korean families, it was the people who make up the North Korean government. We can wonder why God doesn’t intervene and save them, but hey, let’s give God the benefit of the doubt and assume that he has some very good reason for his largely non-interventionist policy as regards the actions of his free willed people on Earth. A lot of very intelligent Christian apologists have made some very good arguments in favor of this view – check out some of Plantinga’s writing, sometime.

What I have a harder time with, as regards the Problem of Evil, is the natural variety. People didn’t create sudden infant death syndrome. Cancer is hard-wired into the human genome, which implies that if we were designed, cancer was created intentionally. Viruses and bacteria are part of God’s Creation, if we are to believe the tenets of Christianity.

Why would a loving parent create things like that? It’d be like buying a rabid dog and locking it in a room with your children.

God can, why doesn’t He? This is really troubling to me.

Let us suppose, for a moment, that there is a compelling reason for allowing human will to be truly free. That God would truly love to jump in and save everyone in the nick of time like a divine superhero, but that for the greater good of all, he must restrain himself from doing so. I’m not convinced I buy it, but it seems at least possible.

What that still leaves me unable to explain is Hell. Let’s say that the people here arguing that people choose to separate themselves from God are totally right – are we to believe than an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being couldn’t figure out a better place to put all those who reject him than an eternal pit of torment?

If I love my kids, but they decide they hate me, I’ll probably be heartbroken. But I also probably won’t chain them up in the basement and hire a guy to torture them.

 

[SamCA]

STJOMO:

And, you think anybody with half a brain would go into that shop?

Of course not. Sadly, if you are to be believed, we already find ourselves in God’s Icecream Shoppe. The interesting thing is that you’re trying to justify his “shoot me in the head for ordering peanut butter cup” policy, and tell me my choice of ice cream flavors is entirely free.

 

[john_doran]

SamCA:

Of course not. Sadly, if you are to be believed, we already find ourselves in God’s Icecream Shoppe. The interesting thing is that you’re trying to justify his “shoot me in the head for ordering peanut butter cup,” and tell me my choice of ice cream flavors is entirely free.

again, i don’t get it: the choice not to eat any ice cream that would get you shot would presumably be the one made under duress and thus not free.

but this is entirely disanalogous to the example of hell, since people do make choices they believe will send them to hell…

 

[SamCA]

john doran:

again, i don’t get it: the choice not to eat any ice cream that would get you shot would presumably be the one made under duress and thus not free.

but this is entirely disanalogous to the example of hell, since people do make choices they believe will send them to hell…

Actually, that’s a very good point. Nobody – or at least hardly anybody – thinks they’re actually going to Hell. Either they feel they’re right with God, or they don’t really believe. The analogy breaks down in that customers at the ice cream shop know darn well that if they order the wrong thing, they’re toast.

I could stretch the analogy and try to make it make more sense, but it would get pretty silly pretty fast. So let us consign the God’s Icecream Shoppe analogy to the ash bin of history.

 

[AnAtheist]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Anatheist. You are right,to you God does not exist because you believe that a God would not create a Hell.

The “because” is misplaced.

The truth is that God did create a hell so that everyone could use their freewill.

As is the “so”. That is a perfect non sequitur. He could allow free will, and yet have not created Hell or not even created an afterlife. There is absolutely no logical connection.

 

[Hildebrand]

SamCA:

If I love my kids, but they decide they hate me, I’ll probably be heartbroken. But I also probably won’t chain them up in the basement and hire a guy to torture them.

So God hires the demons to torture people in hell. Are they unionized? I guess those who torture people on earth are also on the payroll of God. And the perpetrators of these crimes all ought to go to heaven, so they can do whatever they want in heaven.

 

[john_doran]

AnAtheist:

That is a perfect non sequitur. He could allow free will, and yet have not created Hell or not even created an afterlife. There is absolutely no logical connection.

you’re right, but i don’t think a logical entailment was being proposed; i think spokenword was simply stating what he takes to have been god’s actual intention in the creation of hell…

 

[kage_ar]

God gives us the choice to obey or disobey. If we disobey, there is a punishment. As a mother, I tell my son “if you disobey, this will be the punishment”. He is free to choose, and has full knowledge of the results of that choice. God does the same with us. As the Bible says, we choose between death and life.

God would be cruel if He never revealed the punishment for rejecting Him.

And remember, in order for someone to to to Hell, they must reject God - they make the choice.

 

[SamCA]

Hildebrand:

So God hires the demons to torture people in hell. Are they unionized?

Nah, strictly work for hire.

Seriously, though, even if God didn’t actually hire them, he knows they’re down there and yet (assuming the Hell doctrine is true) still keeps on shipping folks down to them.

I suppose the “locking your kids in a room with a rabid dog” analogy does fit a bit better, though.

I guess those who torture people on earth are also on the payroll of God. And the perpetrators of these crimes all ought to go to heaven, so they can do whatever they want in heaven.

I can’t help but think there could be a happy medium between Eternal Peace in the Beatific Vision of God and Satan & Pals’ Eternal Torture Funfest.

 

[SamCA]

kage_ar:

God gives us the choice to obey or disobey. If we disobey, there is a punishment. As a mother, I tell my son “if you disobey, this will be the punishment”. He is free to choose, and has full knowledge of the results of that choice. God does the same with us. As the Bible says, we choose between death and life.

If you told your child, “If you disobey, I will kill you. You are choosing between life and death.” and then killed him after he disobeyed you, you would be universally decried as a monster.

That’s the problem so many people have with this. The punishment is vastly in excess of the crime. Disobedience is not a crime worthy of eternal torment. I can hardly even think of a crime worth of eternal torment. Even the really bad ones – I could see Pol Pot deserving, I don’t know, a few millenia of torment, or something. But even history’s worst individuals didn’t inflict infinite harm.

So why do they deserve infinite harm inflicted on them?

 

[FCEGM]

God does not stop loving those in Hell, but it is not true that He experiences “mourning” in any way over their decision to separate themselves from Him forever. In God is all joy and peace and glory, thus there can be nothing in Himself which allows for eternal sadness - either in Himself or in those who participate in His glory.

A priest I know described Hell (and I believe he was quoting from some Saint) as God’s love experienced as fire; i.e., there is nothing of those spirits of the damned that can correspond and respond to love, and so God’s overwhelming love must necessarily be experienced as eternal fire and torment. Perhaps another way to express this is to consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one has to himself become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do.

 

[john_doran]

SamCA:

If you told your child, “If you disobey, I will kill you. You are choosing between life and death.” and then killed him after he disobeyed you, you would be universally decried as a monster.

sure. but what if you ***didn’t ***tell your adult son that if he puts his hand on the stove element he’ll get burned? and what if your son goes and places his hand on the stove after you’ve warned him? or what if, despite your warnings, your son goes out and gets drunk and drives and gets in a car accident in which he becomes a parapalegic?

hell is somewhere you choose to go, or something you choose to do.

SamCA:

That’s the problem so many people have with this. The punishment is vastly in excess of the crime. Disobedience is not a crime worthy of eternal torment. I can hardly even think of a crime worth of eternal torment. Even the really bad ones – I could see Pol Pot deserving, I don’t know, a few millenia of torment, or something. But even history’s worst individuals didn’t inflict infinite harm.

So why do they deserve infinite harm inflicted on them?

hell lasts forever because those there never ask for mercy.

 

[john_doran]

SamCA:

I suppose the “locking your kids in a room with a rabid dog” analogy does fit a bit better, though.

not as well as the “locking your***self ***in a room with a rabid dog” analogy fits, though.

 

[SamCA]

john doran:

hell lasts forever because those there never ask for mercy.

Actually, I have no problem with this interpretation of Hell. It’s one thing to say that people chose to disobey God during life, so after they die God judges them and casts them into his specially built eternal torture chamber. This certainly seems to be the more accepted view.

If, however, as you describe, God is up in Heaven saying, “Seriously, guys, you can come out of there any time you want. The door’s open. Feel free to leave whenever you get sick of the heat,” and everyone in Hell chooses to stay anyway, well, one can hardly blame God for that.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

SamCA:

Actually, I have no problem with this interpretation of Hell. It’s one thing to say that people chose to disobey God during life, so after they die God judges them and casts them into his specially built eternal torture chamber. This certainly seems to be the more accepted view.

If, however, as you describe, God is up in Heaven saying, “Seriously, guys, you can come out of there any time you want. The door’s open. Feel free to leave whenever you get sick of the heat,” and everyone in Hell chooses to stay anyway, well, one can hardly blame God for that.

Hi Sam. After we die we are judged and sentenced emmediatly. Once we are sentenced to hell we will never be released. It is for eternity.Scriptures describe what Hell is like. There is fire,nashing of teeth, screaming,crying,suffering,ect. Hell is not a place you want to be. Its our choice.Hell is for those who reject Gods Mercy. God Bless

 

[SamCA]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Sam. After we die we are judged and sentenced emmediatly. Once we are sentenced to hell we will never be released. It is for eternity.Scriptures describe what Hell is like. There is fire,nashing of teeth, screaming,crying,suffering,ect. Hell is not a place you want to be. Its our choice.Hell is for those who reject Gods Mercy. God Bless

Yeah, see, this is what I’m talking about. This view of Hell is one that, even if I knew it were correct, I would never be able to accept as anything other than the act of an insane cosmic dictator who tortures anyone who dares question him. Saddam Hussein as deity.

Mr. Doran’s view, though, seems rather more just.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

SamCA:

Yeah, see, this is what I’m talking about. This view of Hell is one that, even if I knew it were correct, I would never be able to accept as anything other than the act of an insane cosmic dictator who tortures anyone who dares question him. Saddam Hussein as deity.

Mr. Doran’s view, though, seems rather more just.

Hi Sam, This view is scriptual, I,m sorry Hell is not described to your liking.God made it not me. God Bless

 

[john_doran]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Sam, This view is scriptual, I,m sorry Hell is not described to your liking.God made it not me. God Bless

well, there’s nothing unscriptural about the view that people remain in hell only because they hate god and do not want to leave (or at least that they hate god more than they hate their suffering).

 

[STJOMO]

Suppose you lived in a house where you were free to come and go as you please, but you were told that if you go outside you’d be ripped apart by hungry lion waiting just outside the door. Meanwhile, you grow up learning through a variety of means (parents, teachers, written materials, videos, ad infinitem) just how dangerous going outside can be and those materials show you in graphic detail just what hungry lions can do to you, once your all alone, outside.

Yet, you ignore all of those lessons and decide for yourself --either because you don’t believe the lions exist or you decide that, since you do have a free will to decide for yourself, you’re going outside anyway.

Maybe you stuck your hand outside earlier and pulled it back before it could get ripped off. Maybe you tried it a number of times. Then, you go to the master of the house (or one of his duly authorized representatives), confess and repent. You are forgiven. Most of us stick our hands out the door on occasion. The fortunate ones pull them back and confess our transgression and seek to repent.

But, let’s say that’s not enough for you. So, you go outside. The lions are awaiting and immediately spring on you.

The decision was yours. You live (and die) with the consequences of the choice that you made.

There are all kinds of warnings out there about not listening to the lessons of God and the Church His Son left behind and His Holy Spirit continues to guide as a legacy for us during our short stay on Earth.

You ignore those warnings at your own peril.

This is the time – our earthly life – to receive Our Lord into our hearts and repent of our attraction to sin. To expect God to save someone who already has chosen evil, dies unrepentant and is, therefore, condemned for eternity, is the height of absurdity.

 

[4_marks]

Hermione:

I’m having doubts and am hoping that someone can help me.

I am having trouble understanding why God does nothing to stop this. God loves us, Jesus died for us, but why doesn’t He do anything to help those innocent people who are suffering so terribly?

It’s easier if at least those people can go to Heaven afterwards…

But even this is not certain. That’s another thing I am having trouble with right now.

Your heart is in the right place. The concern you have for others and the sense of confusion at the injustice in this world indicate to me that God is, indeed, at work.

We do not like suffering (unless we are sadistic). We desire to be happy and fulfilled, and, hopefully, we desire this for others, even though we get frustrated and discouraged at times. But suffering is a part of this present life…something we all have to face in one way or another in our lives. Some have more suffering than others. I cannot explain why, but I trust that, through it all, God will deliver us to what we are intended to become. Even death, itself, cannot separate us from God’s everlasting love for us.

God knows everything. God sees our suffering. Trust that God is just and will make everything right in time. God is merciful, too, and forgives us each and every time that we seek forgiveness from Him.

I can tell that you are have a good heart toward God. God has been working in you, and will continue to do so. Let the love and compassion that you have for others motivate you to love and serve others. Blessed Mother Teresa started by simply comforting the dying on the streets of Calcutta. God worked through her to “do something” to address their suffering and hardship.

God bless you! May Jesus’ holy face shine upon your heart. May our dear mother, Mary, most holy, console you as you increase in faith, in hope and in love.