Down syndrome

[GhostMan]

But think about what you are saying…
Original sin was Adam and Eve’s disobedience to god’s command, right? And his punishment to them was banishment and eventual death…but he didn’t stop there. He also transposed their punishment on all their descendents, so essentially we are all still paying for and suffering under Adam and Eve’s punishment…according to the bible. All pain, sickness and sorrow is a result of god’s punishment of the original sin. Not really the nicest guy is he?

If you mean what you say, then you are a very sad and hopeless man.

You claim God is mean and petty, yet the very evidence in front of us contradicts that. God is Just. All true justice flows from that nature, just as all true love flows from the fact that God is Love. Not God has Love, or God is capable of being loving. No God is Love; God is Just; God is also Mercy. All these things are equally part of His nature.

Adam and Eve were placed in paradise and given food, enjoyable work, companionship. The also had frequent conversations with God. They had to be quite content. Then, breaking the one rule God had given them, they exposed themselves to God the Just. Their creator had told them the punishment, and since He cannot lie, they were self-condemned. God did not condemn them, Adam did; Eve did. God is no more to blame for their sins then He is for mine.

God is not solely Just, however. He is also Mercy; something we see for the first time in history at the fall. Before that, God did not allow His mercy to be exhibited to the angels that rebelled. They were cast out of Heaven and into Hell. Only man received Mercy.

And, oh what mercy that was. He took a condemned man – condemned not only to the first death , the death of the flesh, but also to the eternal death – and provided a means of redemption. Christ was to be our redemption.

God was made flesh through Mary and the Holy Spirit. God the Just poured out His wrath on the only innocent man at the cross. All Hell, literally, was poured out upon Him as He bore our sins and became a substitute for us.

Because of that, we are adopted into God’s house. We are sons and daughters of the Most High when we are united to Him through Christ. This is worthy of being mocked and rejected?

If you believe in God, then you must believe He is Just and demands a payment for sin. Either you can make that payment in eternal Hell, or Christ can make that payment for you. But only if you also believe God is Mercy. Otherwise, you are a dead-man-walking. And, if you are rejecting God’s mercy, then you are blind as well. I understand how hopeless that must make one feel.

For every aspect of God’s justice you want to provide, I’ll post other acts of Mercy. His mercy, in fact, is all the more powerful because of His true Justness. He cannot abide sin, we cannot escape sin on our own. We are powerless; He is all powerful and provided redemption.

To me, in both eternal and human terms, redemption is the single most powerful force ever unleashed. It means we all have the ability to be more than we are, even here on earth. We’re not trapped in our genes, our upbringing, our bad habits, our experiences. We’re capable of experiencing temporal redemption and changing our lives. Hope is always present.

 

[PennitentMan]

If you mean what you say, then you are a very sad and hopeless man.

Awww, Gotta luv the warm and fuzzy Christian love feeling over here…right off the bat too!
I’m actually very happy. My life is going great these days and it’s getting better and better, especially the further away from the church I move.

And the above quote did not really address my comments, so, can I assume that you agree with them then?

You claim God is mean and petty, yet the very evidence in front of us contradicts that.

Evidence? Stifle a giggle There is no evidence of god at all, except for the bible….have you read the old testament?

God is Just. All true justice flows from that nature, just as all true love flows from the fact that God is Love. Not God has Love, or God is capable of being loving. No God is Love; God is Just; God is also Mercy. All these things are equally part of His nature.

god is also cruel, genocidal, infantacidal, jealous, unforgiving, racist and homophobic….It just depends what page you are on I guess.

Adam and Eve were placed in paradise and given food, enjoyable work, companionship. They also had frequent conversations with God. They had to be quite content. Then, breaking the one rule God had given them, they exposed themselves to God the Just. Their creator had told them the punishment, and since He cannot lie, they were self-condemned. God did not condemn them, Adam did; Eve did. God is no more to blame for their sins then He is for mine.

I don’t know if you have children or not, but if my child (and yes, to god, Adam and Eve were children, not just because he made them, but also because of their grasp on reality vs. his…), disobeys my command on the first try, I don’t throw him out of the house and condemn him to death.
And god’s words were that if they eat of the tree they would surely die. Yes….but he took that word to the extreme…like actually using a negative loop-hole and inserted into that “die” other things like pain and suffering, and the worst of all is that he made that punishment in its entirety relevant for all generations of man. Now, is that not being just a bit petty?

God is not solely Just, however. He is also Mercy; something we see for the first time in history at the fall. Before that, God did not allow His mercy to be exhibited to the angels that rebelled. They were cast out of Heaven and into Hell. Only man received Mercy.

Man recevied mercy by only eventually dying, not instantaneously…oh, and all future generations suffer, have pain and die too. Yah….mercy.
Again I ask…would you do that to your children….ever? I have seen great capacity for love in parents, none of this I have seen in god.

And, oh what mercy that was. He took a condemned man – condemned not only to the first death , the death of the flesh, but also to the eternal death – and provided a means of redemption. Christ was to be our redemption.

God was made flesh through Mary and the Holy Spirit. God the Just poured out His wrath on the only innocent man at the cross. All Hell, literally, was poured out upon Him as He bore our sins and became a substitute for us.

Because of that, we are adopted into God’s house. We are sons and daughters of the Most High when we are united to Him through Christ. This is worthy of being mocked and rejected?

nice sermon…but it only works if you actually believe it and also if you can overcome the idea of the nasty, mean god first.

If you believe in God,

which I don’t.

then you must believe He is Just and demands a payment for sin.

The bible shows me that he is not just, that he punishes way harder and swifter than the crime deserves. He is also irrational.
Here’s an example.
One guy reaches out his hand to steady the ark of the covenant when it’s jostled, and he drops dead instantly.
Or (a more fitting example) Adam and Eve’s first mistake, and all humanity suffers.
But Lot and his daughters commit incest and it’s all part of god’s plan.
Or Lot offering his virgin daughters to the angry mod to get gang-raped, and it’s all part of god’s plan.

See? Irrational. It doesn’t make sense.

Either you can make that payment in eternal Hell, or Christ can make that payment for you. But only if you also believe God is Mercy. Otherwise, you are a dead-man-walking. And, if you are rejecting God’s mercy, then you are blind as well. I understand how hopeless that must make one feel.

it’s not hopeless at all. If there really is a god, which I doubt, and he is the type of person we see in the bible, then I really don’t want his mercy, because it comes at a terrible price. It’s like mob-extortion. Our love and faith and worship is forcefully collected from us with threats of eternal hellfire and damnation.
Spending eternity in heaven will be like a perpetual North-Korean dictatorship.

For every aspect of God’s justice you want to provide, I’ll post other acts of Mercy. His mercy, in fact, is all the more powerful because of His true Justness. He cannot abide sin, we cannot escape sin on our own. We are powerless; He is all powerful and provided redemption.

If he is all powerful he can chose to stop suffering of innocents (to bring this sermon back onto the thread topic). But, either he is all powerful and just doesn’t care, or he just isn’t all powerful. His absence proves that.

To me, in both eternal and human terms, redemption is the single most powerful force ever unleashed. It means we all have the ability to be more than we are, even here on earth. We’re not trapped in our genes, our upbringing, our bad habits, our experiences. We’re capable of experiencing temporal redemption and changing our lives. Hope is always present.

that’s not redemption you are describing, that’s just good ol’ fashioned humanity. Humans have the power to break free of bad habits, and upbringing….my wife and I are testaments to that, and we didn’t need religion to do that for us. Hope is always present, but it’s not found in god…it’s found within each of us.

You honestly just give me the impression of someone how is quite high on the bible but with no real substance behind their posts, you know?

 

[gardenswithkids]

Awww, Gotta luv the warm and fuzzy Christian love feeling over here…right off the bat too!
I’m actually very happy. My life is going great these days and it’s getting better and better, especially the further away from the church I move…

Hi again. For some reason I keep thinking about you and your posts here and on the large family thread previously.

Right now I’m reading the book “Making Sense Out of Suffering” by Peter Kreeft. And I just finished reading another book by him, and I can’t find the really good quote about agnosticism/atheism that made me think of you. (Wasn’t insulting to them, if I find again I might send to you.) But this quote also made me think of you and what some of the other posters here with children facing disabilties found from other Christians.

"How easy, how inevitable for the spiritual descendants of Job to look up with the big, betrayed eyes of a hurt child into the face of the Father, now apparently far away, and begin to resent him, or even to hate him.

I will now tell you my most terrible secret.

I get very mad at God sometimes, especially when he lets me get hurt. In fact, I will let a million cats out of the bag. I will tell all the doubters and unbelievers who are reading this a terrible secret most Christians do not tell: I think almost every believing Christian, and probably almost every every believing Jew and Mostlem too, gets mad at God sometimes. This is a pretty well-kept secret, especially among evangelicals and fundamentalists. I confess it not to cause scandal or to help the cause of unbelief but simply because it is true, and I believe that we always need truth just as we always need love, because those are two of the attributes of God…"

I don’t know about the rest of the people here, but I confess that I’ve been mad at God sometimes too. I remember hearing or reading something by Kimberly Hahn where she talks about how she got mad at God, but that somehow it didn’t feel “safe” to do that, yet she did and He was big enough to take it. I think when a lot of Christians here other Christians talking in ways that seem mad at God or that ask unanswerable questions, we get uncomfortable and don’t say the right things because we don’t think it’s “safe.” And since we fear the person is doing something “unsafe” we don’t know what to say, and we may say stupid things or “theologically correct things” that don’t help the person whose going through a rough time.

Basically, I’m saying that I don’t know exactly what to say, but I think that if you want to be mad at God, it’s okay. I think He’s big enough to take it. And I think He’ll still love you regardless of how you feel or think about Him.

 

[PennitentMan]

Basically, I’m saying that I don’t know exactly what to say, but I think that if you want to be mad at God, it’s okay. I think He’s big enough to take it. And I think He’ll still love you regardless of how you feel or think about Him.

Hello again!

Thanks for the post, I appreciate the thoughts.

I understand what you are trying to say, I really do, but the thing is that I am not upset at god…because I don’t believe he exists.
I’m mad at the church that fool people into these teachings and force them to live a very hard lives for something that is not provable at all and makes no rational sense.
And I feel sorry for the people who carry on under these terrible conditions out of guilt and fear, because the church has the whole “this is god’s will and his direct word” thing sown shut so tight that most folks just carry on suffering out of fear of hell. That’s not the love that I’ve heard them talk about on Sundays. It’s hypocritical.

The problem is that one can’t do anything about it, can’t speak up against it or disapprove publically of it, because you’ll be labelled as being in heresy and excommunicated anyway.

Anyway, I do get a bit riled up when I’m on here because it reminds me what’s wrong and how good folks suffer because of it.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Hello again!

Thanks for the post, I appreciate the thoughts.

I understand what you are trying to say, I really do, but the thing is that I am not upset at god…because I don’t believe he exists.
I’m mad at the church that fool people into these teachings and force them to live a very hard lives for something that is not provable at all and makes no rational sense.
And I feel sorry for the people who carry on under these terrible conditions out of guilt and fear, because the church has the whole “this is god’s will and his direct word” thing sown shut so tight that most folks just carry on suffering out of fear of hell. That’s not the love that I’ve heard them talk about on Sundays. It’s hypocritical.

The problem is that one can’t do anything about it, can’t speak up against it or disapprove publically of it, because you’ll be labelled as being in heresy and excommunicated anyway.

Anyway, I do get a bit riled up when I’m on here because it reminds me what’s wrong and how good folks suffer because of it.

So, forgive me for asking this…but why do you stay around here? on a Catholic board? Where’ we’ll talk about God, the Church, and so on, like we actually believe in it? If you don’t believe, then what’s your purpose in being here? I’m asking this in all honestly, not asking you to go. What makes you stay here? What makes you post? (hmmm, perhaps this should be a new thread, because we’ve hijacked this thread enough)

 

[PennitentMan]

So, forgive me for asking this…but why do you stay around here? on a Catholic board? Where’ we’ll talk about God, the Church, and so on, like we actually believe in it? If you don’t believe, then what’s your purpose in being here? I’m asking this in all honestly, not asking you to go. What makes you stay here? What makes you post? (hmmm, perhaps this should be a new thread, because we’ve hijacked this thread enough)

Hello. it’s a fair question, one that I’m not sure I know the answer to…but somethgin I wrote above kinda ties into it…and yeah, maybe this should be a new thread, but I’m way too sleepy to even think of how to phrase a new thread, or what to title it! Lol!

Here’s the quote I’m referring to:

pennitentman:

I’m mad at the church that fool people into these teachings and force them to live a very hard lives for something that is not provable at all and makes no rational sense.
And I feel sorry for the people who carry on under these terrible conditions out of guilt and fear, because the church has the whole “this is god’s will and his direct word” thing sown shut so tight that most folks just carry on suffering out of fear of hell.

I want to try to show the other side of this teaching…the potential it has to hurt people and the harm it can cause.
I know I’m not alone onthis board in this.
I also am not going about it in a very overt kind of way, to try to deconvert people, but whenver there are threads like these, I want to give the “other side” of the argument, I want to show people the hurt that it cause to families so that they can look at it with open eyes and not blind faith, you know?
I hope I expressed myself correctly, it’s late here

PM

 

[GhostMan]

I have to say, this is borderline trolling. If I went to a Wicca board, created an accounted titled BlackCatLover and proceeded to make condescending comments about dancing naked under the moon, collecting herbs and sacred days they would not treat me well. If I further started suggesting they all ride brooms, make gingerbread to temp children into their ovens and have warts on their nose, they would probably invite me to leave - with gusto.

That, friend, is exactly what you are doing here.

You are treating our God as a monster and suggesting that He is the author of pain and sin. You are mocking the beliefs of many in the guise of debate; you’re not that clever, actually. Your arguments are as old and tired as the hills.

This is also not the forum for apoligetix. It is the the family life forum.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[PennitentMan]

I have to say, this is borderline trolling. If I went to a Wicca board, created an accounted titled BlackCatLover and proceeded to make condescending comments about dancing naked under the moon, collecting herbs and sacred days they would not treat me well. If I further started suggesting they all ride brooms, make gingerbread to temp children into their ovens and have warts on their nose, they would probably invite me to leave - with gusto.

That, friend, is exactly what you are doing here.

You are treating our God as a monster and suggesting that He is the author of pain and sin. You are mocking the beliefs of many in the guise of debate; you’re not that clever, actually. Your arguments are as old and tired as the hills.

This is also not the forum for apoligetix. It is the the family life forum.

Thanks for stopping by.

Dude, you have no idea how I got here and what my history is.

If you actually take a while, go over my historic posts, read them and actually understand them , then you’ll understand more about a) why I’m here, b) how long I’ve been here, c) why my screen name is what it is.
So until then, back the hell off and stop posting just to pick fights.

Yeah, this is me before coffee, now go away.

 

[GhostMan]

Friend, I’m just not that interested. I’m not picking fights, I’m asking you to stop being troll-istic.

shrug Peace be with you.

Good luck with life.

signing out

 

[PennitentMan]

Friend, I’m just not that interested. I’m not picking fights, I’m asking you to stop being troll-istic.

shrug Peace be with you.

Good luck with life.

signing out

Yeah, whatever. Do your homework before you post **** about people. Now go away.

PS: Gawd, it’s hard not to rip you a new one!

 

[shannyk]

Hello. it’s a fair question, one that I’m not sure I know the answer to…but somethgin I wrote above kinda ties into it…and yeah, maybe this should be a new thread, but I’m way too sleepy to even think of how to phrase a new thread, or what to title it! Lol!

Here’s the quote I’m referring to:

I want to try to show the other side of this teaching…the potential it has to hurt people and the harm it can cause.
I know I’m not alone onthis board in this.
I also am not going about it in a very overt kind of way, to try to deconvert people, but whenver there are threads like these, I want to give the “other side” of the argument, I want to show people the hurt that it cause to families so that they can look at it with open eyes and not blind faith, you know?
I hope I expressed myself correctly, it’s late here

PM

PM this is not another side this is your side and you choice in where you have decided your misplaced anger and resentment will take you. Most posters here are asking advice because they want to expand their Faith in the midst of all these trials and tribulations that are marriage, not run away from it. I don’t see how you are offering any help in this area. All these posts of yours are you airing your grievances with the Church, which is fine, but don’t assume that anyone is being helped by it but you. You assumption that people are following Church teaching without any knowledge is also rather insulting.

Pm you have a lot to share, I wish you would share it in a more productive way.

 

[PennitentMan]

PM this is not another side this is your side and you choice in where you have decided your misplaced anger and resentment will take you. Most posters here are asking advice because they want to expand their Faith in the midst of all these trials and tribulations that are marriage, not run away from it. I don’t see how you are offering any help in this area. All these posts of yours are you airing your grievances with the Church, which is fine, but don’t assume that anyone is being helped by it but you. You assumption that people are following Church teaching without any knowledge is also rather insulting.

Pm you have a lot to share, I wish you would share it in a more productive way.

I’m offering my experiences in life as a parent to a child with Down’s Syndrome and how the church influenced that. I think it’s pretty relevant since posters here are also prentls of children with Down’s Syndrome and the church has influence on them too.

I understand I don’t always have the most positive things to say about the church, but I know that I’m not alone in this either. However, at least you’re not phrasing your posts like Ghost*** so I will try to be civil about things.

 

[shannyk]

I’m offering my experiences in life as a parent to a child with Down’s Syndrome and how the church influenced that. I think it’s pretty relevant since posters here are also prentls of children with Down’s Syndrome and the church has influence on them too.

I understand I don’t always have the most positive things to say about the church, but I know that I’m not alone in this either. However, at least you’re not phrasing your posts like Ghost*** so I will try to be civil about things.

PM I appreciate your civility very much, I hope I came across as civilly as you have.

I do know all about you son with downs syndrome, I have actually kept up with your posts for quite some time. I know the changes that you have been through.

I have 2 children with special needs. One has severe autism, mental retardation (IQ of 37) ADHD and seizures. I’m facing many of the same challenges you are and then some.

How does taking God out of the equation ameliorate any of that though?

 

[Patrick2340]

Unfortunately, I think different people react in different ways to rough times in their lives. When our daughter was born with Down syndrome, my wife found Christ and converted to the Catholic faith. Our daughter’s Down syndrome is the sole reason my wife is a Catholic today. I know if I didn’t have my faith to give me hope, I would have had a much more difficult time dealing with my daughter’s diagnosis.

I questioned my faith a lot in my youth. I still have doubts every now and then. Common sense and logic always bring me back to my belief in God and the one true church He founded, the Catholic Church.

 

[PennitentMan]

PM I appreciate your civility very much, I hope I came across as civilly as you have.

I do know all about you son with Down’s Syndrome, I have actually kept up with your posts for quite some time. I know the changes that you have been through.

I have 2 children with special needs. One has severe autism, mental retardation (IQ of 37) ADHD and seizures. I’m facing many of the same challenges you are and then some.

How does taking God out of the equation ameliorate any of that though?

No doubt, I really feel for you, that definitely sounds like a hard road for you and I wish you all the best on the road ahead.

As to your question, I’m not sure how much of my journey you followed. I apologise if the following will sounds harsh, again, it’s my views on our situation in life.

For me personally, once I realized that there isn’t a god, (or in the remote possibility that there is one, he’s so uninvolved in our lives that he does not even feature) it complicated things much less.

Finally it made more sense that my boy wasn’t born because of anyone’s sin, or because god was angry with him or because of something Adam and Eve (Imaginary people) did. I don’t have to tell him one day that because of someone else’s faults a long, long time ago, he has to suffer this way, or that god thinks less of him than someone else. See Leviticus 21 about disabilities.

It also removes the emotional aspect of begging and pleading with god for help, strength, assistance, faith, endurance and no help arrives. Pinning all our hopes on some invisible person that is not involved, does not answer prayer and does not care about our daily lives is an exercise in futility.
Even if, (BIG if) he is there, he’s not helping anyway, so why bother asking and pleading? It’s pointless and a waste of time and energy, physical and emotional. Rather apply that time and energy to things that matter, getting through the day. Realize that you are strong enough as a person to do it on your own, which is what happens in the end anyway.
You know, like the old saying…”god helps those who helps themselves”
It’s basically is a good way of telling you that god’s not really there, but it will seem like your prayers are being answered if you perform the tasks yourself that you are praying for.
That was very liberating for me.

See? It helps everyone. It helps the person in question not have any thoughts of being inferior in god’s eyes and it helps the caregiver focusing their daily tasks better in stead of being distracted and keeping false hope alive of someone…or something coming to help.

Oh, it also frees up your Sunday (Sorry, bad joke, I know, I’m in a funny mood today…must be too much coffee and that twisted post first thing this morning that did it. Lol!)

 

[bgic]

PM, I thought I would let you know that it is not “Down’s Syndrome”, but rather “Down syndrome”. Refer to any of the national websites for Ds to learn about the correct terminology…

 

[PennitentMan]

PM, I thought I would let you know that it is not “Down’s Syndrome”, but rather “Down syndrome”. Refer to any of the national websites for Ds to learn about the correct terminology…

Yeah, it’s my stupid spell check that does that. Sorry.

 

[budgie2]

Hi. I am wondering what the church has to say about people being born with genetic disorders? My son was born with Down syndrome. I am struggling to find meaning in it. God doesn’t make mistakes, does He? So, is my son being burdeneded with his disorder for a reason? Is it punishment of some sort or is it a gift of some sort?

He is 9 months old now and I have been searching for the meaning of this for 9 months now. I am so glad I found this website. Any thoughts or opinions will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

I have got two disabled brothers (with mental illness for 25 years) but I do not have Down Syndrome in my family. My mum always feels that sick children help us to care for other people although I cannot personally explain why a person would be born with Down Syndrome. I personally feel a bad child is probably worse than a sick child and a child with Down Syndrome could also be a good child and go to heaven.

 

[monicatholic]

Finally it made more sense that my boy wasn’t born because of anyone’s sin, or because god was angry with him or because of something Adam and Eve (Imaginary people) did.

my grandmother (a practical athiest) recently asked me if there was any hope for Naomi. she said precisely that, “is there any hope for Naomi?” i genuinely laughed. and laughed. she said, “why are you laughing?” i told her, “Grandma, there’s more HOPE for Naomi than there is for you or me!” “How is that?” she querried, annoyed. “Because her HOPES for heaven will not be marred by sin! her capacity to sin will remain childlike, maybe for her whole life.” my grandmother was very annoyed, “That’s not the hope I was talking about.”

But that’s the HOPE ***I ***was talking about.

His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. (john 9:2)

yeah, man. that’s what I’m talking about. the works of God ARE visible through my daughter, Naomi, who was born with special needs associated with Down Syndrome.

the works of God are VERY visible through her. you should see how she changed our family-- for the better, i swear. absolutely for the better.

 

[PennitentMan]

my grandmother (a practical athiest) recently asked me if there was any hope for Naomi. she said precisely that, “is there any hope for Naomi?” i genuinely laughed. and laughed. she said, “why are you laughing?” i told her, “Grandma, there’s more HOPE for Naomi than there is for you or me!” “How is that?” she querried, annoyed. “Because her HOPES for heaven will not be marred by sin! her capacity to sin will remain childlike, maybe for her whole life.” my grandmother was very annoyed, “That’s not the hope I was talking about.”

But that’s the HOPE ***I ***was talking about.

Of course your grandma was annoyed, you didn’t answer her question.

For us (atheists), the hope that you spoke about is totally irrelevant. That’s why. No offense intended, just to maybe help you understand where your grandma was coming from and her concerns, right?